OK, now nobody wants to pay higher prices. But lets look at what happened and where we are going.

For the last 20-30 years discount stores (Kmart, etc.) have been eliminating the competition. Basically no one is gonna buy a hammer from Daves Hardware for $8.50 when they can get one from Kmart for $5.75. So goodbye Daves Hardware and now Dave probably works at Kmart.

And where did that Kmart Hammer come from? Probably Taiwan, ROC or some similar country. Basically these items are made by cheap labor (sometimes free labor in cases like China). So no US made hammer could ever effectively compete on the market. Unions came in to protect the jobs of US hammer makers but they can only do so much and they have their own inherent problems. How's that US Steel stock doing these days?

The result is nobody is really buying US products. And in fairness why should they? 20-30 years ago it was a better product but crap was cheaper so we bought crap. As a result US companies either went out of business or scaled back in terms of quality and began to produce similar crap. They also scaled back your jobs and wages.

Rather than maintain a workforce of competent, skilled workers they now employ a skeleton crew of Jerry Springer candidates who they lay off or fire before they are eligible to any real benefits or retirement. They can now make a crappy hammer for $6.50. This is if they don't just import a crappy one to begin with and not make anything at all.

For the most part "Made in the USA" no longer means jack shit in terms of quality and in most cases is a lie. Most things "Made in the USA" are 'assembled' in Mexico, thank you NAFTA. Wanna guess where the 'quality control' happens?

Enter the internet.

We already had a global market driving down US quality and wages. It was already leveling prices across the board. BUT the discount chains were still winning. You see that shitty $6.50 Hammer really only costs them $2.25. In fact they probably spent as much bringing that crap from the 4 corners of the world as they spent on the item itself.

But the internet will eventually kill them too in a sort of poetic justice. As soon as the third world realizes they can 'direct market' their products on the internet crappy ahmmers are only gonna cost $2.50 + s/h. In reality they will probably price gouge us for $3.50 + s/h and nobody is gonna wanna pay Wal Mart ripoff prices of $6.50.

The end result of manufacturing going to these third worlds is they now have the facilities. When they discover they only need a website, and NOT a US importer, they will cut us out of the loop. But we will still be buying those $3.50 hammers. Then they, not Wal Mart will realize the profits and they will become the new economic superpowers.

Any country with a exploitable work force and the ability to market online will eventually dominate the market.

As the US does not 'yet' have a exploitable work force, nor do we have factories populated by political prisioners, we will not be able to compete. No American is gonna work for rice and a cot so that Sears can produce a $3.50 hammer.

So despite "Buy American" we will continue to pump revenue into other countries becaue we need cheap hammers. And why not, lately our expensive hammers suck.

Quoted: How do you think American labor unions and the extreme environmental restrictions play into this issue?

Labor Unions were created to prevent the US from having a exploitable work force which is a good thing. The problem is Unions can't make their workers or the companies that employ them competetive. In the end all they did was drive up the cost of production by securing certain gurantees. The Unions will also suffer as their workforce dwindles.

Environmental restrictions also began with mostly good intentions. I don't wanna live downstream from a unrestricted chemical plant and neither do you. But they too went too far as a result of being forced to 'find things to do' to secure their own positions, much like politicians. Once you solve the major problems people began to wonder why you are still being paid. As a result of the enormous restrictions that now exist hardly any company can afford to produce anything in the US even if they wanted to and California is a perfect example. All this only compounded the situation.

Quoted: Why would I want to buy an $8.00 hammer when I can buy a $5.00 one?  Why would I want to buy anything for more money if I could get it for less?  Steyr, your logic (noble as it may sound), is weak.

Because the old US made $8.00 hammer was much better in quality and better for the country.

"Why would I buy a Chevy when I could buy a Yugo?"

You have NO logic.

