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Posted: 12/12/2003 1:08:56 PM EDT
[#1]
At least they have body armour. In 90-91 most of us had woodland camo and my unit had hell to pay to try and get body armour.
And actually in that top picture hiding on sand in front of a woodland coloured vehicle his combination might actually be very effective. In the end though I'm with you, I'd rather see the right pattern for the right environment. Cpt. Redleg |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 1:18:23 PM EDT
[#2]
I know some might make the argument that, "well, the enemy will aim for the vest and that will be safer for our guys" but we know that's bullcrap. It's all about money. All we have to do is spend the money for the correct cammo and for the ceramic plates for all Interceptor Armor. I wish we had war bonds again so my money could go directly to the war effort. We need to make a list of all the stuff that is FUBAR only because of money. Incorrect cammo for uniforms/MOPP gear/vehicles is the first one that comes to mind. Not enough live-fire training (ammo is expensive, you know) is right next to it. Again, Just Damn |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 1:22:51 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: At least they have body armour. In 90-91 most of us had woodland camo and my unit had hell to pay to try and get body armour. Cpt. Redleg Roger that Cpt. Desert Storm 1, 1st AD, 16th Engineers; no desert camouflage. Well, that’s not entirely true. We got issued Desert cammo for the flight back to Germany so we’d look good getting off the plane. No Joke. All combat actions done in woodland. We did have flack vests (NOT bullet resistant) at least. |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 1:35:56 PM EDT
[#4]
yeah at least they have armor, i doubt with all this urban combat and bombs the camo is making a difference.
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Posted: 12/12/2003 2:00:16 PM EDT
[#5]
I doubt it makes much of a difference. Most patrols are mounted. Those that are not are usually in urban areas anyway. Hopefully the military starts moving to desert as the default color instead of woodland. Everything is issued in woodland right now; from HMMWVs to MOLLE gear. It would make sense to change, seeing how the trend of where we are fighting is.
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Posted: 12/12/2003 2:07:00 PM EDT
[#6]
I was surprised by the amount of green vegitation that I saw on news footage from over there. IMHO in many places woodland is ideal. I'll ask my nephew about it. He just got back. He did say that there were beau coup mosquitoes in one area that he was in. The vegitation was plentyful there.
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Posted: 12/12/2003 2:08:07 PM EDT
[#7]
Best camo for urban fighting would be a tweed sportcoat,khaki slacks and Nike running shoes,and get rid of the HMMWV for a beat up Mercedes 240D.
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Posted: 12/12/2003 2:09:10 PM EDT
[#8]
I'm an odd duck, I guess, but I prefer desert camo, even here in the Midwest. Woodland is often too dark here.
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Posted: 12/12/2003 2:57:10 PM EDT
[#9]
am I over-reacting? Yes extremely. A non-issue. |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 3:31:36 PM EDT
[#10]
Actually it's probably not THAT bad.
The whole idea of camouflage is to break up the shape. Making you invisible is impossible, but making it so that the human eye doesn't see a person there amidst those blobs of colors is the object. When a soldier walks in among sparse vegetation while wearing a full suite of desert camo, the light colored desert scheme could highlight the individual against the vegetation. But with a few pieces of woodland gear, they might actually blend in a bit better under those circumstances. Just a thought. |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 3:52:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Guys, quit trying to make justifications.
