User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 10/27/2021 8:27:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: The_Beer_Slayer]
This is now the active "shit News links, thanks to BerettaGuy: Originally Posted By BerettaGuy: LINKS TO UKRAINIAN NEWS SOURCES IN ENGLISH Kyiv Post Ukrainian News UKRInform EUROMAIDEN PRESS New Voice of Ukraine Kyiv Independent Ukraine World InterFax Ukraine UATV Ukrainian Journal Official Website of the President of Ukraine Ukrainian Ministry of Defense Save these links. I can't post all the headlines like I've done in the past - too much news and too often. Please @ me with additional stuff to be added here. I don't currently have time to properly curate this thread otherwise. New news link c/o berettaguy: Ukrainian Pravda https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/ Stop fake, anti - disinformation site: https://www.stopfake.org/en/main/ |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 12:58:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4xGM300m]
[#1]
Mainly South Korean-made machine tools in the production of lancets Lancet production video analyzed. |
|
|
|
CHE
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:07:44 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: What special insight do you have other than results from a single election? And how valid are those results when people started fleeing the conflict zone when war started in 2014, and we have no idea how involved the FSB was outside the occupied areas? And as another poster mentioned, that result is one snapshot in time. If all the legal residents of Luhansk had an election today, we have no idea what it would look like, given the significant changes that have happened in the last nine years. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: I explained rationally a few points about culture and politics of eastern Ukraine. I support Ukraine and increased military support. I hate Putin. But somehow because I don't follow completely lockstep with whatever propaganda you have, you assume I'm the enemy, and start putting words in my mouth. What special insight do you have other than results from a single election? And how valid are those results when people started fleeing the conflict zone when war started in 2014, and we have no idea how involved the FSB was outside the occupied areas? And as another poster mentioned, that result is one snapshot in time. If all the legal residents of Luhansk had an election today, we have no idea what it would look like, given the significant changes that have happened in the last nine years. I think the truth is difficult to tell. But we do know in general the candidate that the east voted for what ousted in the euromaidan Protests. I know the Russian military was involved in Ukraine early on, but there were definitely legitimate (as in Ukrainian) Ukrainian separatists as well. In my personal opinion if the Ukrainians can't take back their land in the next year, they would be better off with a treaty that traded some amount of land (maybe return to 2020 borders? Or return of all of the east in exchange for recognition of Crimea?) for peace. But as I said before, it's their choice to fight and die, and we should be supplying them with the weapons they need as long as they want to fight. |
|
|
CHE
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:08:22 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DreadPirateMoyer: It's working out better for them than signing a hollow peace treaty that Russia will violate in a few years. They haven't been able to take back much land, but it's more land than they'd have if they signed your "peace" and then got invaded again. Russia doesn't think Ukraine has a right to exist. There is no peace to be had until Russia is expelled from Ukraine. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DreadPirateMoyer: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: How's that working out for them? How much land have they been able to take in the past year? It's working out better for them than signing a hollow peace treaty that Russia will violate in a few years. They haven't been able to take back much land, but it's more land than they'd have if they signed your "peace" and then got invaded again. Russia doesn't think Ukraine has a right to exist. There is no peace to be had until Russia is expelled from Ukraine. "They" in this case was Russia. |
|
|
CHE
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:09:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hate_Work: 2019? That's 5 years of repopulation by Russia, in Russian occupied territories. Try again? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hate_Work: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_parliamentary_election It's a map of the 2019 Ukrainian parliamentary election. It has nothing to do with any referendum. It shows a few areas in the far east voting for a pro Russian party. Also Russian speaking doesn't play a role in anything. Every refugee I've seen and met has been speaking Russian. 2019? That's 5 years of repopulation by Russia, in Russian occupied territories. Try again? This only counts the non-occupied territories. And Russia has been putting Russians in Ukrainian back in the USSR days. |
|
|
CHE
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:09:59 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Birddog15: Yup. It is almost impossible to know at this point. Didn't Russia agree to Ukraine's borders in 1994? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Birddog15: Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: If there were clear-cut and identifiable pro-Russian parts, we would probably agree. But I dont think there are any. Crimea comes the closest. Yup. It is almost impossible to know at this point. Didn't Russia agree to Ukraine's borders in 1994? They did, but Putin is a madman. |
|
|
CHE
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:11:18 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Grendelsbane: What percentage of them are descendants of Russians who were settled there after the Holodomor was used to depopulate the region? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Grendelsbane: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: Could be. Maybe people on the fence about Russia hated them after they invaded. But how do you explain the 3 million who chose to be refugees in Russia rather than in Europe? What percentage of them are descendants of Russians who were settled there after the Holodomor was used to depopulate the region? You could say the exact same thing about northern Ireland. |
|
|
ID, USA
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:13:19 PM EDT
[#7]
Thread derail looks to be successful......................