Quoted: 1. There will always be a Dave's Hardware, and there will always be a Wal-Mart. That's the luxury of Capitalism. [/quote[ No there will not. There are no more Daves Hardwares. Capitalism didn't kill it, global marketing and guys like you did. Quoted: 2. Someone might just come along and bump Wal-Mart from the top. That's the luxury of Capitalism. Yes, there will as I stated in my oroginal post. And it will be the third world shitholes when they begin to direct market to people like you. Quoted: 3. In a Capitalist system businesses have the (I use the word again), luxury of pricing items as they see fit. You just don't get it. American capitalism will NEVER compete with 3rd world slave labor. I hope you like working for rice, your kids will. Quoted: 4. Higher prices does NOT neccessarily mean better quality. (look at the auto industry during the 60's and 70's). Do you understand anything you read? Nowhere did I say it did. I said our country cannot compete with slave labor. When the global market is complete, we are screwed. Quoted: 5. If lower prices means lower wages, then ecerything else will follow suit.  Housing prices will come down. Auto prices will come down, etc. Yes, Yes FINALLY you said something right. We will have cheaper shittier new houses and we will have cheaper shitter new cars. Nobody will be making enough money to buy anthing of quality and people will only make and build shit. Quoted: 6. But with our great economic system none of the things mentioned in #5 has decreased in price! Duh. Currently we aren't importing shitty houses made in India. But the interests rates sure have dropped due to people being broke. But we have already seen Korean car imports and nobody is gonna buy a Chevy when they can get a KIA (see: $8.00 Hammer example). Soon Chevys (and we are getting there) will be as shitty and cheap as KIAs. Quoted: I shop at Wal-Mart for auto items and some minor electronic junk. I NEVER buy my clothes from them. Which takes me to #7 Yup, part of the problem. Quoted: 7. Wal-Mart typically is an outlet for the less affluent and those seeking cheaper prices. But, a lot of people still use other retailers for their everyday items. I got news for ya, even rich people shop at Wal Mart cause it's cheaper. And they shop at Kmart, Home Depot, etc. cause it is cheaper. Same difference. Quoted: Basically what I'm saying is Capitalism is alive ansd well. And I for one love this economic system. Why? Because I have the choice of where and how much I choose to pay for anything I want.

What I am saying is Capitalism has a gun pointed to it's head and guys like you are pulling the trigger. Global capitalism will indeed survive. 3rd World Nations will eventually dominate the market.

The ONLY thing that could possibly save us is to once again start producing the BEST goods in the world like Japan does with electronics and Germany does with cars. Then at least we will have a place in the new global market. Right now we are just making the same shit the third world does but expecting to be paid more for our goods.

Quoted: That's exactly Steyr's point.  The increased information and choice available to the avergae consumer drives down price - and the indirect effect of that is a long-term lowering of wages. You make valid counter points. However, my wages have never gone down. Only up!

Give it time. And as they have gone up I doubt they have been keeping up with the cost of living. As even YOU pointed out, you don't make what a single man made in the 50s.

Quoted: If we truly want to find the culprit of the economic downturn, look no further than the feminist movement. What use to buy a home and a car now requires two wages!

Feminism did impact our economy but in a different way.

Pay attention.

We used to have X number of people in the workforce competing for Y number of jobs.

With feminists entering the workforce X increased dramatically (lets assume almost double) while Y stayed about the same (increasing only to meet the extra number of workes available.)

Now rather than double household incomes, employers simply paid people less.

This means a man and woman living together, both working, make only slightly more than a single worker from the 50s.

To use your understanding of capitalism, employes could now hire 2 for the price of 1 and they did.

As a result of this becoming the norm, the cost of living increased to eat up the slight increase in total household incomes.

And the bottom line is it now takes two people working full time to achieve what one person could provide 50 years ago.

Feminism is NOT the boogyman that will destroy our economy though.

Feminism simply meant it would now take two of us to do what used to require one. We could ahve simply gone on that way forever.

What is going to doom us is the global economy because we cannot compete with third world labor unless we are also willing to work for rice.

Once they direct market the world via the internet we are all done.

I hope you like rice.

Now I explained this in detail the first time. You didn't grasp it then, I'm not sure you will now. And if you can't even understand the real problems you certainly won't be solving them.

I don't understand why people are so down on the "Marts".  If I were to start from scratch again, I'd find the spot where Walmart and Kmart were both together, then I'd build a store in the alley that separates them.  I'd bring coffee and donuts over to whoever is working the gun counter every morning too, let them know I'm there.  Because when they don't have what the customer wants, they're going to send that customer to me.  And I'm going to have it.

I can't speak for the hardware stores out there, but I know in this industry (hunting/shooting) there are things the Marts can't/won't do.  

- Transfer/trade used guns
- Have an intelligent person who isn't fresh out of high school running the counter
- Stock the items that you actually have to have for people in this industry

No, I won't get any of the cheap dove load business and I might never get to sell a .22 Marlin for $5.00 over cost.  But when someone wants wooden grips for their Ruger Security Six, I'll have that in stock.  If they want a choice of stainless 9mm's, I'm going to have something to show them.  And I'll make good $$ on those things.  Either that or I'll go next door and buy up their entire stock of dove loads (because they won't reorder) then I'll be the only one in town who has them.  I just as well purchase from Walmart because no distributor can get them to me cheaper without having to spend a hundred thousand on a truckload.  

No doubt business practices are changing, you can either embrace them and adapt, or work behind the counter at Walmart with Dave.

