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Posted: 1/18/2015 6:56:37 PM EDT
[#1]
It's the government, it doesn't have to make sense.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 6:56:46 PM EDT
[#2]
Dear lord ENOUGH
it is classification |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 6:57:33 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dear lord ENOUGH How many Sig brace threads is this now? 150? |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 6:57:50 PM EDT
[#4]
Right on, IN for another Sig Brace/ATF thread...
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:02:57 PM EDT
[#5]
Lock it down.......
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:08:55 PM EDT
[#6]
What? Did something happen with the SIG brace? Anyone care to fill us in?
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:08:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dear lord ENOUGH |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:09:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Oh why not.
In. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:11:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lock it down....... This thread is not about the sig brace, its about saying how you hold a gun defines legally what it is. Would you shoot an ar pistol with only one hand? What about a Pap? |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:12:37 PM EDT
[#10]
ATF and NFA is stupid bullshit.
If you shoulder a buffer tube on an AR pistol is it now a stock? If I sit my 1911 on my shoulder is it an SBR now? If I shoot my AR with one hand is it a pistol? Use does not determine classification. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:16:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread is not about the sig brace, its about saying how you hold a gun defines legally what it is. Would you shoot an ar pistol with only one hand? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Lock it down....... This thread is not about the sig brace, its about saying how you hold a gun defines legally what it is. Would you shoot an ar pistol with only one hand? Thanks. I know the ATF just gave a harebrained ruling on the sig brace. I'm mainly wanting to discuss an apparent major shift in ATF policy, saying that firearms laws that have typically pertained to specific hardware can now be applied to the way a weapon is used. This could now be applied to slidefire stocks, bump firing, etc. This could possibly be a major game changer in the way the ATF attempts to charge people.... |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:16:08 PM EDT
[#12]
I am really tire of these threads.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:16:27 PM EDT
[#13]
Its only a matter of time before they declare the brace as a stock.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:17:46 PM EDT
[#14]
Its totally fine, im just glad they clarified that depending on how you use a gun makes it different.
i have this 10,5 inch ar with a stock on it, but i always just hold it one handed by the pistol grip and fire it so i dont need a stamp. ITS COOL GUYS YOU DONT NEED STAMPS JUST DONT SHOOT SBRS FROM THE SHOULDERS RIGHT? |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:18:06 PM EDT
[#15]
My Sig Brace will not be sold. I just don't plan on being stupid with it.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:18:07 PM EDT
[#16]
The sig brace was screwed more by gun owners than anything, to much bear poking.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:18:45 PM EDT
[#17]
You guys are posting on a gun forum quit whining about the amount of gun related threads. If you want to chat about something else go to a forum for that
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:18:52 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its totally fine, im just glad they clarified that depending on how you use a gun makes it different. i have this 10,5 inch ar with a stock on it, but i always just hold it one handed by the pistol grip and fire it so i dont need a stamp. ITS COOL GUYS YOU DONT NEED STAMPS JUST DONT SHOOT SBRS FROM THE SHOULDERS RIGHT? Yeah, I'm re-designing all my AR's as pistols! |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:20:08 PM EDT
[#19]
sig brace is the new thing "shoulder thing that goes up".
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:20:11 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its totally fine, im just glad they clarified that depending on how you use a gun makes it different. i have this 10,5 inch ar with a stock on it, but i always just hold it one handed by the pistol grip and fire it so i dont need a stamp. ITS COOL GUYS YOU DONT NEED STAMPS JUST DONT SHOOT SBRS FROM THE SHOULDERS RIGHT? This. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:20:11 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its totally fine, im just glad they clarified that depending on how you use a gun makes it different. i have this 10,5 inch ar with a stock on it, but i always just hold it one handed by the pistol grip and fire it so i dont need a stamp. ITS COOL GUYS YOU DONT NEED STAMPS JUST DONT SHOOT SBRS FROM THE SHOULDERS RIGHT? This. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:20:17 PM EDT
[#22]
What if you hold it sideways?
