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Posted: 7/28/2002 5:20:56 AM EDT
[#1]
[:K]
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Posted: 7/28/2002 5:23:16 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: First let me say this is not a Ranger bashing type of thing, in fact it is the opposite. I respect them . So I am a little upset that they have men die returning a dead body to base camp? The guy is dead anything that happens to him, he is well passed it, and to have soldiers die just to return a corpse, seems dumb to me, the family of a dead Ranger I am sure would not want any other family to go without their son just to save a corpse for burial. Now different story for wounded, sure,try and get a fellow solider back. Anyway The Ranger creed seems foolish to me whens it costs lives needlessly, and to serve no real purpose, other than helping the enemy kill more Rangers. It's about respect and brotherhood. Those things are part of Esprit de Corps, which lies at the heart of being an elite warrior. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 5:23:56 AM EDT
[#3]
Many people don't understand, and I'm not going to explain it. You have to be there to understand the reasons...it goes much deeper than just a Creed!
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Posted: 7/28/2002 5:29:16 AM EDT
[#4]
I think that it is more of a morale/pride thing.
I would think that it reinforces the team work mentality,. "Leave no man behind"...everybody is coming home at the end of the mission, no matter what. You are not going to be put on display by the enemy, and how much more of a friend can you have than someone who is willing to put their life on the line to retrieve your [u]body[/u]. Nobody wants to be left behind in enemy territory, not even when they're dead. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 5:37:54 AM EDT
[#5]
Esprit de corps
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Posted: 7/28/2002 5:39:03 AM EDT
[#6]
I posted this after watching the Documentary about "black hawk down" they had Rangers saying they stayed in the area for ten hours because they could not get the chopper pilots body out of it , he was pinned in it. They lost some soldiers doing this, and well it seemed to be a waste of fighting men to me. I understand "pride in ones self and ones unit", but feel it would be better to kill the enemy, than have him kill you. I know the creed will never change it's tradition, it just needs some common sense application.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 5:39:54 AM EDT
[#7]
Because their your brother!!! Hell, even I understand that!!! Dude, your wrong and going to coatch a lot of flak for this one.
Sgtar15 |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 5:39:58 AM EDT
[#8]
I'm sorry, but I really can't believe that retrieving American fighting men could even be THOUGHT of as an issue. Color me pissed.[pissed]
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Posted: 7/28/2002 5:44:28 AM EDT
[#9]
it's the difference between a ranger and any other guerilla force.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 6:04:56 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: I'm sorry, but I really can't believe that retrieving American fighting men could even be THOUGHT of as an issue. Color me pissed.[pissed] Would you be pissed if the only reason your son was killed was because he was retrieving someones corpse?? |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 6:22:50 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: I posted this after watching the Documentary about "black hawk down" they had Rangers saying they stayed in the area for ten hours because they could not get the chopper pilots body out of it , he was pinned in it. They lost some soldiers doing this, and well it seemed to be a waste of fighting men to me. I understand "pride in ones self and ones unit", but feel it would be better to kill the enemy, than have him kill you. I know the creed will never change it's tradition, it just needs some common sense application. It would have been common sense to fly unlimited C-130 gunships over the area 24/7's laying down billions of rounds (ideal use of tax dollars, IMHO) as needed to exterminate ALL non-Amercians within 1000-yards of the dead chopper pilots. Then you just waltz in and take out the body of your comrades at leisure and NOT under enemy fire. But, as we know, common sense is not so common. PC continues to rule our every decision. We continue to loose good men when we could just bomb, blast, strafe, or nuke at will. Just what the heck is the use in being THE only "super power" if you aren't going to use your super power? |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 6:24:39 AM EDT
[#12]
Ok, another thought. I am the enemy, I know I am fighting Rangers, "not a good thing" but I got to do it. So I have a sniper team set up, kill a Ranger then knowing they will come for the body go about my job and kill more Rangers. Never give the enemy a chance. Payback for a fallen buddy, yes , letting the a**holes kill me, and laughing about the creed those Rangers follow, I'm not to sure about it. Now let me say this AGAIN I respect the Army Rangers, and the last thing I would want to do is piss one off. I think that is why maybe I am so at odds with this operating procedure.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 6:40:34 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: I posted this after watching the Documentary about "black hawk down" they had Rangers saying they stayed in the area for ten hours because they could not get the chopper pilots body out of it , he was pinned in it. They lost some soldiers doing this, and well it seemed to be a waste of fighting men to me. I understand "pride in ones self and ones unit", but feel it would be better to kill the enemy, than have him kill you. I know the creed will never change it's tradition, it just needs some common sense application. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 6:43:24 AM EDT
