i was talking to a local gunshop guy and he gave me this story. because i dont trust most local gunshop guys with a handfull of my own poo, i figured i'd ask your opinion.

the story.

i was looking at a springfield garand and he was asking 800 for it. it was beat to hell. i asked him how do i get into the CMP program where i can catch the 400 deal. he told me the only way to do that was to compete in  one of their matches and the closest one is in Ohio. then i can call them up and get on thier list.

what do you guys know about this?


Also, has anybody built their own M1 from unissued parts? how did it turn out?

please help. i cant watch Band of Brothers without wishing i had a crate of m1's and i watch some episodes at least once a week. thats a lot of wishing.

Go to [url]www.odcmp.com[/url] for the specifics.

You need to shoot a match that are available throughout the US.  If you are miltary or former, the shooting requirement is waived.  fill out the paper work, include a self addressed card and check.  You'll probably get the card back within two weeks.  Fedex will then show up at your door and hand you a historic rifle.

SRM

don't buy garands at gunshops, go to [url]www.odcmp.com[/url]

you need to be a US citizen
member of an affiliated club (see above link)
shoot 50 rounds in a competition or
be a vet, leo, active/reserve military, or a firearms instructor.
non-prohibited person (non-criminal)
if you meet those requirements, download the forms, fill them out, get them notarized and send them to the cmp with a check or cc # and some time later a rifle will show up at your door... btw, this one cost me
$320.95 RG Dane less wood including shipping
$70 USGI wood found locally
total $390.95

[img]http://users.ntplx.net/~cduarte/m1lw3.jpg[/img]



edited to fix lousy math

the shooting requirement can be fulfilled in pistol and rifle matches, doesn't have to be hi power rifle or a garand match as long as you have a signed scorecard/letter saying you shot your 50 rounds.

I do too!

cduarte, that is one beautiful Garand!

HUH???  Must be that new math I failed....

[:D]

SRM

sorry, I'm tired and I have a cold. [%|]..so the total is $390.95, a pretty good price for a rifle made in September of 1940

thanks, I found the wood at my local adult daycare (gunshop), and refinished it. The rifle is a 5-digit s/n Springfield.

Never trust a salesman on giving you the lowdown on how to buy something he is selling from someone else. In fact, you really can't blame him. His advice is dead wrong as the others have said. Get one from the CMP and you won't go wrong.

Now, as for the unissued parts. Good luck on finging any, at least enough to build a complete rifle. There are on occasions some parts out there that are new and unissued but you have to remember that most parts were last made more than 35-40 years ago. Unless you have the tools and the knowledge on how to properly and SAFELY build one, leave that to others. Get one from the CMP.

here's another pic

[img]users.ntplx.net/~cduarte/m1lw2.jpg[/img]

cduarte, I hate you  


[:P]




That is one beautiful Garand, and what a nice low serial number.

thanks DK, and just for you, here's the other side.


[img]http://users.ntplx.net/~cduarte/m1lw5.jpg[/img]

and here's a few more...

[img]http://users.ntplx.net/~cduarte/3m1a.jpg[/img]

[img]http://users.ntplx.net/~cduarte/3m1b.jpg[/img]

Trimph,
IM me and tell me where you live.  I will find a CMP match close to you.

Uh what is that large circuler thing on the left side of rifle at about the mag well(rocket launcher site housing?)  

Mine is of course older 356xxx but does not have such!

Bob

that's the mount for the grenade launcher sight. the stock already had the holes drilled and tapped in the right place, so I put the mount on.

I held an M1 two days ago while visiting a local gun shop.  I was amazed at how well balanced it felt.  They were asking $500 but I just don't have that kind of money right now, darn it.

Don't know what your knowledge level is about Garands (so forgive me if I'm preaching to the choir) but if you do not know garands well, be careful.

A few years ago, some people started making "new" recievers and slapping old parts kits on them and selling them for about $400 - but apparently these receivers were crap.

