A good friend of mine once told me that I REALLY know how to piss people off. At the time, I took offense to the statement, but I now know he was telling the truth.

Call it a genetic charachter flaw that I couldn't correct if I wanted to (which I don't) [}:D]


I guess the reason that I type harshly 'round here is that I am frustrated by gun owners who are IMO conservatives when it comes to guns, but Liberals when it comes to just about everything else - womens lib, abortion, taxes, etc etc. TO me, IMO, the way I view the world, in my narrow, chauvinistic, bull headed, male -dominant mind (is that enuf disclaimers??? Lord knows you BETTER put those disclaimers on any dogmatic statement these days, or somebody will scream "Harassment!!!!!!") the two positions are logically inconsistent. And Liberal views in these peripheral issues will eventually lead, if not THIS generation, then in the next, to a general erosion of my Second Amendment rights. IMO. AS I see it.

Sometimes I am outright rude - I admit that. But sometimes I REALLY TRY to be open and understanding, without sacrificing my principles. I don't know HOW I could be any more kind and conciliatory to some of you. It just seems that CERTAIN PEOPLE are hostile to a Biblically based / old school Conservative opinion NO MATTER WHAT I DO.

Accordingly, I've learned to STOP twisting myself in a pretzel to accomodate such people.

DISCLAIMER: this post NOT intended to lump anyone specifically into any of the above mentioned groups. It is intended as a general statement of belief, without accusatory intentions toward any person, or organization,  real or imagined.

You can see how ridiculous this gets.

Sheesh.

But Rush is right. America has become Oprah-ized, even to the point of me venting here. So, here's the deal -

I will continue posting my thoughts here, CLEARLY in the minority, and take my lumps for it.

'Nuff said.

Its the mustache, isn't it????

I NEED to shave the mustache.

[:D]

************************************************

You hit that nail right on the head garandman.

I too have agonized over the discrepancy between people who are conservative on some issues (RKBA for ex.) and way beyond liberal on most others.

I think what we forget sometimes is that when someone agrees with even one portion of our conservative lifestyle/beleif system that we make the mistake of assuming that they feel the same way about everything ...heck or even jsut a few things for that matter.

This is a character flaw in us Biblically based / Old School types........and like you I tend to piss folks off sometimes but again,  like you,........ I would not change it if I could.

What both you and I and others like us need to understand and remember is that the world is your friend when you [b][i]"Do as the Romans do"[/b][/i] but when you speak up against the world you are automatically branded as a Jesus freak........a religious zealot so on and so forth.

To most folks in most places.....most I said but not all..............we and those like us are conservative Jesus Freak nuts.

Don't forget though that to us............most folks are the world and they care nothing for the things that matter to us.

Simple fundamental eternal difference.



You are not alone Bro.  

This was my response on the other thread to your proclamation....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoted:
I guess the reason that I type harshly is that I am frustrated by gun owners who are IMO conservatives when it comes to guns, but Liberals when it comes to just about everything else - womens lib, abortion, taxes, etc etc. TO me, IMO, the way i view the world, in my narrow, chauvinistic, bull headed, male -dominant mind (is that enuf disclaimers???) the two positions are logically inconsistent. And Liberal views in these peripheral issues will eventually lead, if not THIS generation, then in the next, to an general erosion of my Second Amendment rights. IMO. AS I se it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




You say the two positions are logically inconsistent. Why is it illogical to approach each subject individually instead of with a checklist as to which way a person should sway to fit into your idea of a conservative? I am pro-gun, because I believe that is a choice we should have. I am also pro-choice for the same reason... I would not presume to make that decision for anyone else. At the same time, I want to see greater tax-relief for all.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It just seems that CERTAIN PEOPLE are hostile to a Biblically based / old school Conservative opinion NO MATTER WHAT I DO.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I am a Christian. The problem people may have with you may have less to do with you being a conservative or a religious man.. of which there are many on this site. Again, I would like to suggest your presentation...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accordingly, I've learned to STOP twisting myself in a pretzel to accomodate such people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Understood.. no one is asking you to change. But if you "type harshly" as you've already admitted to, then expect to be called on it.

