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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:07:52 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: So it sounds like the local cops claim part of the problem is they claim they couldn't locate a key. Regardless of whether there's more to the story is breaching a door really a task beyond a regular patrol officer? I thought about it because I know a police officer who lost of the tip of a finger when he accidentally got his finger between a battering ram and a door. Great police officer, accidents happen. But the point is the old Smallville, NY cops back home used to breach doors and they were regular old small town cops. I only remember being aware of the ram being used when there was a warrant though so I assume it was in a closet at the police station most of the time, not in a car trunk. If I had to get into a door I'm confident I could do it with a sledge hammer. At least unrelated to needing a team of riflemen to cover you and then enter and clear the room. There used to be a TV show where men competed at various "tactical stuff" and one of them was breaching doors by mule kicking, using a sledge and, I think, a ram. They could have gotten in, they certainly had the tools. For some reason I can't fathom, they just thought it best not to |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:11:16 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They could have gotten in, they certainly had the tools. For some reason I can't fathom, they just thought it best not to This. There are ways to open pretty much anything that do not need specific tools. If they couldn't figure it out they could have run down the block to the Tractor supply and found an old farmer. He could have figured out a plan to open or tear the door off in about 10 seconds. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:11:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Depends on the door.
If its a "hardened" door, ya probably are not kicking it in. If its a well done hardened door, you might well struggle even with a basic battering ram. If its like the door on a typical rent home in Shitsville, yeah, far, far easier to kick in. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:11:35 PM EDT
[#4]
The windows seem to negate the door as an obstacle in the first place.
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:13:15 PM EDT
[#5]
After an incident with my mom being unconscious and behind a locked door at her home, I bought demolition tools to breach doors from Lowes.
Basically a good quality wrecking bar and or big ass sledge will serve "most" individuals in case of an emergency. Commercial type doors may be a different story. Edit to add: In to learn more about door breaching from those with experience. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:14:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Vehicles make great breaching tools......
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:15:29 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depends on the door. If its a "hardened" door, ya probably are not kicking it in. If its a well done hardened door, you might well struggle even with a basic battering ram. If its like the door on a typical rent home in Shitsville, yeah, far, far easier to kick in. Is it an inward or outward door? Up north, exterior doors open in and down here open out. What was the class room door? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:15:46 PM EDT
[#8]
Gonna need something more substantial than BudK shurikens and fantasy knives OP.
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:17:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Nevermind... i will shut up...
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:18:46 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Vehicles make great breaching tools...... |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:18:48 PM EDT
[#11]
It is one of the unintended consequences of hardening schools. If the classroom door is easy for a cop to just kick in, then it's easy for a nut job to kick in.
Doesn't justify the complete inaction. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:19:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Jesus. Monday morning quarterback commandos.
Has anyone been to the school? Was it a fire rated door? Metal frame? Did it open in or out? I'm sure all of GD would have just picked the lock with their EDC items though 
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:19:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The windows seem to negate the door as an obstacle in the first place.  Hurricane Impact Window Test |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:22:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is it an inward or outward door? Up north, exterior doors open in and down here open out. What was the class room door? I've lived in the South almost 65 years and only storm doors/screen doors "open out". |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:22:12 PM EDT
[#15]
We carry these on our fire trucks. This exact model. Pretty much standard equipment that makes commercial doors a breeze. Rabbit tool.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:23:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryExcept a 10 year old went out the window to escape so it wasn't locked. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:23:40 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is it an inward or outward door? Up north, exterior doors open in and down here open out. What was the class room door? I thought all exterior doors in public buildings were supposed to open outward, for emergency egress reasons? I seem to remember my school's classroom doors opening inward, though. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:23:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Schools exterior doors on can range from commercial security or very hardened to an all glass 7/11 store type.
The newer the school the more likely a commercial security type. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:25:12 PM EDT
[#19]
If the classroom door was up to standard no you are not getting in. That's the whole point. This has occurred several times in active shooter situations.
No, Rural patrol cops are not going to have breaching tools. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:25:36 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jesus. Monday morning quarterback commandos. Has anyone been to the school? Was it a fire rated door? Metal frame? Did it open in or out? I'm sure all of GD would have just picked the lock with their EDC items though Wow, so in your "I'm so superior to everyone in GD" post you noted the same things earlier posters managed to note. Yet somehow they did it without the sneering condescension. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:26:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jesus. Monday morning quarterback commandos. Has anyone been to the school? Was it a fire rated door? Metal frame? Did it open in or out? I'm sure all of GD would have just picked the lock with their EDC items though Fail. Elementary Kids came out 4ft tall windows by themselves fleeing. If someone wanted in the school they could have been inside within 60 seconds. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:27:43 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We carry these on our fire trucks. This exact model. Pretty much standard equipment that makes commercial doors a breeze. Rabbit tool. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/43482/74E1D432-7AD6-4A08-8C83-EA49B26DF766_jpe-2398048.JPG Need a hell of a lot longer handle being staged blocks away! 
