Gotta love those Swifties!

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gotta love those Swifties!

Posted: 10/1/2004 9:40:14 AM EDT

This is posted in their version of GD

The New York Sun and Chicago Sun Times reporting this morning: www.nysun.com/article/2542 and www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lip01.html

The second link is free and I like the write up better at least it gets my rank right in the article.

New Document Indicates Kerry Wrote Disputed Vietnam Report
BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
October 1, 2004

A faded 35-year-old operations order recovered from the Naval Historical Center in Washington bears directly on the ongoing dispute between Senator Kerry and the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth about who wrote the key after-action report that ended Mr. Kerry's service in Vietnam. The report appears in the official Navy records and is posted on Mr. Kerry's campaign Web site.

It details Mr. Kerry's participation in a naval operation on the Bay Hap River on March 13, 1969, in such glowing terms that Mr. Kerry was awarded a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star for pulling Special Forces officer James Rassman out of the water while under heavy enemy fire. This third Purple Heart award allowed Kerry to cut short his tour in Vietnam after only four months.

The report in question described a mission of five Swift boats ambushed on their way to the sea by a mine explosion that seriously damaged one boat while simultaneously the Swift boats received "heavy A/W [automatic weapons] and S/A [small arms] [fire] from both banks. Fire continued for about 5,000 meters," a little over three miles. The admiral who commanded the Swift boats in Vietnam, Roy Hoffman, finds that detail alone absurd. Admiral Hoffman points out "There was never an incident under my command in all of Vietnam where my boats were engaged by continuous fire from both banks of a half-mile in length, much less three."

The report mentions two other mines detonating as well. So according to this report, which now stands as the official Navy record, this Swift boat mission concluded by running a veritable gauntlet of almost 3 miles of enemy fire from both banks, the detonation of three mines, and yet the only casualties occurred on the boat that hit the first mine. The Swift boats managed to escape and even more miraculously retrieve the sinking PCF-3 without getting a single bullet hole in any vessel or crewmember.

"It is miraculous all right, because it never happened," recalls Larry Thurlow, who commanded the mission."PCF-3 hit a mine, all of my boats directed supressing fire on both banks expecting the mine to be followed up by gunfire.

"But after a couple of minutes we ceased firing and took steps to aid the sinking PCF-3 and its injured crewmembers. There was never a shot fired at us and no additional mines went off either. And if we had been facing gunfire from both sides of three miles of riverbank, I would have called in the standby air support. I didn't. All I called for was damage control to be brought to us so we could keep the PCF-3 afloat."

After he returned to the United States the following month, Mr. Thurlow was surprised to find that he had received a Bronze Star himself because of his activities described in the after action report.

When Mr. Thurlow first saw the report last July he didn't recognize the mission it contained. The Kerry campaign pointed to Mr. Thurlow's own citation referring to his being "under constant enemy small arms fire" as well when the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth first contested Mr. Kerry's account in August.

As the commander of the mission, normally Mr. Thurlow would have filed the disputed after-action report. But he denies writing it. And the "MARKET TIME Spot Report" supports his denial. It was written by someone designated "TE 194.5.4.4/1." An operations order re-sent two months earlier, on January 3, by Admiral Hoffman, set the format for the designation. The operations order procedures, originated by the operational commander of the Coastal 11 An Thoi unit Mr. Kerry served with, Commander Adrian Lonsdale, were the basis for the terms of designation used in this kind of report subsequently. Upon seeing the report Mr. Lonsdale recognized it and recalled the procedures it required as being followed in his command.

"TE" for example refers to a "task element," which is defined by the numbers to the right that shows the command structure over the task element in action. "194" is Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam; "5" is Admiral Roy Hoffman's Swift boat command; "4" is Commander Adrian Lonsdale's command; the last "4" is Captain George Elliot's Swift boat base at An Thoi, where the boats on this mission were based. And the final "/1" indicates someone other than the commander of the mission. If the report had been submitted by the mission commander, in this case Larry Thurlow, according to the operations order, it would have begun with a "C" for commander of the Task Element, and the sender would have been "CTE 194.5.4.4."

According to a Navy communications expert, Troy Jenkins, who has examined the message traffic, the report in question was sent from the USCGC Spencer, Commander Lonsdale's command ship, at 11:20 that night. Only three of the officers on the mission that day were on the Spencer: John Kerry, Dick Pease, and Donald Droz. Droz took the wounded from the mine explosion to be examined and treated at the Spencer, including the third officer, the severely wounded Dick Pease. Since the Spencer had no helipad for the evacuation of the wounded, Mr. Droz then had to return to the USS Washtenaw County, an LST stationed about 25 nautical miles away, for medevac, leaving only Mr. Kerry aboard the Spencer at the time the message was sent at 11:20 that night.