And as for your "disclaimers"... reminds me of when guys in the gun shop would tell me, "I really don't want you here... no offense." Comments like that are bullsh*t. They are intended to offend, it's just that the "disclaimer" at the end makes the guy feel better about himself.

OK, this is gonna hurt one of us, but....

OF COURSE, its okay to approach each issue separately, IF you hold to a logically consistent pattern of beleifs.

(Screw disclaimers here, cuz you don't believe 'em when I give 'em anyway) [}:D]

To hold to a pro-gun and pro-abortionviewpoint at teh same time is perhaps the GREATEST logical incosistency on the planet in this present day.

RKBA folk are so becasue they believe in the value of ALL life to defend itself from murderers, tyrannical gov'ts wild animals, etc.

Pro-abortion folk are so becasue they belive in teh sanctity of only ONE life - the mothers. All other life can go to hell. ESPECIALLY if the other life would INCONVENIENCE them, or affect their quality of life.

And don't bore me with the "its not a life" crapola. We all KNOW it is.

with guns you are pro choice. But you are anti-choice when it comes to abortion.

Logically inconsisent, and VERY frustrating to me.

Garandman,
 I've been reading your posts for some time
now, but I rarely have an opportunity to give
you a well thought-out reply in the short
amount of time I have over lunch.  
 Keep an eye on your email this afternoon.



a3kid

edited out because I hit wrong key

I'm pro gun , pro choice , a non drinker , occasional smoker , and I think most cops are good guys. WHAT DOES THAT MAKE ME ? [BD]

I think what Miss M is saying is that it is okay to have conservative views...........so long as you don't talk the talk that goes with your walk.

Heaven forbid someone should be offended.

Miss M:

[b]I am sorry but I do not see how someone can call themselves a Christian and in the same breath voice support for legalized murder.[/b]

That is what it is you know.

Murder!

Or have you forgotten the scripture that states [b]"My Father in heaven knew me even before I was born"[/b].

This is the problem in our world today.  Folks proclaiming something and at the same time allowing all manner of blasphemous ideas and wicked misgivings to infiltrate their beleif.

I guess its okay to mix and match as you see fit huh?

   

I must agree with Miss Magnum. I am pro-gun and pro-choice as well, and many of my views on other political issues may fall just about anywhere. Personally I feel that it’s great that we are all so diverse – we’re not the “robots” or “sheep” that our government wants us to be. The most important thing about all of the members here, is that we share the “pro-gun” view… thus allowing all of us to make our own decisions about all of the other issues that concern us.  

Tyler. [;D]

X--Kill

I like the “mix and match” idea. That’s what FREEDOM is all about… right?

Tyler. [;D]

This is gonna get ugly like all the others.

I am out.

We can argue all day and no one would conceede.

ARs...........Scopes...........Ammo.............Maintenance...............Styles.............Accessories............The LEGP............gotta remember that.

Other wise we've become, at least in the Gen Discussion section, a bunch of soap boxers.

Were all differentt.....at least we have RKBA and ARs in common.  

That will just have to be enough.

Look at us though...............if there ever is a SHTF in our lifetimes it just may be that RKBA and Weapons would be the only common bond.

If so............we need to work on things a bit more.

Dontcha' Think?

Actually Tyler.......I meant it as sarcastically as I could convey.

Personally........there is no middle road IMNSHO.

You either is or you aint'. In or out.

Mixing and matching is the lie and disease that has put our country where it is today.  

Hardly doubt that our forefathers mixed and matched.

Now dang it.............I done gone and posted again.

Without anger though I might add.

Maybe thats the key.

Garand,

I'm not liberal, conservative or any other label that puts me in a political stance.  I am an independant thinker that evaluates EVERY situation for what it is.  I don't get in line just because everyone else does.  I'm the founder of the "common sense" party.  

I don't know.

I believe that Jesus died for my sins.  I believe that I am a sinner and will be for my life here on Earth.  I know God wants me to evangelize and I do, but I just try to pick the best targets, not everyone.   If anyone dosen't want to hear it from me, fine, I won't force it on you.

I believe that that the Bible should be taken literaly (Lutheran, WELS).  I believe there are great mysteries that will be revealed to me some day.