You definitely don't want one of those.  If you're buying a garand from a store (not the CMP) you're be very lucky to find a nice one for less than $700.

While more rare, also look for re-welded receivers (you'll have to take the stock off to look for this) since there seem to be some rewelded garands out there.


Anyone else please correct me (or expand on this).  Generally, I'd be suspicious of a nice garand for $500 at a gunshow.

Century Arms International (CAI) of St. Albans, Vt. imported thousands of M1's into Canada with the intent of repatriating them into the US.  Unfortunately before they could do so, Clinton signed an executive order prohibiting re-importation of US surplus rifles.  CAI got stuck with a pile of rifles that just were not going to sell in Canada.  So they stripped them into parts kits and had someone cast up a pile of receivers.  Imported the parts into the US less receivers (presumably they are all sitting in warehousing in Canada) and assembled the parts kits on their cast receivers.  Unfortunately their receivers were not terribly good and many of the CAI rifles would not function reliably.  Some could be salvaged, many could not. They quickly developed a reputation as expensive parts kits with a crummy M1 Garand receiver shaped paperweight attached. However, Saving Private Ryan created enough demand for M1's that people bought the things in enough numbers that CAI has continued casting receivers to mate up with their parts kits.  As I understand it they have repaired some of the more egregious problems.

A few other comapnies also offer cast receiver M1s built up on parts kits including Lithgow of Australia.  Lithgow supplies the receivers that SA Inc. uses in their overpriced M1 clones.

A word on casting receivers.  Receivers that are designed to be cast (like virtually all Ruger receivers and guns) are strong and reliable.  They are dimensioned to accomodate the strengths and weakensses of the materials and processes. Casting a part that was intended to be forged is another matter altogether. Casting aligns the crystalline grain of the part into a regular, organized structure yielding greater, more consistent strength throughout the part. In casting, crystals grow in a disorganized fashion depending upon when a given point in the structure reaches the critical temperature where crystal formation begins.  Those crystals then grow according to their own set of rules.  In the highest-tech castings, such as are used for high performance jet-turbine blades crystal formation can be controlled such that the whole part comprises only a single crystal of maximum possible strength and consistency.....that process is not used in making firearm receivers. Firearm receivers are made by the investment casting process, which is far more primative, but adequate given proper design.

OK here's the problem.  Since a casting is weaker than a forging, and since the cast repro part must conform to the dimensions of the forged original, you MUST be giving up strength in the cast part.  So how much strength can you AFFORD to give up.  The M1 Garand receiver is highly overbuilt, but is it overbuilt ENOUGH to accomodate the weaknesses in casting technology?

Problem 2:  Castings shrink as they cool.  A good casting facility can design the part to accomodate this, but not with 100 percent certainty, so they must overbuild the casting to provide enough spare material to machine everything down to the proper specs.  Of course the more material you leave the more machining is required and the cost of the part starts to climb. To save money, you can cast things close to the ragged edge and hope that the part cools to a point where there is enough material to machine or enough material to do the job.

The problem here is that there are a couple of structures in the M1 and M14 receivers that are real important for safety, the most important of these is the firing pin retraction bridge.  That's a bridge of metal with a slot cut in it.  As the bolt closes and rotates into a locked position the tail of the firing pin engages that bridge, which holds the firing pin to the rear until the bolt rotates fully closed, at that point the tail of the firing pin aligns with the slot in the brige and is freed for forward movement.

If the slot in the bridge is out of place, or the bridge itself is too far forward it may not prevent the free-floating firing pin's forward movement under the inertia of bolt closure. The firing pin could strike the primer with sufficient force to ignite it while the bolt is not closed and locked.  The result is an out of battery discharge, a damaged or destroyed firearm and possibly an injured shooter. This is unlikely, even with a poorly dimensioned receiver, because most primers are hard enough not to be a problem, and factory primers are sufficiently recessed in the primer well that such an unpowered firing pin impact could not impart enough energy to fire the primer.  However, a poorly loaded reload with too sensitive primers could spell disaster.

