really my only major qualm (not enough bandwith for me to list my problems with the dems)....

Abortion/fertility drugs/stem cell/ religion/science issue

Ok, I don't want to debate these issues, but rather I want to discuss some hypocrisy.

Conservative Christians - "We can't allow abortion/contraceptives/stem cell research because we would be playing God by interefereing with life processes"

What about fertility drugs when these people have 17 kids at once and praise God for their miracle? Or even the death penalty (which I for the most part support) how can you be pro-life but support the death penalty? It just seems like a HUGE contradiction. Why do insurance policies cover fertility drugs but not birth control. They are "unnaturally" affect life processes...

Can someone explain this to me?

No.

i share your feelings.

expect the gop-walks-on-water crowd to come out swinging now...

Quoted: What about fertility drugs when these people have 17 kids at once and praise God for their miracle?

My take on it is that people need to quite waiting until they're 40 to have kids.

Or even the death penalty (which I for the most part support) how can you be pro-life but support the death penalty? It just seems like a HUGE contradiction. Why do insurance policies cover fertility drugs but not birth control. They are "unnaturally" affect life processes... Can someone explain this to me?

Being pro-life means protecting unborn children who have done nothing from being hacked to death.  Being pro-death penalty means punishing the guilty for the crimes they have committed.  Those two are mutually exclusive.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

Well, and its NOT that I dont necessarily agree with them, but I don't want to get into that until someone answers my first question. I just see it as a contradiction that no one has been able to explain to me.

I'm not sure that so many Christians are pro fertility drug?  I don't see it as a big problem except for the fetuses that are destroyed in the process.  As for the ones that use contraception, you are preventing life from being created.  That is a different thing from destroying a life that already exists.

Capital punishment is ending a life that is dangerous and destructive to the whole of society.  The criminal made choices that resulted in his getting the death penalty.  A fetus makes no such choice.

Any other problems I can help you with.

My take on it is that people need to quite waiting until they're 40 to have kids.

Thats what my roomate said. Then she said, but people arent meant to have kids at that age. Same thing with Viagra - there is a reason why 60 year old people arent supposed to get it up. Can you imagine being a teen with 75 year old parents?

Being pro-life means protecting unborn children who have done nothing from being hacked to death. Being pro-death penalty means punishing the guilty for the crimes they have committed. Those two are mutually exclusive.

I understand that, but isnt it still deciding who deserves to live and who deserves to die? I guess the same could be said about war or self defense, but thats different. I mean, if we have ways to protect society from these people without killing them, isnt deciding to do so anyways not our decision?

The "religious" people I know who are very pro-life do not support the death penalty. But I see your point the "republican platform" is a bit contradictory.

Unborn are innocent victims.
Convicted murderers are the same as enemy warriors.
They need to die for society to function.

Oh yeah, the Republican Party is not the Christian Party.
However, it is the party many Christians belong to.
So, GOP can support death penalty, while Christians should be less likely to do so.

Capital punishment is ending a life that is dangerous and destructive to the whole of society. The criminal made choices that resulted in his getting the death penalty. A fetus makes no such choice.

That's a really good point - he knew the penalty ahead of time, could have made a different choice. I can buy that.

You are seeing a contradiction between the value of innocent life and the punishment of the guilty? It is called JUSTICE. Human life has inherent value as we are created in the immage of God. The innocent deserve a chance at life and while those guilty of capital crimes have value, they cannot be allowed to exist where they pose a danger to the righteous, especially if they have proven beyond any rehabilitation.

The fertility drug thing I agree is over the top. If your not fertile and can't be made so without creating a new problem of having to kill off excessive numbers of embryos, adopt. Have your children while you are still young enough to be a parent and not a grand parent. Planerench out.

There is a HUGE FREAKING DIFFERENCE between taking the life of an [un-born] child and taking the life of a convicted murderer.

If you can not see that then, well I don't know what to tell you.

I say this as an agnostic anti abortion, pro death penalty mostly republican.