I also believe that you should be able to do anything you  want to do so long as you don't interfere with anyone elses right to do the same.  If you want to smoke pot, sniff smack, sell sex, own machine guns, own S.U.R.s with bayonets and flash hidders on them, fine.

I don't think being gay is normal but if it's what you want to do fine.  I also don't think you deserve any special attention or consessions for it either.

I think I'm pretty liberal, consistently.

Hell, man you think you got it bad,you seen how I get my ass kicked on this board? But i don't think you are a bad person for feeling the way you do. You gotta like the guy you shave.

Robert

Not sure what your proposed solution is.  

Do you want folks that are pro-gun rights, but pro choice to sell off their guns and join HCI?

Also, could you confirm that abortion is the only aspect of others lives you feel the need to control?

Not intended as a flame, I just want to see what other behaviors might need to be modified when you become "Supreme Exhaluted Dictator".

I disagree completely, gman. Religious fanaticism and zealotry always leads to oppression and an infringement of liberty and freedom. Read your history books. 'Wreck out....

Garandman-
That you find others' beliefs to be frequently inconsistent with yours is a fact of life.  If we all thought the same, we wouldn't need any Constitution, Law, Government, vote, free speech, or even this board.  If everyone fit inside your box, then there would be no reason for you to post at all.  We'd all be clones.  

I'm not conservative or liberal.  I'm a Ross.  I think what I think, I believe what I believe.  Some of those belifes may be similar to yours, some may not.  What you consider the correct and proper way to think is fine for you, but it might not be for me.  That's because we have different backgrounds, experiences, and training.  

Your response to Miss Magnum is a case in point.  You start off to assume that to support RKBA means that you have to support all your other belifs.  That's just impressing your belief system on someone else.  I don't believe in RKBA because I believe all life to be sacred.  I believe in RKBA because it's what assures the integrity of the remainder of the Constitution that I swore to uphold and defend.  It is the shield that allows us free speech, free press, protection from self incrimination, protection from unlawful search and siezure, and the functioning of our form of government.  To me that's what the Second Amendment is all about.  It has nothing to do with preventing murder, or anything else.  It has everything to do with keeping America free.

Now that may not be the way you see it, but that's the way I see it.  I don't mind if you see it different, that's fine with me.  I don't mind if you disagree with me and even post your belifes in rebuttal.  That's fine as well.  I learn things, and I may be old, but never too old to consider another's opinion.  Just don't assume that because I may believe in the Second Amendment that I believe in Christ, or haven't voted for a Democrat, or even agree with your choice of car.  

Accept people the way they are.  There's nothing wrong with believing what you believe.  There's nothing wrong with espousing those beliefs.  Just remember that no two people will view everything exactly the same though.  

Ross

But also, Garand, not everyone that owns a gun has to be think like you. What about gay pro-choice people that own guns?? My ex-girlfriend's dad refused to discuss religion or politics, and we get along great. But I know he thinks differentky than me. Way diff. But he is a normal guy that lives in Hollywood, so it must be a constant assault on his senses. but he is a good man.
Rob

All I'm going to say is, Garandman, I know what you mean and I kinda think the same way.

I normally don't respond to post's like this but what the hell.  2 Yrs ago Me and Wifey planned to have our first kid.  Well thought out pregnancy, Paid for in advance, and we were ready for the ride.  It seems someone had other plans for us, they took my son out after 6 months of gestation (1lb 12oz) because he was killing (Literaly) my wife.  She (I still am) was pro-life until that happend.  (Sean is doing fine).  She told me the other day that she thought she might be pregnant.  She also told me she did not want to have the baby if she was.  This is my wife of 11yrs, I will not abandon her over this.  I want another child ( hopefully a little girl) but I don't know how to convince her, if she is indeed pregnant, to have the baby.  I wasn't the one who almost died for him.  She is very scared, not worried, scared.  I don't condone it by no means, but I won't not support my wife as far as "Her" health is concerned over the matter.  I'm at a loss for words I hope whatever the decision is its the right one for us both.

This is real not what I'm saying I would do.

I gotta go with Ross and Deerslayer on this one.  I believe what I do on a case-by-case basis.  I have some beliefs that would be considered moderate, some conservative, and some liberal.  I also believe everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, so long as they don't try to force them on others.  