Springfield Inc. has been casting receivers for these type actions for a long time and has most of the bugs worked out.  They aren't perfect, but they are safe and functional. CAI doesn't have that experience. I wouldn't trust the fine dimensioning.

Another point of possible concern is the locking lug recesses in the receiver.  The rearward faces of these recesses are machined in a fine helical angle, they are not square.  Neither is the corresponding face of the bolt lug. They are meant to match up with 80% agreement or better between those surfaces.  Many of the casters who have made M14 and M1 receivers have failed to match the helical angle of the bolt with the required helical angle that is designed into the receiver and defined in the blueprint.  The result can be low engagement of the recoil surfaces and point or line contact of the bolt lugs to the recesses.  As the weapon is fired, recoil and pressure stresses are concentrated on the smaller surface and the softer metal wears until the two parts achieve sufficient engagement to prevent further wear. This wear will be slow at first because the surface hardening of each part prevent it, but once the surface hardening of one part, the other, or both is breached, wear accelerates FAST and headspace can and will collapse back with wear possible leading to excessive case wear or even unsupported casewalls rupturing during firing or case heads getting ripped off during extraction.  Many good M1 and M14 smiths won't touch a receiver that doesn't have decent helical engagement right from the start.  If they feel they cannot lap the surfaces into agreement without cutting through the case hardening of either part, they won't mess with it at all.

The M1 was a beautifully designed rifle, but it's complicated.  Since most folks lack the knowledge and tools to make sure that a clone meets proper safety specs, they should simply avoid the clones and make sure they are buying a USGI M1.  The CMP is the best source for these at the best price.

iceman gives some excellent advice. Also, remember this, if you do get a rifle from the CMP it will have been gauged and inspected so that the chances of getting a rifle with problems are greatly reduced. However, if you do get a dog from the CMP their customer service is excellent and I know that they will take care of you. The same cannot be said for the average local gunshop where it is "as is where is". Most would be very difficult to talk into taking it back and setting it straight. Go through the CMP, you will not be dissappointed.

Thanks for the advice.  For an M1, I'll look to the CMP.

Removed my ebay link

i am the head of our cmp group here. for the record you do not have to shoot a competition. CMP clubs can also hold Clinics which are not formal scored shoots. These will alaso qualify you to purchase from the cmp. Our FUN shoots are setup as clinics and we hold them usually once a month.

mike

Actually read the application, the requirement is VERY EASY, 50 rounds in marksmanship activity.

You can fire 50 and have the RSO sign a letter that states "Joe Schmoe fired 50 rounds in marksmanship activity on this date at this place".

Good enough.  Don't believe me, ask the man himself at CMP, Mr. Michaels is very good about answering questions.  They have a forum at www.odcmp.org last time I looked. (I hate that format of forum.)

I have a October 1943 that we lent the Danes for a while, sweet gun.
edited to add
see this thread on the CMP website:

http://www.odcmp.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1458&FORUM_ID=16&CAT_ID=8&Topic_Title=Marksmanship&Forum_Title=Click+here+to+post+a+message%21&M=True

SA sn 66416 was manufactured in September, 1940.  Nice.  If that had all matching parts (I'm sure it doesn't) it would probably be worth a mint.

Actually the shoot requirement must be signed off through an affiliated club. Having the range RSO would not technically qualify .

I have had one members order questioned because he did not live in the same state that our club is registered. It took me less than 2 min on the phone to verify it and clear his order. I usually write an official qualification letter for my guys when they want to order. that way there is never any confusion over it.

mike

cduarte does RG stand for rack grade? How was the barrel and how does it shoot. I want one for a shooter, don't really care about it being collectible or such. I didn't realize they were that cheap.

You do, however, have to join an affiliated club, even as a vet.

RG stands for rack grade, which means the barrel will show more wear than a service grade. This rifle is pretty accurate for what it is, it holds about 4-5" at 100yds with surplus ammo, which is about right. BTW, I'm planning on replacing the barrel with a 7.62 Nato one, to take advantage of cheaper ammo and better potential accuracy.