Could Mr. Droz have somehow written the report? Mr. Lonsdale said he thinks that command precedence of days in Swift boat service alone rules this out: "According to the command procedure I set down, Kerry would have been the only logical candidate. Kerry had been in Viet Nam since November. Droz just arrived at An Thoi in February."

Larry Thurlow adds, "I never liked the paperwork anyway. I was happy to have Kerry write them up."

And there is another factor. Mr. Thurlow ordered Mr. Droz to take care of the wounded after the action on the Bay Hap. Mr. Droz had ferried them 40 miles out to the Spencer and now had to take them 25 miles back to the LST. Moving wounded on and off a 327-foot- long Coast Guard cutter from a 50-foot Swift boat on the open sea was not something Mr. Droz was likely to leave unsupervised long enough to dash off a report. Mr. Kerry had no duties other than reporting to the sick bay, where according to his doctor recently he was seen at 7 that night. And he spent the night on the Spencer.

The head of the Operational Archives Branch of the Naval Historical Center in Washington, Kathy Lloyd, has verified the operations order of January 3, 1969. Neither the Kerry campaign nor its Swift Boat Veteran critics contest the validity of the after-action report by "TE 194.5.4.4/1."

Kerry spokesmen have repeatedly insisted that Mr. Kerry denies writing the report and that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth were arguing with the official Navy record. But if "the official Navy record" now turns out to have been written by Mr. Kerry himself, the principal beneficiary of its glowing references to his performance, the Swift Boat critics' charges look far more consequential.

After all, the report completely leaves out how Kerry's own boat, PCF 94, ran downriver, leaving James Rassman overboard and the other three boats to deal with the ambush and the sinking PCF 3. All the living boat commanders on that mission are in firm agreement on that action by Kerry and agree that the report is a fraudulent misrepresentation of an action they remember well.

Did Kerry write own report of disputed clash?
October 1, 2004

BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB

A faded 35-year-old operations order recovered from the Naval Historical Center in Washington bears directly on the ongoing dispute between Sen. John Kerry and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth about who wrote the key after-action report that ended Kerry's service in Vietnam. The report appears in the official Navy records and is posted on Kerry's presidential campaign Web site.

The report details Kerry's participation in a naval operation on the Bay Hap River on March 13, 1969, in such glowing terms that he was awarded a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star for pulling Special Forces officer James Rassmann out of the water while under heavy enemy fire. This third Purple Heart allowed Kerry to cut short his Vietnam tour after only four months.

The report in question described a mission of five swift boats ambushed by a mine explosion that seriously damaged one boat while the swift boats received heavy fire from both banks. The fire continued for three miles, the report said. Roy Hoffman, the admiral who commanded the swift boats in Vietnam, finds that detail alone absurd. Hoffman, a member of the anti-Kerry swift boat veterans group, says: "There was never an incident under my command in all of Vietnam where my boats were engaged by continuous fire from both banks of a half mile in length, much less three."

'It never happened'

The report mentions two other mines detonating as well. So according to this report, which now stands as the official Navy record, this swift boat mission concluded by running a three-mile gantlet of enemy fire from both banks, the detonation of three mines, and yet the only casualties occurred on the boat that hit the first mine. The boats managed to escape and, even more miraculously, retrieve the sinking boat, PCF-3, without getting a single bullet hole in any vessel or crew member.

"It is miraculous all right because it never happened," recalls Larry Thurlow, a Kerry critic who commanded the mission. "PCF-3 hit a mine; all of my boats directed suppressing fire on both banks, expecting the mine to be followed up by gunfire. But after a couple of minutes, we ceased firing and took steps to aid the sinking PCF-3 and its injured crew members. There was never a shot fired at us, and no additional mines went off, either. And if we had been facing gunfire from both sides of three miles of riverbank, I would have called in the standby air support. I didn't."

After he returned to the United States the following month, Thurlow was surprised to find that he had received a Bronze Star himself because of his activities described in the after-action report. When Thurlow first saw the report last July, he didn't recognize the mission it described. The Kerry campaign pointed to Thurlow's own citation, referring to his being "under constant enemy small arms fire," when the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth first contested Kerry's account in August.