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:20:46 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Its totally fine, im just glad they clarified that depending on how you use a gun makes it different. i have this 10,5 inch ar with a stock on it, but i always just hold it one handed by the pistol grip and fire it so i dont need a stamp. ITS COOL GUYS YOU DONT NEED STAMPS JUST DONT SHOOT SBRS FROM THE SHOULDERS RIGHT? This. This. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:21:10 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Its totally fine, im just glad they clarified that depending on how you use a gun makes it different. i have this 10,5 inch ar with a stock on it, but i always just hold it one handed by the pistol grip and fire it so i dont need a stamp. ITS COOL GUYS YOU DONT NEED STAMPS JUST DONT SHOOT SBRS FROM THE SHOULDERS RIGHT? This. This. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:27:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATF and NFA is stupid bullshit. If you shoulder a buffer tube on an AR pistol is it now a stock? If I sit my 1911 on my shoulder is it an SBR now? If I shoot my AR with one hand is it a pistol? Use does not determine classification. Except that they are now setting precedent that use does determine classification. My point is discussing this can of worms. Previously their position was all about hardware. Now it's about use. So: Does an autosear make a gun a machinegun if you only fire it on semi automatic? Can I put a retractable stock on an MP5 clone pistol if it's never extended out, and the gun is only used as a "pistol'? Does bumpfiring make a semi auto a machinegun because it fires at a machinegun-like rate of fire? I know the ATF is not known for logical rulings, but this one is beyond all comprehension. If they didn't like the Sig brace and felt like too many people were using it as an illegal stock, they should have banned it and declared them illegal.....
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:27:30 PM EDT
[#26]
I think that what's significant here has nothing to do with the brace itself. Previously, ATF said what was a legal configuration and what was not.
With this latest letter, they are trying to define how a firearm is USED.. This is a dangerous precedent and needs to be curtailed. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:29:04 PM EDT
[#27]
MOD's must be off for the Holiday weekend as this BS is getting as old as Ruth Ginsberg's snapper
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:30:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MOD's must be off for the Holiday weekend as this BS is getting as old as Ruth Ginsberg's snapper This thread isn't about the sig brace, it's about the ATF declaring that USE now determines classification.... |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:31:40 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except that they are now setting precedent that use does determine classification. My point is discussing this can of worms. Previously their position was all about hardware. Now it's about use. So: Does an autosear make a gun a machinegun if you only fire it on semi automatic? Can I put a retractable stock on an MP5 clone pistol if it's never extended out, and the gun is only used as a "pistol'? Does bumpfiring make a semi auto a machinegun because it fires at a machinegun-like rate of fire? I know the ATF is not known for logical rulings, but this one is beyond all comprehension. If they didn't like the Sig brace and felt like too many people were using it as an illegal stock, they should have banned it and declared them illegal..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
ATF and NFA is stupid bullshit. If you shoulder a buffer tube on an AR pistol is it now a stock? If I sit my 1911 on my shoulder is it an SBR now? If I shoot my AR with one hand is it a pistol? Use does not determine classification. Except that they are now setting precedent that use does determine classification. My point is discussing this can of worms. Previously their position was all about hardware. Now it's about use. So: Does an autosear make a gun a machinegun if you only fire it on semi automatic? Can I put a retractable stock on an MP5 clone pistol if it's never extended out, and the gun is only used as a "pistol'? Does bumpfiring make a semi auto a machinegun because it fires at a machinegun-like rate of fire? I know the ATF is not known for logical rulings, but this one is beyond all comprehension. If they didn't like the Sig brace and felt like too many people were using it as an illegal stock, they should have banned it and declared them illegal..... I know. I was saying that the ATF was incorrect by saying that the way you use a gun determines what it is. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:31:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread isn't about the sig brace, it's about the ATF declaring that USE now determines classification.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
MOD's must be off for the Holiday weekend as this BS is getting as old as Ruth Ginsberg's snapper This thread isn't about the sig brace, it's about the ATF declaring that USE now determines classification.... It has sig brace in the title...so it's kind of about the sig brace. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:31:43 PM EDT
[#31]
I wish. With ATF telling manufacturers that their products are good to go
then suddenly changing their minds after the fact is flat out wrong. It shows the absolute arrogance and/or incompetence on those making the decisions and is out right display of the reasons why gov't agencies should not have this kind of authority to themselves. But with that said......NOTHING will ever be done about it without a massive revolt. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:34:06 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wish. With ATF telling manufacturers that their products are good to gothen suddenly changing their minds after the fact is flat out wrong. It shows the absolute incompetence on those making the decisions and is out right display of the reasons why gov't agencies should not have this kind of authority to themselves. But with that said......NOTHING will ever be done about it without a massive revolt. Something needs to be done at the political level. With the fines and jail sentences involved, we're not talking about a hassle, we're talking about destroying people's lives. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:34:31 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its only a matter of time before they declare the brace as a stock. And Sig, a relatively large company with lawyers and shit in house, had to know that ahead of time. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:36:14 PM EDT