Here's the service grade description from the cmp:
"Genuine U.S. Government rifles manufactured 45 to 60 years ago and condition varies greatly from very good to very well worn. Most have been rebuilt/refinished one or more times while in military service and have seen heavy use by military personnel. That use is exhibit-ed by worn and mixed colors of the Parkerized finish; there may be some minor pitting on the metal parts, especially on the receiver under the wood; wood that is basically sound but may have minor hairline cracks and may be well used with nicks, bruises and gouges; the three wood components may vary in type of wood (walnut and birch) and condition; components may be a combination of various manufacturers and from different time periods; a barrel that is used, but with a gauged throat erosion of less than 5 that is well within U.S. Army standards. These may not be pretty rifles, but each is authentic. Selection below only guarantees the receiver was produced by the manufacturer listed. All other parts may have been produced by other manufacturers. Shipping and Handling $20.95 per rifle"

here's the rack grade description:
"Same as Service Grade above, except these rifles may have a gauged throat erosion of between 5 and 8 on a TE gauge or muzzle may show above normal wear or both. Wood may show more use than Service Grade rifles. This grade is ideal for the individual who does not plan to use the rifle in serious competition or who plans to replace the barrel after a few thousand rounds. Selection below only guarantees the receiver was produced by the manufacturer listed. All other parts may have been produced by other manufacturers.  Shipping and Handling $20.95 per rifle."

no, it's not original, but I like the pre-war receiver just the same. Original pre-war rifles are extremely rare and although this is not a gastrap, it would be worth far more in it's original configuration. I'm not a big fan of safe queens, so it's just as well. This one definitely saw service in WW2 in europe, and may have come ashore on D-Day. Either way, it's becoming my favorite M1.

no, it's not in original configuration, in fact the only original part is the receiver, but I like the pre-war receiver just the same. Original pre-war rifles are extremely rare and although this is not a gastrap, it would be worth far more in it's original configuration. I'm not a big fan of safe queens, so it's just as well. This one definitely saw service in WW2 in europe, and may have come ashore on D-Day. Either way, it's becoming my favorite M1.

Mr. Moderator, with all due respect I must ask if you read the thread I posted, or the others in and aroound it.  They accept CCW qualification if it involves live fire, as well as others.

The shooting requirement is completely separate from the club qual, it just isn't the same, not the same as it was under the old DCM.  It is a lot simpler and easier now.

Seriously, read the application or the rules again, with an open mind.  There  is absolutely no stipulation about where or who the firing is done or witnessed by.  Check out the CMP website, many posts there deal with this issue.

Larry

OHIO is absolutely correct that the CMP has loosened up on the shooting requirement.
CCW course involving 50 rounds fired= your in.
50 rounds of trap or skeet, letter by club officer saying he saw you shoot= your in. Hunter safety course=your in.
2 relays in 50 yard bench rest .22 (25 rounds per relay)=your in. Get the idea?

The club requirement is easy also, the CMP recognizes over 1800 clubs, some of which are nation wide such as the Garand Collectors Association (GCA)$20 a year and your in plus you get a quarterly newsletter.

Go to jouster.com and lurk on the garand forum and you will learn much more.

The CMP also sells other surplus US arms for less then market value. 1903, 1917, .22's, parts, and ammo. Several million rounds of M2 ball go up for sale next month dirt cheap.

PS "local gun shop guy" was trying to sell you a M1 that came from the CMP for $400 and was trying to make $400 profit by raping you.

Another aspect:
As a 67 year old retired LEO, and a member of the local Sportsman Club (on the CMP list), I drove to Camp Perry one Friday morning last April and went to the CMP "office/warehouse.
I filled out the paperwork on the spot, and while they were doing the federal check which took about 25 minutes that morning (can take longer), I had my pick of about 50-60 M1's that were ready for shipping. The staff was very helpfull, in fact they checked the chamber and muzzle of my first choice and said "you can do better". Finally took possession of a "44 SA with a bore that looks unfired and with virtually no erosion.
The whole transaction, from the time I entered the building till I drove away with my Garand, took less than an hour.
It indeed can be "one stop shopping".