As the commander of the mission, normally Thurlow would have filed the disputed after-action report. But he denies writing it. And the after-action report supports his denial. It was written by someone designated "TE 194.5.4.4/1."

An operations order by Adm. Hoffman two months earlier set the format for the designation. The operations order procedures, originated by the operational commander of the Coastal 11 An Thoi unit Kerry served with, Cmdr. Adrian Lonsdale, was the basis for the terms of designation used in this kind of report subsequently. Upon seeing the report, Lonsdale, a Swift Boat Veterans for Truth member, recognized it and recalled the procedures it required as being followed in his command.

"TE" refers to a "task element," which is defined by the numbers to the right, which show the command structure over the task element in action. "194" is Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam; "5" is Hoffman's swift boat command; "4" is Lonsdale's command, and the last "4" is Capt. George Elliot's swift boat base at An Thoi, where the boats on this mission were based. The last "1" indicates someone other than the commander of the mission. If the report had been submitted by the mission commander, in this case Thurlow, according to the operations order, it would have begun with a "C" for commander of the Task Element, and the sender would have been "CTE 194.5.4.4."

According to a Navy communications expert, Chief Petty Officer Troy Jenkins, who has examined the message traffic, the report in question was sent from the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Spencer, Lonsdale's command ship, at 11:20 that night.

Only three of the officers on the mission that day were on the Spencer, John Kerry, Dick Pease and Donald Droz. Droz took the wounded from the mine explosion to be examined and treated at the Spencer, including the third officer, the severely wounded Dick Pease. Since the Spencer had no helipad for the evacuation of the wounded, Droz then had to return to the USS Washtenaw County, stationed about 25 nautical miles away, leaving only Kerry aboard the Spencer at the time the message was sent at 11:20 p.m.

Could Droz have somehow written the report? Lonsdale says command precedence of days in swift boat service alone rules this out. "According to the command procedure I set down, Kerry would have been the only logical candidate. Kerry had been in Vietnam since November. Droz just arrived at An Thoi in February." Thurlow adds, "I never liked the paperwork anyway. I was happy to have Kerry write them up."

Operations order verified

And there is another factor. Thurlow ordered Droz to take care of the wounded after the action on the Bay Hap. Droz had ferried them 40 miles out to the Spencer and now had to take them 25 miles back to the USS Washtenaw County. Moving wounded on and off a 327-foot cutter from a 50-foot swift boat on the open sea was not something Droz was likely to leave unsupervised long enough to dash off a report. Kerry had no duties other than reporting to the sick bay, where according to his doctor he was seen at 7 that night. And he spent the night on the Spencer.

The head of the Operational Archives Branch of the Naval Historical Center in Washington, Kathy Lloyd, has verified Hoffman's operations order. Neither Kerry's campaign nor his swift boat veteran critics contest the validity of the after-action report by "TE 194.5.4.4/1." Kerry spokesmen have repeatedly insisted that Kerry denies writing the report and that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth were arguing with the official Navy record.

But if "the official Navy record" now turns out to have been written by Kerry himself, the principal beneficiary of its glowing references to his performance, the swift boat critics' charges look far more consequential.

After all, the report completely leaves out how Kerry's own boat, PCF-94, ran down river leaving James Rassmann overboard and the other three boats to deal with the ambush and the sinking PCF-3. All of the living boat commanders on that mission are in firm agreement on that action by Kerry and agree that the report is a fraudulent misrepresentation of an action they remember well.

The Kerry campaign didn't return calls for this article. But members of Kerry's crew have said Kerry is telling the truth. And Rassmann said he has vivid memories of enemies firing at him from both banks.

Thomas Lipscomb is a senior fellow at the Annenberg Center for the Digital Future in New York.

Posted: 10/1/2004 9:40:47 AM EDT

[#1]

Posted: 10/1/2004 9:41:48 AM EDT

[#2]

Posted and you respond 30 seconds later with a "?"... Did you read the articles?

Posted: 10/1/2004 9:42:45 AM EDT

[#3]

Love those Swifties!

Posted: 10/1/2004 9:43:40 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Posted and you respond 30 seconds later with a "?"... Did you read the articles?

LOL

He did the same thing in one of my threads a while a month or so ago.

Posted: 10/1/2004 9:44:09 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Posted and you respond 30 seconds later with a "?"... Did you read the articles?

Just a Post Whore.

Posted: 10/1/2004 9:44:34 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Posted and you respond 30 seconds later with a "?"... Did you read the articles?