|
|
|
CHE
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:13:30 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: A: Dithering and cowardly leadership with escalation fear pee running down legs (pacifist anti-military administration trying to manage the war politically fearing that a decisive UA victory would upset the status quo). B: Malevolent and sinister plan to intentionally slow walk or withhold strategically critical equipment to force Ukraine to fight a grueling attrition war to weaken and slow-boil Russia. C: Giving just enough aid to keep Ukraine alive and totally dependent of the prospect of further aid so they STFU about Xiden and Burisma etc. for 2024 election. D: Deal between Xiden and Putin via back channel agreements on no NATO weapon use on Russian soil, (no ATACMC, F16's etc) agreeing that Russia can keep whatever they can hold militarily in exchange for no NBC use. Personally I think all A-D are in effect to some degree however primary a combo of C and D. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: Why are they in storage, and not being given to Ukraine? A: Dithering and cowardly leadership with escalation fear pee running down legs (pacifist anti-military administration trying to manage the war politically fearing that a decisive UA victory would upset the status quo). B: Malevolent and sinister plan to intentionally slow walk or withhold strategically critical equipment to force Ukraine to fight a grueling attrition war to weaken and slow-boil Russia. C: Giving just enough aid to keep Ukraine alive and totally dependent of the prospect of further aid so they STFU about Xiden and Burisma etc. for 2024 election. D: Deal between Xiden and Putin via back channel agreements on no NATO weapon use on Russian soil, (no ATACMC, F16's etc) agreeing that Russia can keep whatever they can hold militarily in exchange for no NBC use. Personally I think all A-D are in effect to some degree however primary a combo of C and D. From all those deals, young men in Ukraine are dying in the front line. That's not okay. I think B is most likely. |
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:16:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PolarBear416]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: You could say the exact same thing about northern Ireland. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: Originally Posted By Grendelsbane: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: Could be. Maybe people on the fence about Russia hated them after they invaded. But how do you explain the 3 million who chose to be refugees in Russia rather than in Europe? What percentage of them are descendants of Russians who were settled there after the Holodomor was used to depopulate the region? You could say the exact same thing about northern Ireland. The line should be drawn at the date of the 2014 invasion of Ukraine. Anyone who was a Ukrainian citizen on that day stays, or can return, and the rest get sent packing In terms of a vote only those who were citizens on that day should vote, and those who fled the territory (millions I believe) to escape Russia must be included in any vote. Those who were resident in the territory on invasion day but not citizens of Ukraine should have visas issued to enable them to continue living there, or return, but should not have a vote |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:18:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Again folks, stop quoting the trolls and thread derailers. Take it to PMs.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:19:14 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DCC83501: Thread derail looks to be successful...................... Because people just HAVE to reply....  |
|
|
|
CHE
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:19:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: The final disposition of Luhansk/Donetsk will be difficult, if Ukraine wins. But it's not our problem. Something that we need to support, that Russia and China claim to support, is state sovereignty and international law. The first point of China's "peace plan" is maintaining international law. Guess what? Ukraine is a sovereign nation, with borders internationally recognized. Those borders were also recognized by Russia in multiple treaties in the 90s. The bigger picture is that a rules-based order is worth defending. Law of the jungle and might makes right does not make a safe, stable, or prosperous world. If it's always okay for the strong to prey upon the weak, everything in the world becomes worse. Trade, famine, literacy, public health, industrial and economic output, everything. At a certain level, this is a fight for civilization against barbarism. It's