I'm pro-gun.  If you don't like guns, that's fine, you don't have to own any, just don't tell me I can't.

I'm heterosexual, but I happen to have some gay friends.  They don't try to turn me gay, I don't try to turn them straight, and we get along just fine.  But I don't think that being gay (or black, or female, or whatever) should get anyone any special (or inferior) treatment.  

I'm pro-choice (but anti-abortion).  I don't like abortion.  I would never choose that option.  But I won't force that choice on anyone else, either.

We're all entitled to our make our own choices, even if they happen to be the wrong choices.
That's what free will is all about.





[Edited.  I could have sworn I proof-read... [:|]]

Ross-

Perhaps you miss my point, or I didn't communicate clearly.

I'm GLAD other peopel disagree with me, cuz Lord knows, I DO NOT have it all figured out.

what my beef is is this -

...that other peoples beliefs about non-gun issues contradict THEIR beliefs about RKBA.

Which of course is FINE, except for the fact that IMO it will eventually affect my ability to own firearms.

OK, full disclosure here....my belief is this -

Liberty in a nation, and I beleive history bears this out, is directly related to that nations obedience to God's laws. As nations have obeyed His laws, freedom has followed. As they have violated His laws, slavery has followed.

So, for RKBA folk to support abortion, and other CLEAR violations of God's laws, will bring slavery to this nation, and ultimately to me as a gun owner.

Not a popular opinion, but its mine.

Uhhhhh.  Maybe that is why this forum is titled General Discussion and not Right Wing Thought Only.  

Frankly, I enjoy the intellectual stimulation that different viewpoints present.  This allows me to feel confident that my beliefs are correct as they pertain to me and me only.  

BTW  I love guns [:)]  and cats [:D]

I have met many a religious person and, with it being such a sensitive topic, it is a wiser man who waits for someone to be willing to hear testimony than to try to force it upon others, further alienating them.



You and I have disagree on this in the past.  I still agree to disagree with you.  



So answer me this, oh holier than thou... when's the last time you made a burnt offering?  Ever have lustful thoughts about a woman other than your wife?  Do you tithe the minimum 10% or do you give more, as was asked of you by the Lord?  Have you forgotten, "Judge not, lest ye be judged"?

You sneer about mixing and matching but the fact is that NOONE will ever attain perfection in the eyes of the Lord and that means we ALL will fall short in some way.  People do the best that they can and try to understand and care for each other... that's kind of hard to do when someone else is constantly criticizing people.  

Thank you for pointing out the splinter in my eye, but is that a plank I see in yours??    

   

And re: the "religion has caused wars, oppression, loss of freedom and slavery" idea, follow the logic:

We all believe that just because someone MISUSES a firearm to commit a crime DOES NOT make the FIREARM evil, or give support for the banning of firearms.

Similarly....

...just because someone MISUSES God  to cause a war, or claim God told them to kill someone DOES NOT make God or religious faith evil, or give support for atheism being a superior viewpoint.

These types of logical inconsistencies KILL me.

One of many, friend.

.

It's not the religion, it's the FANATICISM and ZEALOTRY! You seem to have both qualities, as much as you thump the Bible around here.

No, Sorry, pro choice? What, your choice? Who asked the kid, hell who asked the father? I think he had as much to do with it as the woman did. You want to kill a child because it makes your life easyier? I just can't go with that.

Rew

So what should I do????

Believe in a religious set of values that I can easily set aside?? Should I ONLY beleive what I beleive in church, and adopt another set of ideals for this Discussion Board?? Wouldn't I then be guilty of hypocrisy?? Should I keep my mouth shut, and be the nice little patsy??

And what exactly have I done to be a "zealot" or "fanatical??"

Have I come to your house with a bullhorn and shouted salvation messages at you??

Have I held a gun to the head of one of your family memners and required them to read Scripture??

Have I called your employer and accused you of not beleiving the Genesis account of creation, in an effort to get you fired??

NO.

By SIMPLY stating what I believe from a thousand miles away from you, THAT makes me a zealot, or fanatical???

the ONLY thing I have done is called into question your beliefs, and welcomed you to do the same to mine. THAT defines a "fanatic" now a-days?? Then everyone of your school teachers and college profs is a "fanatic."

THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT - we live in an era when the epitomy of evil is to hold to a core set of beliefs. The ONLY thing worse than that is to openly speak them.

And here's the rub - from where I stand, the gap between us, as RKBA proponents, and the full fledged flaming Leftist is narrowing. And I don't like that.

g'man, you whine like a school girl. your probably an ok guy but just very concerned with your views. i do understand that, so am i.

let's just say, we all shouldn't think alike. it is about freedom. you don't want to live by my rules and i won't live by yours and that is why we all have firearms.

in addition, my ability to decide for myself has led me to believe that oprah is a fat idiot whose only goal is to amass enough money to insure she can feed herself.

you need to just understand that not everyone is you. quit trying to save the world because some of us are happy and don't want to be rescued. if you want to rescue something, make it the continued freedom to make your own decisions. that way we all win. i really don't agree with neo nazis and hard core racists, but i won't force them to think in a different way. it is their freedom too.

It just about goes without saying that I disagree with garandman.  Just because someone supports the constitution and the bill of rights doesn't automatically make them a conservative or religious.
I am conservative on some issues, libertarian-leaning on most issues and downright reactionary on some issues (I can't think of any issues I am a liberal on), but I wholeheartedly support the RKBA and a strict reading of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
I know g-man would love to pigeon-hole anyone that disagrees with his fundamentalist view of reality as a liberal, but the facts say otherwise.
Abortion seems to be the hot-button topic of this thread and I can't honestly say I have a set-in-stone position on the subject. On the one hand, I dislike it and would never advise anyone to get one.  I think there is a good deal of scientific evidence that after about 8 weeks (the beginning of electrical activity in the brain), the fetus is an aware being.  On the other hand, I think that criminalizing abortion would cause far more problems than it solves.  The solution, it seems to me, is to educate and also to provide readily-available alternatives to those that are pregnant but can't afford or can't handle a child.  I think our society's screwed-up attitude towards sex is one of the main causes of unwanted pregnancy...parents are afraid to talk to their kids about sex, those that do give the unrealistic and unhelpful "Just say no!" speech, and then the kids are bombarded by unrealistic, consequence-free images of sex in the movies, advertising, etc while being told by authority figures that they should abstain.  That just aint gonna work.
As for other issues, I am for the decriminalization of most drugs and the legalization (and taxation) of marijuana. I am for the legalization, regulation and taxation of prostitution. I am for the death penalty though I would like to see the process speeded up and made both more efficient and fair. I am against prison sentences for nonviolent offenders---we need to keep the prisons for those who actively harm people and use alternative sentences for nonviolent felons.
I am for any private organization's right to include or exclude anyone they choose as a member.  I am for the freedom of churches to preach whatever they want. I am againt the personal income tax. I am very much for spending more money on space exploration and exploitation and less money on welfare and foreign aid.  I am very much of the opinion that as long as consenting adults are involved, the government should keep its nose out of people's sex lives.  I am opposed to affirmative action and set-asides.  I am for privatizing our public school system completely and giving vouchers to parents: let competition decide which schools succeed and which fail.
Anyway, that's just a sample of my beliefs, and they are hard to pigeon-hole as any particular political niche.  And that's as it should be IMHO.

Ahhhh, good!!!!!!! A basis for concensus between us!!!!!!

One difference tho - Orca has to make enuf to feed Rosie as well, cuz Rosie's BIG MOUTH got her CANNED!!!!!!!

[}:D]

g'man, i disagree. i don't belive oprah will ever have enough to feed them both. that is why rosie is also a money grubbing fat ass.

Your beliefs are yours. Keep 'em. When you try to "save" me you are crossing a line. When you try to pass legislation to force your belief system on others, you are crossing a line. I really only object to your incessant Bible-thumping and pro-life rhetoric, and the ludicrous notion that if I don't buy your doctrine, I am somehow aiding and abetting "the full fledged flaming Left", or that anyone who does not share your morality is next to a liberal. You seem to feel that, because of your beliefs, you have a special dispensation from GOD to throw your morality in peoples faces, regardless of their inalienable right to believe what they want to. THAT is zealotry.