Oh yeah, the Republican Party is not the Christian Party. However, it is the party many Christians belong to. So, GOP can support death penalty, while Christians should be less likely to do so.

That is very true too - I don't mean to generalize.

Ratters made a good point on the death penalty above. The criminal knew what his punishment could be for committing the crime. He made the choice, and therefore is the one responsible for his death. I can buy that.

(I am pro-death penalty by the way, at least in ideology. Some of the screw ups that seem to have occurred are a bit troubling though)

I am a CHristian and a Republican.  I do not support fertility drugs.  I am against abortion (murder of the innocent)) and pro- death penality(punishment of the guilty).


What else you got kidddo?

Sgatr15

What about fertility drugs when these people have 17 kids at once and praise God for their miracle?

I do disagree with families having hoards of children.  But if a couple are having dificulty conceiving a child naturally and in good faith, I believe they have every right to seek assistance.

Or even the death penalty (which I for the most part support) how can you be pro-life but support the death penalty?

I've never known a fetus to murder anyone.  Only the guilty deserve to die.

Why do insurance policies cover fertility drugs but not birth control.

People do not choose to be infertile.  However, if people do not want to have kids, two other very effective alternatives are available.  Abstinence and condoms.

Quoted: The "religious" people I know who are very pro-life do not support the death penalty. But I see your point the "republican platform" is a bit contradictory.

It is not contradictory, I don't believe there are many Republicans having 17 children by fertility drugs.  I would guess that is mostly Democrats.

You can be pro life and support the death penalty.  Those people are being punished for something they did that was very bad.  Unborn babies have done nothing wrong.

I am not against stem cell research, I just don't think the Government (my tax money) should pay for it.  If it is so great let private industry fund it.  

Quoted: really my only major qualm (not enough bandwith for me to list my problems with the dems).... Abortion/fertility drugs/stem cell/ religion/science issue Ok, I don't want to debate these issues, but rather I want to discuss some hypocrisy. Conservative Christians - "We can't allow abortion/contraceptives/stem cell research because we would be playing God by interefereing with life processes" Actually, the pro-lifes oppose abortion, euthenasia, and the destruction of embryos to harvest stem cells as 'destroying a human life'. The CATHOLIC prohibition on using birth control is unique to that denomination What about fertility drugs when these people have 17 kids at once and praise God for their miracle?Only Christian Scientists are opposed to drugs & medicine Or even the death penalty (which I for the most part support) how can you be pro-life but support the death penalty? It just seems like a HUGE contradiction. God supports the Death Penalty, he ordained it in the OT. God does not support murder. That is the official justification Why do insurance policies cover fertility drugs but not birth control. They are "unnaturally" affect life processes... The 'religeous conservative' view is that for singles, the best birth control is a zipped zipper.... Since insurance won't restrict it to married cuuples, they oppose it being provided. But that is a PRIVATE, not a PUBLIC issue, between companies & customers Can someone explain this to me?

Oh, one note, many Republicans/Conservatives dislike Roe Vs Wade for reasons other than abortion...

Specifically, the Supreme Court decided it has the power to create a 'Right to Privacy' out of thin air, by declaring the existance of a 'Penumbra of the 14th'....

For folks like me, it's about a Kangaroo Kourt going hog-wild & creating non-existant rights based on the personal beliefs of the justices, not the written law....

Quoted: i share your feelings. expect the gop-walks-on-water crowd to come out swinging now...

+1

I understand the philosophical argument between abortion and the death penalty, but I don't necessarily buy it...at least not all the time.

Abortion is the unnatural ending of life, and an innocent life at that - yet we have no qualms executing criminals that were born to irresponsible, abusive or otherwise crappy parents. Once that "innocent" leaves it's crack-whore mother's vagina, the Christian right has very little problem condemning the choices of a child born into an environment which almost guarantees poor choices.

I don't have any answers or think abortion is a wonderful thing, nor do I want it to be a crime-prevention tool, but there is a certain hypocricy to guarding life with a holier-than-thou christian mindset, then abandoning the reality that alot of kids who started out fresh and clean grow up to be shitty human beings, through no fault of their own.