Yes. It's called scanning. The 1st and last sentences in each paragraph usually have some sense of continuity. I didn't see any. Perhaps I was wrong.

ETA: You can't fit two Bachelor degrees into 6 years without some serious work at scanning and speedreading.

Posted: 10/1/2004 9:52:16 AM EDT

[#7]

Maybe Larry Thurlow should throw his Bronze Star at sKerry

Posted: 10/1/2004 10:04:20 AM EDT

[#8]

Just make sure this new document isn't typed in Times New Roman font.

Posted: 10/2/2004 1:05:03 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Posted and you respond 30 seconds later with a "?"... Did you read the articles?

Yes. It's called scanning. The 1st and last sentences in each paragraph usually have some sense of continuity. I didn't see any. Perhaps I was wrong.

ETA: You can't fit two Bachelor degrees into 6 years without some serious work at scanning and speedreading.

WTF? If you did not see any sense of continuity, maybe you should have slowed down AND READ THE ARTICLES!

I take it you did not take engineering or math.

Posted: 10/2/2004 1:29:46 AM EDT

[#10]

As seemingly as insignifigant as these articles will seem to many people (the reality is that most people will not grasp what the meaning of discovering who actually wrote the report means), this is really a bombshell. The one event that Kerry has built his carrer on, has now been shown to be likely no more reality than his ferrying CIA guys into Cambodia. The thing that troubles me is "if you drop a bombshell in the woods and theres nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound?".

Posted: 10/2/2004 1:34:22 AM EDT

[#11]

Let's hope this isn't the big "October Surprise". I doubt this will get more than mentioned.

Posted: 10/2/2004 2:30:46 AM EDT

[#12]

SLAM! GO SWIFTYS, GO SWIFTYS

I am hoping with all my being they expose this fucking pompous asshole Kerry for the fucking fake he is! Good for them!

Posted: 10/2/2004 2:46:47 AM EDT

[#13]

tag so I can read it after I've gotten some sleep

Posted: 10/2/2004 2:59:44 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Let's hope this isn't the big "October Surprise". I doubt this will get more than mentioned.

I certainly hope so, even though this is big news, it just isn't the kind of smoking gun that the average person can recognize, to the average person, this won't mean a thing, it will just come across as more nitpicking.

Posted: 10/2/2004 3:17:38 AM EDT

[#15]

Yep. OTOH, if this story had been released earlier in conjunction with some of those other stories when the swift boat vets had the national media spotlight, I think it could have been even more damaging. It just seems that people are now starting to tire of the swift boat vet's message and I doubt the media will give them as much attention as they once did. It might have been a strategic mistake to not have brought this forward when they had the nation's attention. Now it may just get lost on the backpages of the newspapers and be hidden among the other fresh topics such as the debates. I hope I am wrong, because I agree, this looks very credible to me and would prove Kerry to be a total fraud to any reasonable person if it gets the attention needed to spread the message.

Posted: 10/2/2004 4:34:29 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Posted and you respond 30 seconds later with a "?"... Did you read the articles?

Yes. It's called scanning. The 1st and last sentences in each paragraph usually have some sense of continuity. I didn't see any. Perhaps I was wrong.

ETA: You can't fit two Bachelor degrees into 6 years without some serious work at scanning and speedreading.

Far too educated to possibly be wrong about anything...

Posted: 10/2/2004 4:45:22 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
WTF? If you did not see any sense of continuity, maybe you should have slowed down AND READ THE ARTICLES!

I take it you did not take engineering or math.

No engineering. A smattering of math. Never liked math.

Lots of history, government, acting, speech, public speaking, and oral interpretation, though.

How about you?

Posted: 10/2/2004 4:45:49 AM EDT

[#18]

Who cares what a guy did 30 years ago? I want his Senate record emphasized.

Posted: 10/2/2004 4:46:06 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Who cares what a guy did 30 years ago? I want his Senate record emphasized.

+1

Posted: 10/2/2004 4:48:25 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Who cares what a guy did 30 years ago? I want his Senate record emphasized.

+2

Posted: 10/2/2004 9:31:46 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Who cares what a guy did 30 years ago? I want his Senate record emphasized.

+2

+3
But I still think if there is a dishonorable discharge for aiding & abetting the enemy in his records, that it should be discoverable in any court case challenging vote counts to show that he was not a valid candidate due the Constitutional clause about 'aiding and abetting an enemy' to have his happy liberal @$$ thrown out of the Senate.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gotta love those Swifties!

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