a fight for freedom and self-determination against authoritarianism and imperialism. As it's already been pointed out, what happened in Donbas was NOT self-determination. It was an FSB operation. This has been proven through multiple statements of people involved. Russia was interfering with Ukraine's self-determination going back to the early 2000s. Long before anybody accused Russia of meddling in US elections, Russia was really interfering in Ukrainian elections. Philosophically, Russia believes in nations having vassals and rivals. America believes in nations having trading partners. This divide has always existed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: I suggested that maybe the pro Russian parts of Ukraine aren't worth fighting or dying for. But that's Ukrainians decision to make, and we should let them decide. In the meantime we should give them long range missiles and lots of armor. The final disposition of Luhansk/Donetsk will be difficult, if Ukraine wins. But it's not our problem. Something that we need to support, that Russia and China claim to support, is state sovereignty and international law. The first point of China's "peace plan" is maintaining international law. Guess what? Ukraine is a sovereign nation, with borders internationally recognized. Those borders were also recognized by Russia in multiple treaties in the 90s. The bigger picture is that a rules-based order is worth defending. Law of the jungle and might makes right does not make a safe, stable, or prosperous world. If it's always okay for the strong to prey upon the weak, everything in the world becomes worse. Trade, famine, literacy, public health, industrial and economic output, everything. At a certain level, this is a fight for civilization against barbarism. It's a fight for freedom and self-determination against authoritarianism and imperialism. As it's already been pointed out, what happened in Donbas was NOT self-determination. It was an FSB operation. This has been proven through multiple statements of people involved. Russia was interfering with Ukraine's self-determination going back to the early 2000s. Long before anybody accused Russia of meddling in US elections, Russia was really interfering in Ukrainian elections. Philosophically, Russia believes in nations having vassals and rivals. America believes in nations having trading partners. This divide has always existed. Yeah I agree. But the world just accepted Russia in the Donbass. After they shot down that airliner, Europe should have pushed Russia out. Instead they built Nordstream 2. Now we really have a clusterfuck. Although I don't know how international law let the US invade Iraq, which is something I supported at the time. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:19:20 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F2r00O_WIAAYPGW?format=jpg&name=900x900 |
|
|
|
CHE
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:21:17 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gatetraveller: You do know that the Soviets starved to death and murdered millions of Ukrainians and then forcibly resettled Ukraine with ethnic Russians in order to be able to claim those lands in perpetuity. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gatetraveller: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: Those are voting results from Ukrainian controlled territories. You do know that the Soviets starved to death and murdered millions of Ukrainians and then forcibly resettled Ukraine with ethnic Russians in order to be able to claim those lands in perpetuity. Yes, I do. But the people people they resettled into Ukraine were also pawns of the USSR, and their grandchildren certainly didn't have a say in it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:22:13 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Logcutter: Because people just HAVE to reply.... If they must reply, just don't quote the troll |
|
|
|
CHE
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:23:19 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brok3n: Again folks, stop quoting the trolls and thread derailers. Take it to PMs. Serious question: is it not allowed in this thread to discuss the Ukraine war? Is it pictures and news only? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:25:42 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: Serious question: is it not allowed in this thread to discuss the Ukraine war? Is it pictures and news only? |
|
|
|
WLF
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:28:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: LurkerII]
[#18]
A lot of busy people rely on this thread for the most up to date news, info, discussion and commentary from sme's on the conflict.