It's a very complicated issue, where blowhards smack their gavel and declare it a black and white one. It's not a simple thing, nor will it ever be.

...how can you be pro-life but support the death penalty? It just seems like a HUGE contradiction.

AdrianUSP9, if you really think about this one, it's easy to see that there is no inherit contradiction.

Abortion kills an innocent child at the arbitrary discretion of another individual. The child is not granted due process. They are not tried by a jury & determined unfit to continue living in a structured & lawful society. The child has committed no crime, nor do they pose an imminent threat to the life of another... they are simply deemed "inconvenient, unwanted, or unnecessary" by another individual, and that person then decides that the child must die to satisfy their own wants & needs.

We already have a word for the scenario above.... it's called MURDER!

The death penalty on the other hand, is a lawfully prescribed punishment that is doled out by society to someone who has been found guilty of committing some heinous crime by a jury of their peers. A person sitting on death row is there because they exercised their free will to cause great harm (or death) to another person & they must then face the consequences of their actions. In effect, they have served notice that they are dangerous & unfit to walk amongst us.

In addition to death penalty recipients having an advocate plead their innocence at trial, they are also granted numerous & lengthy appeals at every level of our judicial system & at any point in this process their sentence can be overturned. The entire system is set up to give a potential death penalty recipient every opportunity to defend their life & demonstrate their innocence. Unborn children however, are afforded none of these protections. Their death sentences are handed out by ordinary individuals who act as judge, jury, and executioner.

Understand now AdrianUSP9???

If you still don't, chew on this one... the admonition in the 10 Commandments "Thou shall not kill" is actually a misinterpretation of the original language & intent of that particular command. The way it was read & understood by the ancient Jews was "Thou shall not murder"!  

I get a kick out of people who think the government should have next to no control over our guns, cars, businesses, houses, land and so on and so forth, but should outlaw abortion and homosexuality.

Quoted: but should outlaw abortion and homosexuality.

I don't want to outlaw it...I just don't want it to be legal.

SGatr15

Quoted: Quoted: but should outlaw abortion and homosexuality. I don't want to outlaw it...I just don't want it to be legal. SGatr15

Lol. I don't give a damn what two men do with lubricant in their own bedroom. I detest abortion, but to ban it would be like banning guns or drugs. They would go back to the coat hanger method.

Quoted: really my only major qualm (not enough bandwith for me to list my problems with the dems).... Abortion/fertility drugs/stem cell/ religion/science issue Ok, I don't want to debate these issues, but rather I want to discuss some hypocrisy. Conservative Christians - "We can't allow abortion/contraceptives/stem cell research because we would be playing God by interefereing with life processes" What about fertility drugs when these people have 17 kids at once and praise God for their miracle? Or even the death penalty (which I for the most part support) how can you be pro-life but support the death penalty? It just seems like a HUGE contradiction. Why do insurance policies cover fertility drugs but not birth control. They are "unnaturally" affect life processes... Can someone explain this to me?

Unbord children have done nothing to deserve death, unlike a CONVICTED PREMEDITATED MURDERER.

Also, I don't think any children are killed in fertility drugs... actually, I think the "fertile" part means you will have kids?

Well, atleast you tried....

Quoted: Unbord children have done nothing to deserve death, unlike a CONVICTED PREMEDITATED MURDERER. Also, I don't think any children are killed in fertility drugs... actually, I think the "fertile" part means you will have kids? Well, atleast you tried....

The fertility drugs often produce many fetuses and the extras are destroyed before being implanted or aborted.

Dude,  how can you equate the killing of an innocent child with the exection of a criminal who's earned it? Are you saying that unborn babies deserve death?


also,  I don't think Christians have any umbrage with stem cell research, they just want the lines to come from a source OTHER than unborn children.  We can get stem cells from placentas,  umbilical chords and one's own blood.  Why kill a child to retrieve their stem cells?



I understand your argument but it's based on erroneous information or discussion with fundamentalist christians and not mainstream republicans.