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:29:42 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Need a hell of a lot longer handle being staged blocks away! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We carry these on our fire trucks. This exact model. Pretty much standard equipment that makes commercial doors a breeze. Rabbit tool. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/43482/74E1D432-7AD6-4A08-8C83-EA49B26DF766_jpe-2398048.JPG Need a hell of a lot longer handle being staged blocks away! 
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:30:10 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except a 10 year old went out the window to escape so it wasn't locked. I didn’t know that. I’m just guessing with possibilities as to why like everyone else. Just kick it in or break the window isn’t always as easy as first thought. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:32:11 PM EDT
[#25]
Without seeing the doors, it may be difficult to say. I carry a full breach kit and would not be happy doing a standard steel security door at the school. Doors are supposed to be autolatching and or locked. Glass is reinforced and the weakest point. Hopefully that is there to allow a breach and reaching in. All the new schools like brick, so it is more sturdy with the steel frame and door and a nightmare to get into.
Most cops don't carry breaching rounds. Most don't carry entry tools. Not knowing what is on the other side also eliminates the ability to use slugs to damage the latch/lock area. On the other side, there are always weak doors. Shoddy craftsmanship still means there will be doors that you can enter easier and it may not be the door right in front of you. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:35:39 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The windows seem to negate the door as an obstacle in the first place. Yep. My kids highschool has the old chicken wire glass on the little door window but the big exterior windows are just tempered glass that breaks like a passenger window in your car. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:36:33 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Need a hell of a lot longer handle being staged blocks away! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We carry these on our fire trucks. This exact model. Pretty much standard equipment that makes commercial doors a breeze. Rabbit tool. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/43482/74E1D432-7AD6-4A08-8C83-EA49B26DF766_jpe-2398048.JPG Need a hell of a lot longer handle being staged blocks away! Ouch!!! At least FD has jumped in and realized they need to get in there on an active. It is only training for medical though and not doing entry, which we may need to reconsider. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:37:00 PM EDT
[#28]
 Rapid Assault Tools HRP Hydraulic Door Breaching Kit Demonstration (Rabbit Tool / Jamb Spreader) |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:37:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn’t know that. I’m just guessing with possibilities as to why like everyone else. Just kick it in or break the window isn’t always as easy as first thought. Never breached one but I would think a few rounds of rifle fire through a corner followed by a crowbar connected to a tow strap would move something when attached to a SUV. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:39:11 PM EDT
[#30]
 StrongArm Door Breach Demonstration |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:41:57 PM EDT
[#31]
We don't have rams in patrol cars. NOr do we have flashbangs, tear gas, shields or any of the fancy swat stuff that people have been suggesting we should have readily available.
They put halligan tools in our trunks 20-plus years ago thinking that we'd be using them at accident scenes. I think I used mine once to smash out a windshield of a car that was on its side in a ditch. Otherwise you're better off waiting for the FD and their Jaws gear as far as vehicle extraction. Most school doors around here are those heavy things that are several inches thick. You're not kicking those in. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:42:31 PM EDT
[#32]
Most doors in schools are solid wood doors with a steal frame and a decent loach.
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:42:39 PM EDT
[#33]
Would not need to breach if they had planned accordingly PRIOR to this event. Our area, all schools, apartment complexes, .gov buildings etc. have Knox Boxes where police and fire can gain entry.
https://www.knoxbox.com/ |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:42:42 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. There are ways to open pretty much anything that do not need specific tools. If they couldn't figure it out they could have run down the block to the Tractor supply and found an old farmer. He could have figured out a plan to open or tear the door off in about 10 seconds. LOL. No. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:42:56 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Vehicles make great breaching tools...... I can attest to this. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:43:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryThanks! Probably a lot cheaper than Detasheet or Primasheet and useful for the silent entries. But for patrol, way outside their normal wheelhouse. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:43:22 PM EDT
[#37]
You are not mule kicking a school door. (But it works awesome on typical residences.)