Herp/derp kinda gets in the way of that. No herp/derp...please. |
|
|
AB, CAN
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:36:58 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: Serious question: is it not allowed in this thread to discuss the Ukraine war? Is it pictures and news only? Just asking questions. You're one of the more successful Russian apologists so far. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:39:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Stevo89: Just asking questions. You're one of the more successful Russian apologists so far. I don't get the impression he is a Russian apologist. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:41:03 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LurkerII: A lot of busy people rely on this thread for the most up to date news, info, discussion and commentary from sme's on the conflict. Herp/derp kinda gets in the way of that. No herp/derp...please. Fine. I’ll stop replying to the derp. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:42:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By blueballs: I don't get the impression he is a Russian apologist. Agreed. Not everyone who has some reasonable doubts is a troll. |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:45:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PolarBear416]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: Serious question: is it not allowed in this thread to discuss the Ukraine war? Is it pictures and news only? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: Originally Posted By Brok3n: Again folks, stop quoting the trolls and thread derailers. Take it to PMs. Serious question: is it not allowed in this thread to discuss the Ukraine war? Is it pictures and news only? It is best if this thread stays focused on military events and discussion of the military events themselves, at the tactical/strategic level. If you see some information from one of your pro Russian sources that wasn't mentioned here feel free to post it. Even if it's fake news (lots of Russian milblogging is BS) sometimes the geo location of the image is interesting. Like mil bloggers crowing about a destroyed Bradley, but the image shows it behind where the Russian lines are supposed to be. We've seen that a few times |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:48:38 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iggy1337: Today on Arfcom I read cheering on/broardcasting troop movements to the Chinese army while it was invading and murdering it's way across the continental United States is just a matter of free speech and should be GTG  There is some wild shit being posted in GD... |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:52:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By blueballs: I don't get the impression he is a Russian apologist. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By blueballs: Originally Posted By Stevo89: Just asking questions. You're one of the more successful Russian apologists so far. I don't get the impression he is a Russian apologist. He’s got a bunch of the major talking points down pat. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:53:03 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: Serious question: is it not allowed in this thread to discuss the Ukraine war? Is it pictures and news only? Straight up russian talking points are pretty harshly frowned upon. Land for peace is one of those talking points the orcs push. Saying the same thing is going to get one pegged as a russian troll/shill. Most here understand that the russian strategy is that of a constrictor snake. They squeeze and any concession is taken without reprieve as they squeeze tighter and tighter without relenting. Any land they are given is only going to be used to stage their next land grab. And that's not the only russian talking point you keep spouting. You keep pointing to Northern Ireland but IT IS NOT ANALOGIOUS. Northern Ireland is still populated by... the IRISH, not the British. russia fully intends to cleanse the lands of Ukraine of Ukrainian people and replace them with russians. THEY HAVE OPENLY STATED IT! You also use the term "Ukraine controlled territories". That's russian double talk BULLSHIT! There are no "Ukraine controlled territories". There is UKRAINE!!! And russian occupied areas of UKRAINE! We don't refer to Iowa or Alabama as American controlled territories. THEY ARE AMERICA! |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:55:40 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: Straight up russian talking points are pretty harshly frowned upon. Land for peace is one of those talking points the orcs push. Saying the same thing is going to get one pegged as a russian troll/shill. Most here understand that the russian strategy is that of a constrictor snake. They squeeze and any concession is taken without reprieve as they squeeze tighter and tighter without relenting. Any land they are given is only going to be used to stage their next land grab. And that's not the only russian talking point you keep spouting. You keep pointing to Northern Ireland but IT IS NOT ANALOGIOUS. Northern Ireland is still populated by... the IRISH, not the British. russia fully intends to cleanse the lands of Ukraine of Ukrainian people and replace them with russians. THEY HAVE OPENLY STATED IT! You also use the term "Ukraine controlled territories". That's russian double talk BULLSHIT! There are no "Ukraine controlled territories". There is UKRAINE!!! And russian occupied areas of UKRAINE! We don't refer to Iowa or Alabama as American controlled territories. THEY ARE AMERICA! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: Serious question: is it not allowed in this thread to discuss the Ukraine war? Is it pictures and news only? Straight up russian talking points are pretty harshly frowned upon. Land for peace is one of those talking points the orcs push. Saying the same thing is going to get one pegged as a russian troll/shill. Most here understand that the russian strategy is that of a constrictor snake. They squeeze and any concession is taken without reprieve as they squeeze tighter and tighter without relenting. Any land they are given is only going to be used to stage their next land grab. And that's not the only russian talking point you keep spouting. You keep pointing to Northern Ireland but IT IS NOT ANALOGIOUS. Northern Ireland is still populated by... the IRISH, not the British. russia fully intends to cleanse the lands of Ukraine of Ukrainian people and replace them with russians. THEY HAVE OPENLY STATED IT! You also use the term "Ukraine controlled territories". That's russian double talk BULLSHIT! There are no "Ukraine controlled territories". There is UKRAINE!!! And russian occupied areas of UKRAINE! We don't refer to Iowa or Alabama as American controlled territories. THEY ARE AMERICA! Exactly. People who regurgitate Russian propaganda = trolls I don’t think there’s any room in this thread to discuss should Ukraine be fighting or a should we support them. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:55:52 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: Straight up russian talking points are pretty harshly frowned upon. Land for peace is one of those talking points the orcs push. Saying the same thing is going to get one pegged as a russian troll/shill. Most here understand that the russian strategy is that of a constrictor snake. They squeeze and any concession is taken without reprieve as they squeeze tighter and tighter without relenting. Any land they are given is only going to be used to stage their next land grab. And that's not the only russian talking point you keep spouting. You keep pointing to Northern Ireland but IT IS NOT ANALOGIOUS. Northern Ireland is still populated by... the IRISH, not the British. russia fully intends to cleanse the lands of Ukraine of Ukrainian people and replace them with russians. THEY HAVE OPENLY STATED IT! You also use the term "Ukraine controlled territories". That's russian double talk BULLSHIT! There are no "Ukraine controlled territories". There is UKRAINE!!! And russian occupied areas of UKRAINE! We don't refer to Iowa or Alabama as American controlled territories. THEY ARE AMERICA! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: Serious question: is it not allowed in this thread to discuss the Ukraine war? Is it pictures and news only? Straight up russian talking points are pretty harshly frowned upon. Land for peace is one of those talking points the orcs push. Saying the same thing is going to get one pegged as a russian troll/shill. Most here understand that the russian strategy is that of a constrictor snake. They squeeze and any concession is taken without reprieve as they squeeze tighter and tighter without relenting. Any land they are given is only going to be used to stage their next land grab. And that's not the only russian talking point you keep spouting. You keep pointing to Northern Ireland but IT IS NOT ANALOGIOUS. Northern Ireland is still populated by... the IRISH, not the British. russia fully intends to cleanse the lands of Ukraine of Ukrainian people and replace them with russians. THEY HAVE OPENLY STATED IT! You also use the term "Ukraine controlled territories". That's russian double talk BULLSHIT! There are no "Ukraine controlled territories". There is UKRAINE!!! And russian occupied areas of UKRAINE! We don't refer to Iowa or Alabama as American controlled territories. THEY ARE AMERICA! Exactly. People who regurgitate Russian propaganda = trolls I don’t think there’s any room in this thread to discuss should Ukraine be fighting or a should we support them. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 1:57:33 PM EDT
[#29]
Looks like Russia's getting slapped around a bit in Lyubymivka. Firms showing a bunch of fires.
 Attached File Attached File |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:06:22 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: He's got a bunch of the major talking points down pat. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:13:38 PM EDT
[#31]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:15:17 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: Exactly. People who regurgitate Russian propaganda = trolls I don’t think there’s any room in this thread to discuss should Ukraine be fighting or a should we support them. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: Originally Posted By Auto5guy: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: Serious question: is it not allowed in this thread to discuss the Ukraine war? Is it pictures and news only? Straight up russian talking points are pretty harshly frowned upon. Land for peace is one of those talking points the orcs push. Saying the same thing is going to get one pegged as a russian troll/shill. Most here understand that the russian strategy is that of a constrictor snake. They squeeze and any concession is taken without reprieve as they squeeze tighter and tighter without relenting. Any land they are given is only going to be used to stage their next land grab. And that's not the only russian talking point you keep spouting. You keep pointing to Northern Ireland but IT IS NOT ANALOGIOUS. Northern Ireland is still populated by... the IRISH, not the British. russia fully intends to cleanse the lands of Ukraine of Ukrainian people and replace them with russians. THEY HAVE OPENLY STATED IT! You also use the term "Ukraine controlled territories". That's russian double talk BULLSHIT! There are no "Ukraine controlled territories". There is UKRAINE!!! And russian occupied areas of UKRAINE! We don't refer to Iowa or Alabama as American controlled territories. THEY ARE AMERICA! Exactly. People who regurgitate Russian propaganda = trolls I don’t think there’s any room in this thread to discuss should Ukraine be fighting or a should we support them. In fairness, some people might not realize it's Russian propaganda when they're posting it. That's how propaganda works. I don't think it's unreasonable to give people the benefit of the doubt and attempt to educate first. |
|
|
|
AK, USA
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:18:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Russia rapes Ukraine.