Woodland is the WRONG camo for this job, and we've known for a long time that we would be spending a LOT of time in the middle east. Do you know why everything is still green/woodland? It's so that soldiers AT HOME will match and look "squared away" for the VIPs that visit, so that high-ranking officers look good to their superiors. The woodland pattern was selected in the 80's with the assumption that major US fighting would be in Germany and Eastern Europe. It works decently there, but is BAD for the places we've been for the last 20 years. But, woodland is the "standard" pattern, so all of the web gear, heavy coats, and other stuff is all OD green or woodland, as are most vehicles. You see, if a solder at home was wearing a green uniform with a tan/desert jacket, belt, web gear, or whatever, that would just be unacceptable! It would look SLOPPY! So everything must match the "standard" color, even it that means that the camo is totally ineffective when deployed for war. THAT's the mentality we're dealing with, and we're far from the only country with this problem. I've been saying for years that we should make the desert pattern our "default" and make all of our gear that color. It's MUCH easier to turn tan into green than vice versa... -Troy |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 4:00:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Troy you do realize that Iraq is the area known once as the fertile crescent. There is plenty of vegitation. Is woodland the wrong camo? For much of Iraq it is. For other parts a green camo would be more appropriate. Hell, even Saddam's army wore green uniforms (OD IIRC).
Your point is well taken. Why do we still issue woodland? I honestly don't know. I think the three color desert looks more squared away than woodland. This might all be a moot point soon. I've heard a replacement for woodland is on its way. I wonder how well green MARPAT blends over there compared to the desert MARPAT? MARPAT isn't as loud as woodland BDUs. |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 4:08:30 PM EDT
[#13]
I'm switching most of my personal gear to DCU or Coyote Brown. Desert 3-color is more effective here in Indiana.
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Posted: 12/12/2003 4:10:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Quoted: At least they have body armour. In 90-91 most of us had woodland camo and my unit had hell to pay to try and get body armour. Cpt. Redleg Roger that Cpt. Desert Storm 1, 1st AD, 16th Engineers; no desert camouflage. Well, that’s not entirely true. We got issued Desert cammo for the flight back to Germany so we’d look good getting off the plane. No Joke. All combat actions done in woodland. We did have flack vests (NOT bullet resistant) at least. Me too. DS1 my entire unit wore woodland camo into combat. We received desert camo/desert boots AFTER the ground war ended. |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 4:16:56 PM EDT
[#15]
Remember the reason for camouflage is to break-up the outline of an object:
Razzle-dazzle Camouflage: [img]http://www.gotouring.com/razzledazzle/images/dazzle1-600.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.worldwar1.com/arms/razdaz.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 4:19:27 PM EDT
[#16]
10 years from now we'll be in some sort of urban war in the dead of winter and all the gear will be desert
10 years after that will be a jungle war and everyone will get issued winter/urban camo |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 4:23:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Believe me, desert patterns work VERY well even in "green" environments. In the Army, the OPFOR usually uses desert whenever they can for this reason.
Remember: camo isn't for when you're 10 yards (or less) away from the enemy, which is what you see in most pictures, and is how most people think of camo. It's to help prevent you from being noticed when you're 50-100 yards or more away, and it's supposed to break up your silouette, so that you don't look "human-shaped." Your eye and brain are well-trained to pick up on these shapes, so you must be able to fool them. Desert colors would be a better camo for 80% of the land on Earth that isn't covered with snow. Even in areas where the trees and bushes are green, the ground below is brown or tan. -Troy |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 5:38:49 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Best camo for urban fighting would be a tweed sportcoat,khaki slacks and Nike running shoes,and get rid of the HMMWV for a beat up Mercedes 240D. Beard. You forgot the beard. |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 6:20:35 PM EDT
[#19]
It's really not that big of a deal, Military fashion is the first thing to go when the RPG's start flying !
I probably saw 5-6 different kind of body armor vests worn over there and I had an old green camo flack Vest and had a desert cover issued for it that I didn't use. Anyway for around the Baghdad area a faded BDU uniform would have blended in better than DCU's IMOP. |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 6:44:23 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: It's really not that big of a deal, Military fashion is the first thing to go when the RPG's start flying ! I probably saw 5-6 different kind of body armor vests worn over there and I had an old green camo flack Vest and had a desert cover issued for it that I didn't use. Anyway for around the Baghdad area a faded BDU uniform would have blended in better than DCU's IMOP. So you didn't have IBA? And are the desert covers issued widely and just not used or was there a general shortage of desert covers? |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 7:38:53 PM EDT
[#21]
I did have a camo green Interceptor vest issued also but I chose not to wear it( too god damn bulky and heavy !) since My job did not entail going on patrols etc I wore the old flak vest instead when we had to wear something. If I would have had to go down town etc I deff would have worn the Intercepter !!!