[#34]
Op
You are exactly right. It is dangerous and sets the stage for the bumpfiring is redesigning argument which is sure to come next. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:36:36 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Its totally fine, im just glad they clarified that depending on how you use a gun makes it different. i have this 10,5 inch ar with a stock on it, but i always just hold it one handed by the pistol grip and fire it so i dont need a stamp. ITS COOL GUYS YOU DONT NEED STAMPS JUST DONT SHOOT SBRS FROM THE SHOULDERS RIGHT? This. This. That |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:36:46 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Its totally fine, im just glad they clarified that depending on how you use a gun makes it different. i have this 10,5 inch ar with a stock on it, but i always just hold it one handed by the pistol grip and fire it so i dont need a stamp. ITS COOL GUYS YOU DONT NEED STAMPS JUST DONT SHOOT SBRS FROM THE SHOULDERS RIGHT? This. This. That |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:38:45 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Something needs to be done at the political level. With the fines and jail sentences involved, we're not talking about a hassle, we're talking about destroying people's lives. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I wish. With ATF telling manufacturers that their products are good to gothen suddenly changing their minds after the fact is flat out wrong. It shows the absolute incompetence on those making the decisions and is out right display of the reasons why gov't agencies should not have this kind of authority to themselves. But with that said......NOTHING will ever be done about it without a massive revolt. Something needs to be done at the political level. With the fines and jail sentences involved, we're not talking about a hassle, we're talking about destroying people's lives. I have every confidence that no matter the amount of complaining neither party will touch the issue. What are we going to do? Nada. End of game. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:40:51 PM EDT
[#38]
[Jump To Reply]Quoted:
Quoted: Quoted: Its totally fine, im just glad they clarified that depending on how you use a gun makes it different. i have this 10,5 inch ar with a stock on it, but i always just hold it one handed by the pistol grip and fire it so i dont need a stamp. ITS COOL GUYS YOU DONT NEED STAMPS JUST DONT SHOOT SBRS FROM THE SHOULDERS RIGHT? This. This. That The other thing |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:41:21 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Op You are exactly right. It is dangerous and sets the stage for the bumpfiring is redesigning argument which is sure to come next. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:44:44 PM EDT
[#40]
its just bullshit
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:45:22 PM EDT
[#41]
Seriously, if I only fire my full-auto M-16 on semi-auto does that make it an AR15? HOW I use it MAKES it what it is, right?
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:47:09 PM EDT
[#42]
if the government finds itself getting to be a little irrelevant, the people more law abiding, then it just makes up a new law.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:48:16 PM EDT
[#43]
Think about the psychological impact that this "opinion letter" has being issued the week before the biggest shooting sports event in the country.
This is more about showing the power of the government to rewrite laws and regulations than anything else. This is nothing more than ATF giving the shooting industry a great big "FU WE ARE IN CHARGE", so nothing else will be talked about during SHOT except their ruling. So how many folks working the aisles at SHOT will be willing to look at or hold anything containing a SIG Brace? Timing is everything. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:48:28 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's the government, it doesn't have to make sense. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:49:20 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Its totally fine, im just glad they clarified that depending on how you use a gun makes it different. i have this 10,5 inch ar with a stock on it, but i always just hold it one handed by the pistol grip and fire it so i dont need a stamp. ITS COOL GUYS YOU DONT NEED STAMPS JUST DONT SHOOT SBRS FROM THE SHOULDERS RIGHT? This. This. This |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:49:47 PM EDT
[#46]
So can I make an M16, but only shoot it on semi?
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:50:21 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And Sig, a relatively large company with lawyers and shit in house, had to know that ahead of time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Its only a matter of time before they declare the brace as a stock. And Sig, a relatively large company with lawyers and shit in house, had to know that ahead of time. THIS I think it was Sig's plan all along.
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:56:54 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seriously, if I only fire my full-auto M-16 on semi-auto does that make it an AR15? HOW I use it MAKES it what it is, right? Exactly. So can I import an old M16A1 receiver, remove the autosear and replace the fire control parts with AR15 parts and be good to go? The weapon surely won't fire on full auto, and for all intents and purposes is an AR15, not an M16. But the ATF will arrest you for possession of an unregistered machinegun if you do this, and then try to prove to the court that the weapon is a machine gun because it is "readily convertible" to a machine gun. Their logic is completely contradictory in enforcing different parts of the same law. How can use determine classification, when previously (at least with machineguns) they used the "readily convertible" idea to determine what was allowed or not. |
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:57:11 PM EDT
[#49]
fucking loooove sig brace threads
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Posted: 1/18/2015 7:58:14 PM EDT
[#50]
IBTL.
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