Bush supports stem cell research, he's provided money for it but he's not providing my tax dollars to pay for abortions to harvest stem cells.  I 100% agree with that.  I don't want one cent of my money going to abortions.

But he doens't ban private funding from doing that and provided grants for research on existing lines of stem cells and from non-destructive sources of cells.


C B  R

Any comment AdrianUSP9, or were you just trolling???

What kind of idiocy does it take to put abortion and the death penalty in the same light.  Has a fetus commited and been convicted of a Capital Crime.  Damn man, wake up.

Being for the Death penalty for criminals convicted of heinous crimes:

AND

Shredding a human fetus because you don't want to be inconvenienced:

=

As far from a contradiction as the east is from the west.

If you didn't get it before now, no, I can't explain it to ya.

As far as stem cell research goes, I'm totally for it. I just don't think we should be getting the stem cells from Federally funded abortions, this practice encourages the Government to fund more abortions. Where will it end?

There are plenty of stem cells in placents and umbilical cords from normally birthed healthy live babies.

Quoted: You are seeing a contradiction between the value of innocent life and the punishment of the guilty? It is called JUSTICE. Human life has inherent value as we are created in the image of God.

This is the essence of the argument, from the Christian perspective.  To murder a man - at any stage of development - is to, in effigy, murder God.

Quoted: i share your feelings. expect the gop-walks-on-water crowd to come out swinging now...

You bet they will.

Not to add gasoline to this fire, but Ive always found prayer to be a bit odd. Many religious people believe everything is pre-ordained and that god makes everything happen for a reason. If someone develops cancer and is dying, isnt that god's wish then? And by you praying to god asking him to heal that person, arent you asking god to go against his wishes? If god wanted that person to live, wouldnt he have just made them healthy without you praying?

Quoted: really my only major qualm (not enough bandwith for me to list my problems with the dems).... Abortion/fertility drugs/stem cell/ religion/science issue Ok, I don't want to debate these issues, but rather I want to discuss some hypocrisy. Conservative Christians - "We can't allow abortion/contraceptives/stem cell research because we would be playing God by interefereing with life processes" What about fertility drugs when these people have 17 kids at once and praise God for their miracle? Or even the death penalty (which I for the most part support) how can you be pro-life but support the death penalty? It just seems like a HUGE contradiction. Why do insurance policies cover fertility drugs but not birth control. They are "unnaturally" affect life processes... Can someone explain this to me?

Being prolife and being for the death penalty are not mutually exclusive. If you equate the removal of a convicted murderer from a society with the destruction of a an unborn child, you have some serious rethinking to do.

As for fertility drugs, I am against their use. My existence has not, and will never be contingent on whether I could or could not produce children. I find it sad that some people do pin their success or failure in life on producing offspring.

Sorry, had class all day... gotta go to work now for the next 8 hours too, but let me throw in my input.

I TOTALLY get the death penalty/abortion now. They aren't contradictory because a criminal has had due process. He knew that comitting a certain crime was punishable by death - he made his choice and is now solely responsible for the consequences. In essence, he determined his own fate and he alone is responsible for his own death. (For the most part, I am very pro-death penalty by the way, my only concern comes with reports of innocent people being put to death, but thats another argument. I hope when we get Bin Laden, we hang the fucker, none of this lethal injection stuff)

I get a kick out of people who think the government should have next to no control over our guns, cars, businesses, houses, land and so on and so forth, but should outlaw abortion and homosexuality

Lol. I don't give a damn what two men do with lubricant in their own bedroom. I detest abortion, but to ban it would be like banning guns or drugs. They would go back to the coat hanger method.

But that I still think is contradictory. In general, I think abortion is a terrible thing, but there may be times when it is the best option (rape, incest, mother's health, etc). I don't think there should EVER be a need for partial birth abortions (I think jsut about everyone agrees on that. If you cant make up your mind within the first month or two, you deserve to have that kid annoy you the rest of your life).