It seems we both believe in RKBA, and share a common interest in the AR15 rifle (I like my Garands, too). Let's just leave it at that. [BD]

Believe it or not, it was NOT my intention to single out abortion as the bell weather test of Liberal vs. Conservative.

re: abortion specifically, many within religious cricles are doing EXACTLY whay you spoecified above - educating young women in responsible sexuality, proving options, like adoption, and providing food and shelter to women in crisis. I fully support that.

What I dislike are the "Operation Rescue" types who turn an abortion clinic into a battle zone. I detest thos who think the cure to abortion is to shoot doctors. THAT is murder.

Again, Believe it or not, I find ALOT in your statement above that I agree with.

The problem here is that just about ANY TIME someone takes a Biblical stand on an issue, they are "pigeon-holed" (to use your term) and steroetyped as thinking that they ALSO beleive gov't should be used to  FORCE everyone to adopt my views, or Biblical views. I don't.

It was a HUGE disaster when Constantine tried that. In fact, the MOST negative effect was on teh Church itself.

God NEVER intended gov't COMPEL people to obey Him. In fact, God HATES forced obedience. He would ALMOST prefer you disobey Him from a free mind and will.

What God seeks is free-will obedience to Him. Whre a person has weighed out the consequences of obedience vs. disobedience, and CHOOSES to obey God feely, without external force being applied to Him.

[b] YOU GUYS THINK YOU KNOW WHERE I AM COMING FROM, BUT YOU DON'T [/b]

Wreck -

Rather than a "dispensation" or authorization, it is more of a command from God that I do what I do.

And you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT - WHEN I find someone doesn't want what I'm sellin', it is ABSOLUTELY time for me to  shut up. Even the Bible tells me to do that.

Problem is, I gotta find out who those people are. So, I keep throwin' bread out on th water. truth is, FAR more than the people who post here, rad what is posted here. And its between them and God what they do with this info. So, far, you and sterygirl have BOTH declared that you don't need savin'. So I'll quit,as I should.

I can't stop posting what I beleive (for reasons as above) but when I see one of your posts, I will TRY to remember what you have politely asked, and pipe down. If I forget, just rap me over the head, and I'm sure it will all come back to me.  [:D]

FWIW, I like the AR, but I LOVE my garands. Its almost unnatural, man. [;)]

Whooo! Triple tap [:D].

Garands are so cool. Say G-man, ever shot a CMP Garand match? Loads 'a fun, and I got the coolest t-shirt from Camp Perry. Won a bronze, missed a silver by one point.

Actually, next weekend will be my first competetive Garand shoot. I am looking forward to it. I'm takin' my match Garandy!!!!!

And YES, I am ashamed that this is ONLY my first!!! [BD]

1. All have sinned and are condemned
2. Matt 13:3...Jesus said, "I tell you, except that you repent, you will all likewise perish."
The difference between being saved and unsaved isnt that you never sin..its that sin is no longer an exceptable state for you..and you repent..Why? because the spirit of the living Christ is in your heart...and sin is something you no longer wish to enjoy but to be rid of..abortion is murder...the child is an indepenent being not a part of the women but totaly unique and individual..so call it what it is ..dont mask it some some b.s. womens lib present day political feel good crap..its murder if that is exceptable to you so be it...if murder isnt exceptable to you ..and you have comitted it ..even though our society at this stage in its decline..sponsers and advocates murder..if you find it evil..repent ...and oppose it..but dont try to rationalize it...into acceptable behavior for any sin can be rationalized into acceptable behavior..and all soceities that fail eventually slouch morally until evil is called good and good  called evil...

Situational ethics dont make character...in fact this is the  biggest lie of all...situations dont determine moral acts...morality comes from absoultes that are not violated at any cost...the ten commandments are absolutes not debateable ...written in stone..God is an absolute God..a God of right and wrong..situational ethics make man god ...man the final arbiter of right and wrong and not God..God is trans situational...and above situations..We walk by faith not by sight...faith takes you beyond yourself beyond what you can see at the moment..beyond your fear of death..because you have faith that the Lord died in your place..and through Him you live..situational ethics is cowardice
and selfishness ..but it is humanity personified...it is the nature of man

I'm pro gun, but I must say I'm pro choice also. Here is my reason why I'm pro choice.