People love their money.  I guarantee if they can find it cheaper at Walmart, the majority will go there.  But Walmart is not all things to all people.  That's where the rest of us come in.

~~~

Umm, what's the subject again?  I think I got off track.  

Quoted: Umm, what's the subject again?  I think I got off track.

Oh, right.  We were discussing hammers.  

Hammers & Duct Tape.  If it's loose, use duct tape.  If it's tight, use a hammer.  

What a world...

Quoted: No doubt business practices are changing, you can either embrace them and adapt, or work behind the counter at Walmart with Dave. People love their money.  I guarantee if they can find it cheaper at Walmart, the majority will go there.  But Walmart is not all things to all people.  That's where the rest of us come in. ~~~

That is the current change.

The next change will be direct marketing by the sources who supply the 'marts' which will kill them as effectively as they killed Daves Hardware.

So as Dave got a job behind the counter are you and him gonna later gonna go get work at the sweatshop making shit for Kathie Lee?

A little ecominics 101.

To lower prices, you have to lower the cost of production, which includes wages.

No nobody really gave a damn when that just meant kids in Taiwan working for rice. But when they begin to compete with us directly we are gonna have to also work for rice to match their price.

And I know you have seen how people will bust your balls over a nickle.

Quoted: Quoted: You are a idiot. Nice! Rather than having a mature, intelligent conversation, you take the low road and start with the name calling. That's the first sign that the person trying to push his idea, is of a lower class. BTW - When following a vowel with a vowel, proper sentence structure requires a consonant. Example: An idiot. Not a idiot.

Yeah I know.

And I editted it before you quoted it.

I get frustrated when people don't get it. And even if I 'thought' you were a idiot it doesn't help you get it to call you one.

All it does is let you focus on the insult and not what I'm trying to tell you. It also makes you resistant to the information as a result.

And if it makes you feel better to question my grammer or speculate on my 'class' you go right ahead.

You are wrong about so many things you may as well be off on those things as well.

Quoted: And I know you have seen how people will bust your balls over a nickle.

LOL... You bet.  Look at me, I give away XM193 for $2.99/box.

The good news is the fact the manufacturers are catching on to this trend and they do one of two things:

- Disallow the sale of their products to the "Marts"
- Enforce pricing controls.  If I advertise a Leupold below what I'm suppose to, I get my name on a list and no distributors will ship to me.  

These are good things.  Imagine, a manufacturer insisting you make a profit.

Quoted: It's Dave and Dave's fault only if the best he can do is get a job at Wal-Mart. If Dave wants better wages, Dave can go to school at night and get a degree. Don't blame Wal-Mart for Dave's lack of skills.

Brilliant, now the American Dream REQUIRES a degree?

What ever happened to a good idea and hard work?

What ever happened to "it doesn't matter where you come from or if you are poor?"

Dave should have been a brain surgeon and he wouldn't be put out of business by Wal Mart.

Genius, now we only need a entire nation full of brain surgeons and we'll be fine.

Do you think about this stuff first or just start typing?

Let me try and put this in terms MOST will understand.

Let us assume that guns are in fact a tool. Then let us assume that like hammers, most Americans will buy a gun.

Let us also assume that with this greater demand firearm manufacturers will price their product accordingly to appeal to the larger market.

OK Bustmaster makes a really nice one BUT you can buy a SAR1 for about a 1/3 of the price.

As most consumers are not terrible informed 'most' will buy a SAR1 and probably buy it at Wal Mart.

Bushmaster, having lower their prices to the bare minimum for competetive reasons, will simply not get the volume to maintain a profitable business.

They now have two choices:

1. Go out of business.

2. Make a similarly cheap product that can compete price wise with a SAR1.

This is what happens with a price driven economy, you end up with the lowest common denominator.

Quoted: Quoted: What I am saying is Capitalism has a gun pointed to it's head and guys like you are pulling the trigger. Global capitalism will indeed survive. 3rd World Nations will eventually dominate the market. Are you then suggesting that the 3rd world will be able to sustain the system that gives them an advantage? I believe that the forces that prevent us form competing will act upon the 3rd world and right the ship so to speak. If I am not mistaken the european union has been considering more and more poor countries for just this reason. The countries that were poor, and could produce cheap labor and services became richer, and therefore more expensive to deal with. In a true market economy, be it national or world wide, would it not regulate itself to eliminate advantage?

I am suggesting that IF a source can martket it's product directly it will.

This is kinda like when manufacturers decided to "wholesale direct" products and put their distributors out of business.

If you can buy direct from the manufacturer "at wholesale" you will. On a larger scale, now that we have made these countries the base of manufacturing, it is only a matter of them making the realization and cutting out the middle man.