However 1) I don't think it is the governments job to ban it (no the Feds at least) if we're all for less govt control, then why do we support controlling this stuff? and 2) you'll have back alley coathanger deals that will be more dangerous for more people.

Ok, I'll check back after work... sorry I couldnt respond right away "I am not a troll"

Quoted: Sorry, had class all day... gotta go to work now for the next 8 hours too, but let me throw in my input. I TOTALLY get the death penalty/abortion now. They aren't contradictory because a criminal has had due process. He knew that comitting a certain crime was punishable by death - he made his choice and is now solely responsible for the consequences. In essence, he determined his own fate and he alone is responsible for his own death. (For the most part, I am very pro-death penalty by the way, my only concern comes with reports of innocent people being put to death, but thats another argument. I hope when we get Bin Laden, we hang the fucker, none of this lethal injection stuff) I get a kick out of people who think the government should have next to no control over our guns, cars, businesses, houses, land and so on and so forth, but should outlaw abortion and homosexuality Lol. I don't give a damn what two men do with lubricant in their own bedroom. I detest abortion, but to ban it would be like banning guns or drugs. They would go back to the coat hanger method. But that I still think is contradictory. In general, I think abortion is a terrible thing, but there may be times when it is the best option (rape, incest, mother's health, etc). I don't think there should EVER be a need for partial birth abortions (I think jsut about everyone agrees on that. If you cant make up your mind within the first month or two, you deserve to have that kid annoy you the rest of your life). However 1) I don't think it is the governments job to ban it (no the Feds at least) if we're all for less govt control, then why do we support controlling this stuff? and 2) you'll have back alley coathanger deals that will be more dangerous for more people. Ok, I'll check back after work... sorry I couldnt respond right away "I am not a troll"

Protecting human life is one of the reasonable functions of government.  It is not the government taking control away, it is about protecting the life that was created and holding people accountable for their actions.

Taking away the means to defend ourself isn't a reasonable function of govt.  Nothing is being protected and we are being harmed by not being able to protect our life.

Abortion for rape, incest, and to protect the mother is such a small percentage of the abortions happening it is a red herring by the pro abortion people.  

Quoted: Not to add gasoline to this fire, but Ive always found prayer to be a bit odd. Many religious people believe everything is pre-ordained and that god makes everything happen for a reason. If someone develops cancer and is dying, isnt that god's wish then? And by you praying to god asking him to heal that person, arent you asking god to go against his wishes? If god wanted that person to live, wouldnt he have just made them healthy without you praying?

Praying is a reflection of our dependence on the Almighty. He wants us to ask for intercession

Matthew 7:7-8

7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.


Genesis 18:20-33

20 Then the LORD said: "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave, 21 that I must go down and see whether or not their actions fully correspond to the cry against them that comes to me. I mean to find out."

22 While the two men walked on farther toward Sodom, the LORD remained standing before Abraham. 23 Then Abraham drew nearer to him and said: "Will you sweep away the innocent with the guilty?

24 Suppose there were fifty innocent people in the city; would you wipe out the place, rather than spare it for the sake of the fifty innocent people within it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to make the innocent die with the guilty, so that the innocent and the guilty would be treated alike! Should not the judge of all the world act with justice?" 26 The LORD replied, "If I find fifty innocent people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

27 Abraham spoke up again: "See how I am presuming to speak to my Lord, though I am but dust and ashes! 28 What if there are five less than fifty innocent people? Will you destroy the whole city because of those five?" "I will not destroy it," he answered, "if I find forty-five there."

29 But Abraham persisted, saying, "What if only forty are found there?" He replied, "I will forebear doing it for the sake of the forty." 30 Then he said, "Let not my Lord grow impatient if I go on. What if only thirty are found there?" He replied, "I will forebear doing it if I can find but thirty there." 31 Still he went on, "Since I have thus dared to speak to my Lord, what if there are no more than twenty?" "I will not destroy it," he answered, "for the sake of the twenty."