Russian shills response: 1: Ukraine was asking for it. 2: Ukraine partly wanted it. 3: Ukraine secretly wanted it. 4: Other countries did it. 5: Russia was forced. 6: It isn't Russia fault. and always if Ukraine only concedes a little Russia will stop, why wont Ukraine concede? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:20:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CenterMass762]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: Exactly. People who regurgitate Russian propaganda = trolls I don’t think there’s any room in this thread to discuss should Ukraine be fighting or a should we support them. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: Originally Posted By Auto5guy: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: Serious question: is it not allowed in this thread to discuss the Ukraine war? Is it pictures and news only? Straight up russian talking points are pretty harshly frowned upon. Land for peace is one of those talking points the orcs push. Saying the same thing is going to get one pegged as a russian troll/shill. Most here understand that the russian strategy is that of a constrictor snake. They squeeze and any concession is taken without reprieve as they squeeze tighter and tighter without relenting. Any land they are given is only going to be used to stage their next land grab. And that's not the only russian talking point you keep spouting. You keep pointing to Northern Ireland but IT IS NOT ANALOGIOUS. Northern Ireland is still populated by... the IRISH, not the British. russia fully intends to cleanse the lands of Ukraine of Ukrainian people and replace them with russians. THEY HAVE OPENLY STATED IT! You also use the term "Ukraine controlled territories". That's russian double talk BULLSHIT! There are no "Ukraine controlled territories". There is UKRAINE!!! And russian occupied areas of UKRAINE! We don't refer to Iowa or Alabama as American controlled territories. THEY ARE AMERICA! Exactly. People who regurgitate Russian propaganda = trolls I don’t think there’s any room in this thread to discuss should Ukraine be fighting or a should we support them. He isn't. In fact, he's explicitly stated multiple times that he thinks we should do more to help Ukraine and we should support whatever decision they make. People just seem to ignore that because his opinion on whether or not it's worth Ukraine fighting for Crimea differs from theirs. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:24:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lieh-tzu]
[#35]
No freeloading!
New 1420 video. You gotta check out this one guy: "everything they say on channel 1 is true!" while later he says he's educated and reads a lot.  Channel 1 is where you get Solovyov's show. IOW, state TV.  Why is NATO growing in size? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:25:56 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By blueballs: I don't get the impression he is a Russian apologist. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By blueballs: Originally Posted By Stevo89: I don't get the impression he is a Russian apologist. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:30:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lorazepam]
[#37]
Bakelite can have all his answers if he reads the thread. It's unfair to most who follow to have to go back months for one person. The info is here, take the time to read it if it is important to you, and allow the thread to continue as it has. The info is here if you want you seek it out. Please use the work in this thread if you truly want to know.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:36:21 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: People flee wherever they can to survive. If Georgia invaded FL and the front line was in Orlando 100 miles South of me, would I try to drag my family over that 100 miles of heavy fighting, attempt to cross the front line in my wife's SUV so I could get to Palm Beach. Or would I just get them to Lake City o Jax covering 100 miles of occupied territory with zero fighting? What if I had most of my family in Alabama and knew no one in unoccupied FL? Probably a large % of those who fled to Russia were ethnic Russians who just assumed (like 99% of the rest of the world) that Russia was unstoppable and it's better to just keep your head down and go with the flow. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: Could be. Maybe people on the fence about Russia hated them after they invaded. But how do you explain the 3 million who chose to be refugees in Russia rather than in Europe? People flee wherever they can to survive. If Georgia invaded FL and the front line was in Orlando 100 miles South of me, would I try to drag my family over that 100 miles of heavy fighting, attempt to cross the front line in my wife's SUV so I could get to Palm Beach. Or would I just get them to Lake City o Jax covering 100 miles of occupied territory with zero fighting? What if I had most of my family in Alabama and knew no one in unoccupied FL? Probably a large % of those who fled to Russia were ethnic Russians who just assumed (like 99% of the rest of the world) that Russia was unstoppable and it's better to just keep your head down and go with the flow. Don't worry about it; if you make it to Fort Myers, I've got a spare room  . In all seriousness, a better analogy would be if the Upper South and lower Midwest got sick and tired of Pennsylvania and Maryland's crap and decided to invade. In a lot of places, the borders between states are very arbitrary (as in "the Original Mason/Dixon line"), and a lot of western Maryland and western Pennsylvania is ethically and culturally closer to states immediately to the west and south than they are to the eastern portions of Pennsylvania and Maryland that are politically dominant (think the Baltimore/Philly/DC/NoVA axis vs Butler, PA). Southern Georgia and Florida, despite Florida being more ethnically diverse, tend to share a worldview and an amused tolerance for each other that is definitely missing in the Russia/Ukraine fight (outside of college football rivalries). In the case of PA/Maryland being invaded, if you went east, you would likely be fleeing not only through the fighting, but if you survive, relying on the folks you think hate you and want to change or even exterminate your way of life (with some justification). The ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine will be the biggest losers in this war no matter who wins.
