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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:01:53 PM EDT
Interesting Engineering
The Romans knew how to build strong concrete. Their concrete marine barriers have lasted over 2,000 years, after all. Now researchers at Nagoya University in Japan have discovered a rare mineral that has enabled these concrete marine barriers to survive the test of time: aluminous tobermorite. This material was also found in the concrete walls of a decommissioned nuclear power plant in Japan, and the researchers found out that it strengthened the concrete more than three times its design strength. The findings are published in Materials & Design. "We found that cement hydrates and rock-forming minerals reacted in a way similar to what happens in Roman concrete, significantly increasing the strength of the nuclear plant walls," said Nagoya University environmental engineer Ippei Maruyama, when describing how the strength of the concrete grew. The way Roman concrete has been able to survive millennia is thanks to seawater dissolving the volcanic ash within its mixture, which leads to the formation of aluminous tobermorite. As this rare material is a crystal, it makes the concrete much stronger and more chemically stable. However, as the study pointed out, it's incredibly tricky mixing in aluminous tobermorite directly into current concrete.  The Nagoya University team took samples of the concrete walls from the Hamaoka Nuclear Power Plant in Japan, which was in operation between 1976 and 2009. In such an environment, the power plant's concrete walls were able to naturally form aluminous tobermorite. This, the scientists believe, is because the walls are able to retain moisture. "Minerals used to make the concrete reacted in the presence of this water, increasing availability of silicon and aluminum ions and the alkali content of the wall. This ultimately led to the formation of aluminous tobermorite," wrote the team. Now the team is looking for ways to make concrete last longer and be more environmentally friendly. |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:04:35 PM EDT
[#1]
Sounds like they got lucky.
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:05:06 PM EDT
[#2]
Thanks OP. Never heard of aluminous tobermorite.
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:08:39 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like they got lucky. With all of it?  |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:12:29 PM EDT
[#4]
So you are saying the Romans had nuclear energy first?
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:14:07 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:15:34 PM EDT
[#6]
Solid work
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:17:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you are saying the Romans had nuclear energy first? |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:17:43 PM EDT
[#8]
So how do i put it in my weiner
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:17:56 PM EDT
[#9]
Pretty common knowledge that the longer you wet cure the stronger it will be. Even the concretes we use now will continue to harden after placed if it stays wet.
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:19:54 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you are saying the Romans had nuclear energy first? The Romans stole it (atomus) from the Greeks (atomos). |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:20:31 PM EDT
[#11]
I've worked in some very old buildings that drilling holes in the concrete was more like sacrificing masonary bits to the gods.
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:21:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty common knowledge that the longer you wet cure the stronger it will be. Even the concretes we use now will continue to harden after placed if it stays wet. Until it hits around 60. Then it needs supplements. 
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:21:17 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With all of it? I rarely actually LOL but fucking lol ?? |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:21:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Very interesting and a wonder it took this long.
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:21:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Romans were pretty smart.
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:22:02 PM EDT
[#16]
This is not a braking discovery...but still very Interdasting info.
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:22:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Besides the sanitation, the aqueducts, the baths, the really great concrete and nuclear power, what have the Romans ever done for us? Don't forget roads and public health. |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:22:19 PM EDT
[#18]
Aliens.
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:22:20 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Romans were pretty smart. Now they ride around on scooters |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:22:51 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So how do i put it in my weiner Lol |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:23:26 PM EDT
[#21]
weebs are gonna start making figurines out of it now
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:24:06 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Romans were pretty smart. And or pretty lucky to have some natural volcanic admixtures 2000 years ago that so far can’t be matched by synthetic recipes. |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:27:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Wasn't there a Star Trek episode where they mined tobermorite
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:27:36 PM EDT
[#24]
Roman bridges surviving all over Europe.
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:29:25 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With all of it? All of it that survived two thousand years... |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:30:32 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty common knowledge that the longer you wet cure the stronger it will be. Even the concretes we use now will continue to harden after placed if it stays wet. Properly cured modern concrete isn't up to the Roman concrete. Though it sounds like the Japanese Godzilla'd themselves some pretty good concrete. |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:32:12 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you are saying the Romans had nuclear energy first? By Jove, they got it from the (dot) Indians. |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:36:01 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like they got lucky. |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:37:01 PM EDT
[#29]
Because of carbonation, Roman concrete would never have lasted if it was reinforced. The only reason we can't use it here is because much of the US is seismically active and we need lateral (sideways) capacity.
So we are giving up having 200 year concrete by having structures that will need to be maintained, but can withstand lateral loads. Carbonation is kind of a cool process, eventually it will allow corrosives to 'seep' into the concrete and eventually reach the rebar, and eventually it will rust and expand, spalling the concrete off. |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:38:27 PM EDT
[#30]
The story of Damascus steel, and the unwitting use of nanotechnology is similarly amazing.