32 But he still persisted: "Please, let not my Lord grow angry if I speak up this last time. What if there are at least ten there?" "For the sake of those ten," he replied, "I will not destroy it." 33 The LORD departed as soon as he had finished speaking with Abraham, and Abraham returned home.

Abortion=killing an unborn child
Death penalty=paybacks

I'm not religious...I just have a boat load of common sense.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: but should outlaw abortion and homosexuality. I don't want to outlaw it...I just don't want it to be legal. SGatr15 Lol. I don't give a damn what two men do with lubricant in their own bedroom. I detest abortion, but to ban it would be like banning guns or drugs. They would go back to the coat hanger method.

So? Hitmen still operate by being covert. If murder was made legal they wouldn't have to snoop around. Empty argument. Want to cut up a little unborn baby? Get the consequences a sick freak deserves. Planerench out.

I don't agree lockstep with everything the GOP stands for.

It's called CHOICE and FREEDOM OF THOUGHT.

The GOP, however, has what I believe to be most of my best interests.

That's how I'll vote.

The whole point of everthing is what the liberal left wants you to beleive. If it feels good it is ok. Sex feels good. Hell it feels great. So it must be good right??? Well for every action there is reaction. You have unprotected sex before you get married or are ready for kids and you get pregnant. Guess what!! You don't have the right to abort that child's life just because it is an inconvience to you and your lifestyle.

Death penalty. The motherfucker commited the capital offense. Our laws state that a capital offense can be punishable by death. Every single person knows what is right and what is wrong. It is absolute and utter horseshit to think that just because Joe Dean was abused and neglected he is gonna go out and kill a family just because he was emotionally distressed. Fuck that and fuck him. He deserves to die.

Quoted: I am a CHristian and a Republican.  I do not support fertility drugs.  I am against abortion (murder of the innocent)) and pro- death penality(punishment of the guilty). What else you got kidddo? Sgatr15

Amen, brother. Lock and load.

Quoted: really my only major qualm (not enough bandwith for me to list my problems with the dems).... Abortion/fertility drugs/stem cell/ religion/science issue Ok, I don't want to debate these issues, but rather I want to discuss some hypocrisy. Conservative Christians - "We can't allow abortion/contraceptives/stem cell research because we would be playing God by interefereing with life processes" What about fertility drugs when these people have 17 kids at once and praise God for their miracle? Or even the death penalty (which I for the most part support) how can you be pro-life but support the death penalty? It just seems like a HUGE contradiction. Why do insurance policies cover fertility drugs but not birth control. They are "unnaturally" affect life processes... Can someone explain this to me?

You are on the wrong board......

The Democrats WROTE the book on contradictions......just turn on your tv to see them firsthand.

Quoted: They would go back to the coat hanger method.

Then LET THEM!

I see no reason to justify MURDER simply because "they'll do it anyway".

But that I still think is contradictory. In general, I think abortion is a terrible thing, but there may be times when it is the best option (rape, incest, mother's health, etc). I don't think there should EVER be a need for partial birth abortions (I think jsut about everyone agrees on that. If you cant make up your mind within the first month or two, you deserve to have that kid annoy you the rest of your life). However 1) I don't think it is the governments job to ban it (no the Feds at least) if we're all for less govt control, then why do we support controlling this stuff? and 2) you'll have back alley coathanger deals that will be more dangerous for more people.

Food for thought: We ban murder of adults, but it still continues. Should we make it legal so no that no one kills in an illegal manner? That's an exact parallel to your #2 statement, provided you accept the premise that abortion is the killing of a human being. The answer to #1 follows: we use the power of government to keep others from taking the lives of others when not absolutely forced to do so at the threat of their own life. That's a perfectly just use of government power,IMHO.

Abortion is MURDER, taking fertility drugs is not

This is why after the elections Im dropping my Republican affiliation and registering as a Constitutionalist.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They would go back to the coat hanger method. Then LET THEM! I see no reason to justify MURDER simply because "they'll do it anyway". It can be hard being a conservative. Those pesky morals and principals keep getting in the way.

It has its moments, let me tell you.....