A sledge does a lot, a breaching key is great, a halligan, basically anything can break glass and tear out the plastic layers if it is laminated, or safely clear out the remaining glass if not. But as mentioned a patrol car thru the door works wonders. As does just grabbing the door when someone is exiting. Hell in a pinch a firearm will start a breach if you have to. Good gloves are important to always have on you... I carried a breaching 12 Gauge, a breaching key, a halligan tool, a sledge, and a few other things in my patrol ride. It is called basic preparedness. Some of my coworkers had zero idea how to effectively use any of them.... And with some folks you can train, give them the tools, and tell them what to do, and when things happen they just go blank and it all goes out the window. Guys stacking on the school when the should enter. Guys forgetting to grab their rifle from the patrol car. Someone wanting to set up a fucking perimeter like it is 1990.... etc. (Those are all real examples on school shootings I responded to). People who are mentally unprepared will have trouble, while those who seriously considered it might make mistakes but keep pushing on and finish the mission. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:43:44 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought all exterior doors in public buildings were supposed to open outward, for emergency egress reasons? I seem to remember my school's classroom doors opening inward, though. I’ve never seen an exterior school door open inwards. Classroom doors do so they don’t block the hallway. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:44:08 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This right here. My Tahoe will breach a fucking door in no time flat in an Active Shooter situation. Hoe are you getting your Tahoe into the school hallway to get at the door? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:47:18 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would not need to breach if they had planned accordingly PRIOR to this event. Our area, all schools, apartment complexes, .gov buildings etc. have Knox Boxes where police and fire can gain entry. https://www.knoxbox.com/ Around here the knox boxes only have an exterior door key, not a key to every room in the building. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:47:19 PM EDT
[#41]
Through this whole thing, I've wondered If a breeching shotgun was a thing.
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:47:57 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks! Probably a lot cheaper than Detasheet or Primasheet and useful for the silent entries. But for patrol, way outside their normal wheelhouse. My point is most FD have these tools. If they wanted in, it was possible. And as mentioned Knox boxes. Hell, find the janitor he has keys. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:49:11 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We don't have rams in patrol cars. NOr do we have flashbangs, tear gas, shields or any of the fancy swat stuff that people have been suggesting we should have readily available. They put halligan tools in our trunks 20-plus years ago thinking that we'd be using them at accident scenes. I think I used mine once to smash out a windshield of a car that was on its side in a ditch. Otherwise you're better off waiting for the FD and their Jaws gear as far as vehicle extraction. Most school doors around here are those heavy things that are several inches thick. You're not kicking those in. All patrol folks need rams, shields, and basic breaching tools. To pretend it is 25 years ago and to let people die due to lack of basic tools is ridiculous. Some agencies seem stuck in the past... Fancy is a rescue saw or torch. You don’t usually need fancy though, just enough to have some ability to make it happen. And your SWAT folks should have everything they use available when they are working. Shit locked up in a bearcat is useless when things like this go down. (Which I have seen happen at a school shooting as well...) |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:50:00 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've lived in the South almost 65 years and only storm doors/screen doors "open out". Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is it an inward or outward door? Up north, exterior doors open in and down here open out. What was the class room door? I've lived in the South almost 65 years and only storm doors/screen doors "open out". |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:50:03 PM EDT
[#45]
If your department isn't poor you could toss one of these in every car...
https://empi-inc.com/tec-torch/ |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:50:14 PM EDT
[#46]
Come on, man! It's a school, during school hours. Principals, janitors, administrators... all have master keys.
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:53:09 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Around here the knox boxes only have an exterior door key, not a key to every room in the building. I did our facility (commercial business) with Fire dept. Inside is a hard master key and an electronic master key. Hope they never need it though 
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:53:32 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Through this whole thing, I've wondered If a breeching shotgun was a thing. Yes and no. It exists, but patrol is not going to have it. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:54:16 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All patrol folks need rams, shields, and basic breaching tools. To pretend it is 25 years ago and to let people die due to lack of basic tools is ridiculous. Some agencies seem stuck in the past... Fancy is a rescue saw or torch. You don’t usually need fancy though, just enough to have some ability to make it happen. And your SWAT folks should have everything they use available when they are working. Shit locked up in a bearcat is useless when things like this go down. (Which I have seen happen at a school shooting as well...) Who's gonna pay for that? Where are they gonna put it? When I started 30+ years ago the patrol car trunks were huge, and all we carried in them were a box a flares and a gallon of washer fluid. I could easily put a deer carcass or a recovered bicycle in the trunk with room to spare. Then they started loading the trunks up with stuff, and the trunks got smaller. The swat guys do carry a few things like 40 mm launchers, and they tend to be assigned to SUVs that have a little more storage space. Right now the push is for us to go green and go to hybrid vehicles. I dont see them being able to carry any more gear than the ICE patrol cars. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 6:56:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Through this whole thing, I've wondered If a breeching shotgun was a thing. All of our 870s were converted to less lethals. We're not even allowed to carry anything other than bean bag rounds |
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