PS: it shoots just fine.

Couldnt resist [;)] - my newest addition from a couple months back - CMP Springfield, Oct. '44 Service Grade.

When I first got her, her stock was practically black with grease and grime. However, with a little elbow grease and lots of Simple Green...absolutely beautiful!

You will be amazed with these rifles.

[img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=114&iGalleryUnq=136&iImageUnq=20467[/img]

I have one very strong word of caution about buying a Garand from the CMP.  When it arrives, you WILL want another.  When THAT one arrives, you will want another....

I ordered mine with the FULL intention of just getting one to round out my collection.  The instant I laid eyes on that 60 year old walnut and forged steel, I caught myself saying, "OK, the next one will be a Dane with a VAR barrel."  I then gasped, knowing that I had been bitten by the M1 bug.

I just won a local match with a that Nov 1942 SA from the CMP.  It's amazing how well these old warhorses shoot.  If only they could talk....

Holy shit! Great thread, I had no idea you could get one for that cheap.... I am definately going to do it....

Rob

When you buy one in the "less wood" condition, it is also missing alot of hardware according to the description on the website. I don't know how easy it is to find the needed hardware but it seems to me that the extra $50 is worth it to get one with raggedyass wood and all the parts. IMHO

this is very true. the reason I got a woodless is that I already had a decent stockset with all the hardware needed to make it complete.

Also, take heed to Fishkeprs words, they are very true. Garands are like Doritos, you can't just have one! [:D]

For the best in aftermarket wood (wenigs), go here [url]http://www.dgrguns.com/0-main-page-stocks.htm[/url] Dean is also the guy to go to if you want to make that old girl pretty again, and shoot like new.

Finally, I believe that it's everyones duty to liberate as many rifles from the .gov as possible, so go get qualified and go get some....DK, you know what you have to do. [;D] Just think what could happen to all those garands if hitlery gets in the white house. [shock] Remember, our dear friend bill caused hundreds of thousands of 1911s, m14s, garands, etc to get fed into capt crunch which is on the same base as the cmp warehouse in Anniston, AL. Go forth, and get your garand! [banana]

Is there a place to get all the replacement stock hardware or do you have to scrounge it from gunshows?

I live about 2 hours from Anniston. Maybe I'll drive down there and pick one up if thats possible.

you can get an unfinished stockset from Dean with handguard metal installed for $180(these are really sweet stocks and finishing them is fun)
The other parts you need are:
stock ferrule with swivel
buttplate assembly
buttplate screws, long and short, and stock swivel (the long screw and stock swivel are the same as the ar15/m16a1-2 ones [:D])

you can find these parts at
[url]www.billricca.com[/url]
[url]www.fultonarmory.com[/url]
[url]www.e-gunparts.com[/url]
among others including ebay, go ask on [url]www.jouster.com[/url], which is the best place to get your garand questions ask, since all the real garand junkies hang out there.

BTW, you just can't show up at anniston right now, since there's no store there. If you meet the requirements to buy a rifle, you can volunteer to go work there and can pick your rifle out from ones that aren't back-ordered. That's one way to get a real sweetheart.

This is my favorite. A service grade, all correct, H&R. I cant tell if it has ever been shot. I was amazed that it was not considered a collector grade.
Save a little extra and get the service grade. Especally if you're only going to get one. You'll be happier you did.
[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=20471[/img]

[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=20472[/img]

Then take it to a JCGarand match. Its fun.
[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=20473[/img]

Be very carefull though, once you get one its hard to stop.

The 50 rounds of fire is waived if you are current or former military, an active LEO or an senior citizen. I got mine in september, 2 weeks after submitting the paperwork.
Also to find out all you need to know about the garand go to: [url]battlerifles.com[/url]

Tom