The only time anything went off close to me ( 122mm rocket ) I wasn't wearing a vest or helmet and the only person around wearing his Intercepter was the only one wounded ! The only DCU covers I saw were for the old style flak vests, the Molle type vests like in the pics above a cover would not be practable also you can see that most people ditched the throat guards ... |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 9:44:36 PM EDT
[#22]
Lets have shiny ancient roman military uniforms!
Most of our guys don't get killed by gunfire anyway... [USA] |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 10:54:10 PM EDT
[#23]
My sons buddy Chad (5/3 Marines) has been back from that shithole for 2 months now. His vest is woodland. He ,like everyone else, ditched the neck guards but learned to use the groin attachment. The only guy that used the neck guard was the turret gunner .
Camo pattern didn't matter he says. You do not want the enemy to SEE you at all. And if he could ,it was because you were about to kill him. And those plates saved hundreds of lives in firefights. His one buddy was hit 6 times in the chest plate. Hurt like hell & brused him but he is ok today because he wore the plates. "Look at all those Hodgies in those pics"- Chad |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 4:05:43 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Believe me, desert patterns work VERY well even in "green" environments. In the Army, the OPFOR usually uses desert whenever they can for this reason. Remember: camo isn't for when you're 10 yards (or less) away from the enemy, which is what you see in most pictures, and is how most people think of camo. It's to help prevent you from being noticed when you're 50-100 yards or more away, and it's supposed to break up your silouette, so that you don't look "human-shaped." Your eye and brain are well-trained to pick up on these shapes, so you must be able to fool them. Desert colors would be a better camo for 80% of the land on Earth that isn't covered with snow. Even in areas where the trees and bushes are green, the ground below is brown or tan. -Troy Exachary. I figgered this out all by my little self, and as stated above, I'm going to 3-color desert/coyote for everything. Hell, brasspile is doing my precision rifle in 3-color right now! |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 8:08:00 AM EDT
[#25]
At least their vests aren't tatical swat ninja black.
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Posted: 12/13/2003 8:48:10 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Quoted: Believe me, desert patterns work VERY well even in "green" environments. In the Army, the OPFOR usually uses desert whenever they can for this reason. Remember: camo isn't for when you're 10 yards (or less) away from the enemy, which is what you see in most pictures, and is how most people think of camo. It's to help prevent you from being noticed when you're 50-100 yards or more away, and it's supposed to break up your silouette, so that you don't look "human-shaped." Your eye and brain are well-trained to pick up on these shapes, so you must be able to fool them. Desert colors would be a better camo for 80% of the land on Earth that isn't covered with snow. Even in areas where the trees and bushes are green, the ground below is brown or tan. -Troy Exachary. I figgered this out all by my little self, and as stated above, I'm going to 3-color desert/coyote for everything. Hell, brasspile is doing my precision rifle in 3-color right now! I have considered this, but, here in FL, EVERYTHING is dark green or brown. Tans would stand out pretty good I'd think, in our dark thick foliage. I could be wrong though. Black is nothing but a big target to me anymore. Reason #1 why I did this. [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid93/p716e5ee8b85fe0d0dec35fd1f650fa2a/fa4fa888.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid93/p15d27193348032d2a0637f8d0cd04bae/fa4fa883.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid93/p9ff8563c27e6a18e3e44f0dae9c3b9b3/fa4fa891.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 2:11:11 PM EDT
[#27]
You also have to remember is for most units the Interceptor vest is new, POint blank is barely making enough to issue out, let alone having made diffrent color options. Even with the older PASGT vests we had a hard time getting a hold of the desert covers. Im sure by the next war in the sandbox select units will have them...
just my .02 cents |
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