Excellent, OP. Thanks. |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:40:00 PM EDT
[#31]
That is a wierd misspelling of: aliens
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:41:03 PM EDT
[#32]
Cool
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:41:13 PM EDT
[#33]
we wuz kangs then?
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:44:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because of carbonation, Roman concrete would never have lasted if it was reinforced. The only reason we can't use it here is because much of the US is seismically active and we need lateral (sideways) capacity. So we are giving up having 200 year concrete by having structures that will need to be maintained, but can withstand lateral loads. Carbonation is kind of a cool process, eventually it will allow corrosives to 'seep' into the concrete and eventually reach the rebar, and eventually it will rust and expand, spalling the concrete off. Good thing Italy’s not seismically active. 
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:46:12 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:46:15 PM EDT
[#36]
Yeh, but it's not transparent aluminum...so...
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:47:27 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because of carbonation, Roman concrete would never have lasted if it was reinforced. The only reason we can't use it here is because much of the US is seismically active and we need lateral (sideways) capacity. So we are giving up having 200 year concrete by having structures that will need to be maintained, but can withstand lateral loads. Carbonation is kind of a cool process, eventually it will allow corrosives to 'seep' into the concrete and eventually reach the rebar, and eventually it will rust and expand, spalling the concrete off. Stainless steel rebar bro. I used Inconel in the walls of my Hielo-grade gun vault. But fuck it, you do you. Your funeral and all that. |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:49:34 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't forget roads and public health. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Besides the sanitation, the aqueducts, the baths, the really great concrete and nuclear power, what have the Romans ever done for us? Don't forget roads and public health. And welfare! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_Annonae |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:50:07 PM EDT
[#39]
Just wait till we get transparent aluminous tobermorite
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:50:15 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And or pretty lucky to have some natural volcanic admixtures 2000 years ago that so far can’t be matched by synthetic recipes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Romans were pretty smart. And or pretty lucky to have some natural volcanic admixtures 2000 years ago that so far can’t be matched by synthetic recipes. IIRC it's the same situation for Portland Cement here in the states; turns out it's a real bitch to perfectly duplicate what volcanos do
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:51:10 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With all of it? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sounds like they got lucky. With all of it? Yup... hundreds of thousands of tons spread out over a few thousand square miles. All luck..... |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:51:17 PM EDT
[#42]
We knew this years ago. This isn’t new.
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:51:44 PM EDT
[#43]
Legitimately cool thread
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:52:12 PM EDT
[#44]
Egyptian engineers say that’s rookie numbers.
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:53:37 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All of it that survived two thousand years... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: With all of it? All of it that survived two thousand years... I once wondered why the hell they'd build something to last 2000 years (they surely didn't know the exact extent, but clearly built their works to last) since it was surely more costly than shorter lived works...but then I remember how fucking terrible it must have been to design, engineer, source, and build ANYTHING in those days of geometric math and manual labor. Lead Contractor: "No way in hell we're ever doing this again; I want to make sure my great great great grandkids never have to do this again, either!" |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:54:47 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Very interesting and a wonder it took this long. The OP's article is dated 2021 This has beenough known for quite some time I can imagine how hard it was to mix that stuff in. I've seen fiberglass added to concrete which I never really bought of on. I have also seen black ash adder to concrete. What a cluster fuck that was from the Union Laborers |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:55:03 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because of carbonation, Roman concrete would never have lasted if it was reinforced. The only reason we can't use it here is because much of the US is seismically active and we need lateral (sideways) capacity. So we are giving up having 200 year concrete by having structures that will need to be maintained, but can withstand lateral loads. Carbonation is kind of a cool process, eventually it will allow corrosives to 'seep' into the concrete and eventually reach the rebar, and eventually it will rust and expand, spalling the concrete off. Not so cool when it's your fucking foundation... 
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:57:17 PM EDT
[#48]
How did the concrete at Fukushima hold up?
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Posted: 1/13/2021 10:58:43 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like they got lucky. Nope Though maybe nephilim help That’s as much as I’ll concede
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Posted: 1/13/2021 11:01:10 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because of carbonation, Roman concrete would never have lasted if it was reinforced. The only reason we can't use it here is because much of the US is seismically active and we need lateral (sideways) capacity. So we are giving up having 200 year concrete by having structures that will need to be maintained, but can withstand lateral loads. Carbonation is kind of a cool process, eventually it will allow corrosives to 'seep' into the concrete and eventually reach the rebar, and eventually it will rust and expand, spalling the concrete off. Thank you Utah engineer guy. I never knew that. Very interesting reading on that. |
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