Quoted: I guess my question would be what are we supposed to DO about the situation? There isn't a hell of a lot made in the US anymore and, as you said, that which is is no longer all that superior in quality. Cpt. Redleg

I don't think there is any going back.

I'm not sure our country is capable of becoming what it once was. I don't think the majority of the population has the work ethic to generate the best products in the world, nor will they financially support it if it was actually made.

Even if we did make the best hammer in the world, Raynor_Schiene and millions like him will buy the cheaper one at Wal Mart.

I think Paul has the reality with adapt or die. I think eventually we will be unwilling to adapt and will lose. Like I said, no American will be willing to work for rice. At least not for some time.

But this is because too many are short sighted, do not consider the consequences and won't pay that much for a hammer.

They may end up working for rice, but they will point out hammers used to cost $8.00 and NOW you can buy one for $3.50.

Quoted: Steyr: Brilliant, now the American Dream REQUIRES a degree? Raynor: No, not at all. But it looks like Dave needs one if he doesn't want to work at WalMart.

Well I know people WITH college degrees stuck at Wal Mart. It's not a guarantee of anything.

Quoted: Steyr: What ever happened to a good idea and hard work? Raynor: Nothing! Entrepreneurs and small business owners make up the vast majority of businesses in America.

And as you noted they often fail for the reasons I pointed out.

Quoted: Steyr: What ever happened to "it doesn't matter where you come from or if you are poor?" Raynor: What does that have to do with Dave going to night school and getting a better education?

LOL. He's way too busy working at Wal Mart and can't afford night school.

Quoted: Steyr: Dave should have been a brain surgeon and he wouldn't be put out of business by Wal Mart. Raynor: No, but he did know the risks of starting his own business. A large majority of small businesses fail for various reasons.

That will teach him for trying. He should have just got a job at Wal Mart like everyone else.

Quoted: Steyr: Do you think about this stuff first or just start typing? Raynor: Of course I think first. You have your opinion of the economy and the market, and so do I. They just differ that's all.

Nah, too easy.

Quoted: Steyr. Do you purposely go out and buy the most expensive item you can find? Or do you prefer to get it at less cost?

No but I buy the best I can afford. And I don't bother walking across the street to save a nickle.

Quoted: I prefer the costlier when it comes to firearms, clothes, watches, automobiles, bourbon, and tobacco.

How about hammers?

Quoted: But for batteries, electronics, cd's, dvd's, etc., I shop around for the less expensive. And Wal-Mart fits that bill. Do you ONLY buy "Made in America"? I do on most of the above mentioned costlier items. But I know it's impossible with 90% of the things I buy at Wal-Mart.

China thanks you.

Quoted: Even "Dave's" would carry items made other than in America.

It does not matter what Dave stocked, Wal Mart killed him. My post wasn't even about Dave if you took time to read it. Next guy on the chopping block IS Wal Mart.

And with the demise of the discount middle man marts, the US market will die like Daves Hardware.

Quoted: I suggest you relax, enjoy whatever it is you do for a living and invest your money for your future. There are great Stocks and Bonds here and abroad that will yield high dividends. BTW.. Wal-Mart doesn't sell SAR-1's. I think they believe they are evil!

Geeze, nobody said Wal Mart sells SARs. I used it simply as a example almost ANYONE could understand, you didnt seem to.

As for stocks and bonds, no thanks. I watched a bunch of people lose EVERYTHING in the market last year.

Quoted: Quoted: Enter the internet. As soon as the third world realizes they can 'direct market' their products on the internet crappy ahmmers are only gonna cost $2.50 + s/h. In reality they will probably price gouge us for $3.50 + s/h and nobody is gonna wanna pay Wal Mart ripoff prices of $6.50. Sorry, but that isn't going to happen, it's just not they way big companies do business. "Taiwan hammers inc" isn't going to want to HOPE to sell 32 million hammers INDIVIDUALLY, when they are guaranteed to sell the same 32 million hammers to Wal Mart for a slightly lower price and get their money all at once. If you think "Taiwan hammers inc" want to cash 32 million $2.50 checks you're crazy. It would be a shipping nightmare for them at best, and they wouldn't sell nearly the volume of "hammers" they could dealing with just one large US company. Secondly, shipping items from overseas is not cheap. Shipping is going to cost the buyer more than the "hammer", and guess where they'll head? Right back to Wal Mart. Only now Wal Mart has struck a deal with a new manufacturer of "hammers" and "Taiwan hammers Inc" just went out of business by trying to cut the throat of their main buyers (Wal Mart). That's basically how I feel about it. It is not viable for companies to ship small orders overseas. They would have to use airfreight, and that is so friggin' expensive no one would be willing to pay for it. I think a more plausible scenario is foreign companies opening large wholesale outlets in Canada or Mexico and using the common post to mail goods across the border. That is much cheaper.

What about when they sell enough, while at the same time denying to Marts, and they get their own distribution.

China Mart isn't a impossiblity. Well they would probably call it something else like "USA Mart."