I may not really believe in the concept of abortions but I believe if a child is born they have a right to be loved and feel wanted.  More than a right, I feel it is a necessity for their proper mental upbringing.  You could take away a woman's right to get an abortion but by making her have a child she doesn't want will she automaticly give the child the love it deserves?  Hell no if she doesn't want it she'll end up raising the child like he or she is a unwanted burden.  Too many children these days are screwed up because they don't recieve the love they need to grow into a decient loving person.  I'd rather be pro choice than see children suffer because they are unwanted.

I shouldn't start this up, but thought it was an interesting concept -

Of all people, Dr. Laura brought it up (she EVEN annoys me)

Extend your example to handicapped people. They got it rough too. But how many unwanted / handicapped people are out there making a significant contribution to society, that ONLY they can make, that would be lost if they had been aborted?? I guess what I am saying is that we NEED "screwed up" (i.ee.non-perfect)  people in this world just as much as we need the "perfect" people.

Not trying to convince ya, just throwing out a thought.

I shouldn't start this up, but thought it was an interesting concept -

Of all people, Dr. Laura brought it up (she EVEN annoys me)

Extend your example to handicapped people. They got it rough too. But how many unwanted / handicapped people are out there making a significant contribution to society, that ONLY they can make, that would be lost if they had been aborted?? I guess what I am saying is that we NEED "screwed up" (i.ee.non-perfect)  people in this world just as much as we need the "perfect" people.

Not trying to convince ya, just throwing out a thought.

The bottom line is the real problem in America is that nobody takes responsibility for themselves. Women have abortions because they didn't keep thier pants up or use protection, guys are just as much as responsible as women are for this. I understand if having the baby could endanger the mother but most people use it as a birth control. The misuse of guns causes people to want to ban them. It's not the guns fault, its the person behind the gun. If the justice system would punish criminals like they should, people would quite commiting so many crimes. Let the punishment actually fit the crime. And another thing, I'm tired of people complaining about racisim. Minorities always complain they have it so bad. Thats why we have affirmative action. Give me a break. If people got jobs because they were better qualified thats great but how is it fair people get jobs based on color or race? And people living off of wellfair? More people should start pulling their weight. That was designed to help people in need, not to be taken advantaged of so people can get a free ride off of honest tax payers. Now a days people want to get by with as little work as possible, have someone else support them, and take no responsibility for themselves. If a kid goes into a school and starts shooting up the place its not his fault, its the movie industries fault, or the computer game industries fault, or his thirdgrade teachers fault for not calling on him when his little hand was raised. Someone commits a crime the the criminal gets off with a slap on the wrist because he was brought up in a broken home and was misstreated. We're raised in a country today where you don't have to take responsibility for your own actions and thats why it's in the shape its in. It's not right to whip your kids anymore because it promotes violence. It's better to give them a time out. How about giving me a break. When I was growing up and got into trouble I got my ass whipped and it taught me not to do that again. People just need to stop laying the blame on someone else and start taking responsibility for themselves.

Okay, I will accept your word on it.



So do I.



I agree completely.  However, I also empathize with their position, since you accept the idea that full-fledged human life begins at conception, as they do, then it is perfectly justifiable from an ethical standpoint to target the "murderers."  From their view, it is akin to assasinating Nazi concentration camp guards.  Now, I don't accept that point of view, and I think it does a lot to hurt their cause in the public eye, but I don't consider them crazy for doing it...they are simply zealous in the pursuit of their belief.  



That's good.  I don't have a problem with ANYONE'S beliefs as long as they don't try to get the government to mandate them or use them as an excuse to hurt others.  That doesn't mean I won't argue the issue if THEY bring it up (as you know...) [:D]



Well, it DID have the positive effect of keeping professing Christians from being executed. [;)]

I'm just a man with my own opinions Garandman.  With your example that you threw out may I say this.  I love my children, neither one of them are handicapped.  If they were I would love them no less than I do now.  I would think the majority of handicapped people that have become productive members of society grew up in a home that love was given regardless of of their affliction.  No doubt there are exceptions to this but I'd bet a dollar to a donut that it isn't the norm.  

You get my vote, garandman.

It frustrates the hell out of me too, the way some of these "libertarians" that are Pro-gun also support abortion.  But this thread looks like your argument.  Your doing a good job.