|
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:41:16 PM EDT
[#39]
Speaking of arbitrary borders. How defensible would the internationally recognized Ukrainian borders be if Ukraine manages to reclaim 100% of their territory? Is there a plan for what happens then if Russia still doesn't quit?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:41:37 PM EDT
[#40]
1 hr ago
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:44:04 PM EDT
[#41]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:45:52 PM EDT
[#42]
|
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:45:53 PM EDT
[#43]
If it looks like a troll, swims like a troll, and posts like a troll, then it probably is a troll.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:46:51 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: I think the truth is difficult to tell. But we do know in general the candidate that the east voted for what ousted in the euromaidan Protests. I know the Russian military was involved in Ukraine early on, but there were definitely legitimate (as in Ukrainian) Ukrainian separatists as well. In my personal opinion if the Ukrainians can't take back their land in the next year, they would be better off with a treaty that traded some amount of land (maybe return to 2020 borders? Or return of all of the east in exchange for recognition of Crimea?) for peace. But as I said before, it's their choice to fight and die, and we should be supplying them with the weapons they need as long as they want to fight. I agree with this also. Zelensky campaigned on trading "some" territory for peace. So there is/was some consideration for it. Although now it would be difficult seeing how Russia is untrustworthy and considers Ukraine a non-entity. But assuming both sides are sufficiently spent in battle and agree to it, I say why not. But Ukraine better join NATO and have a nuke program. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:47:38 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F2rFQrdXIAA2CqW?format=jpg&name=900x900 |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:49:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jungatheart: If they must reply, just don't quote the troll I do not think bakelite47 is a troll. Or referring to someone else? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:50:29 PM EDT
[#47]
Nice fireworks.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:51:40 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LurkerII: A lot of busy people rely on this thread for the most up to date news, info, discussion and commentary from sme's on the conflict. Herp/derp kinda gets in the way of that. No herp/derp...please. But this is a discussion forum not a news source exclusively. We should be discussing news and opinions in regards to UA and RU and associated politics etc. (and some recipes if they are relevant) |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:52:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: They're losing tons of bright men in the trenches, women are leaving as refugees, their shit is getting bombed constantly. They could have peace tomorrow, but they would have to give up land. Which they are not willing to do. Imo they would be better off without the pro Russian parts of Ukraine, but it's not my country. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: They're losing tons of bright men in the trenches, women are leaving as refugees, their shit is getting bombed constantly. They could have peace tomorrow, but they would have to give up land. Which they are not willing to do. Imo they would be better off without the pro Russian parts of Ukraine, but it's not my country. Originally Posted By Bakelite47: When did I ever say I support Russia in this war? When did I ever say Ukraine needs to give up land? When did I ever say that the US should not support Ukraine? The parts in red are the unforgivable direct, word for word, russian talking points and are what make him a troll. The second quote in blue is what makes him a liar. In my opinion Bakelite is a troll/shill, just a little more subtle version than we are used to. The red part is exactly what russia wants. He can weasel and claim his statement is not a suggested action but it is the undermining of the Ukraine position that russia wants and no matter what else he says that is pro Ukraine or anti russia it's irrelevant. He can say "fuck putin", "we should support Ukraine", "I want Ukraine to win", and it's just the lube to get the "THEY COULD HAVE PEACE TOMORROW" dildo into the ass of the conversation. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 2:53:26 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: When did I ever say I support Russia in this war? When did I ever say Ukraine needs to give up land? When did I ever say that the US should not support Ukraine? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: When did I ever say I support Russia in this war? When did I ever say Ukraine needs to give up land? When did I ever say that the US should not support Ukraine? Originally Posted By Bakelite47: In my personal opinion if the Ukrainians can't take back their land in the next year, they would be better off with a treaty that traded some amount of land (maybe return to 2020 borders? Or return of all of the east in exchange for recognition of Crimea?) for peace. |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