[#14]
Don't worry, I won't bash you either, you just don't understand. I would try to explain it here, but it would take too long, it's not the kind of warrior spirit that can be learned from a website.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 6:46:47 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Don't worry, I won't bash you either, you just don't understand. I would try to explain it here, but it would take too long, it's not the kind of warrior spirit that can be learned from a website. Best response so far. the_reject |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 6:51:16 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Quoted: I'm sorry, but I really can't believe that retrieving American fighting men could even be THOUGHT of as an issue. Color me pissed.[pissed] Would you be pissed if the only reason your son was killed was because he was retrieving someones corpse?? I would be honored by my sons actions for anything he did while serving our country. I would do the same if possible. SOmethings are worth dying for. Pride, Honor and Family are three of them. Sgtar15 |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:00:33 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Don't worry, I won't bash you either, you just don't understand. I would try to explain it here, but it would take too long, it's not the kind of warrior spirit that can be learned from a website. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:06:13 AM EDT
[#18]
I am not going to argue. I am just stunned that anyone would want an American to lay rotting on some Godforsaken piece of ground rather than to come home. I am truly disgusted.
You are welcome to your opinion, but I hope I wouldn't ever have to serve with someone that shared it. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:09:27 AM EDT
[#19]
Even if it is "stupid" I think that its atleast nice that they have an "official" reason to stay around and kill whatever third world human feces killed their own guy.
On a more serious note, don't you remember the blackhawk down pictures when it happened? I remember seeing a bunch of savages dragging our guys around and was sickened by it. I wish they sent a clean up crew into Mog and wiped out the hostiles (everyone) before we pulled out completely. Put your argument into a context before you criticize. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:15:55 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Ok, another thought. I am the enemy, I know I am fighting Rangers, "not a good thing" but I got to do it. So I have a sniper team set up, kill a Ranger then knowing they will come for the body go about my job and kill more Rangers. Never give the enemy a chance. Payback for a fallen buddy, yes , letting the a**holes kill me, and laughing about the creed those Rangers follow, I'm not to sure about it. the object of war is to make the other bastard die for his cause. yea. snipe one and zero the morters on the body and wait. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:21:37 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Quoted: I posted this after watching the Documentary about "black hawk down" they had Rangers saying they stayed in the area for ten hours because they could not get the chopper pilots body out of it , he was pinned in it. They lost some soldiers doing this, and well it seemed to be a waste of fighting men to me. I understand "pride in ones self and ones unit", but feel it would be better to kill the enemy, than have him kill you. I know the creed will never change it's tradition, it just needs some common sense application. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:26:15 AM EDT
[#22]
3 words: LtCdr Scott Speicher.
I bet he wishes that the USN cared as much about it's fallen as the USMC or Rangers. Since he only got left behind in Iraq for the past 11 years. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:28:01 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Quoted: I'm sorry, but I really can't believe that retrieving American fighting men could even be THOUGHT of as an issue. Color me pissed.[pissed] Would you be pissed if the only reason your son was killed was because he was retrieving someones corpse?? Liberty86 & bountyhunter, Would you leave the body of your son, brother, or father behind for those animals to desecrate? Those men went back to get their fallen commrad because they [b]KNEW[/b] if the tables were reversed he would risk everything to get them back. Some things ARE worse then death. If my son should die while recovering a fallen commrad then he will have passed on with Honor and Dignity. People join the armed forces to serve their country. They fight and die to save each other. They stay and fight because the fear of being labled a coward is bigger then the fear of death. They recover their dead because it is the honorable thing to do for their commrad and his family and their service. Honor, Courage, Commitment. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:28:48 AM EDT
[#24]
If you have to ask............. [:k]
AB |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:29:04 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Quoted: Ok, another thought. I am the enemy, I know I am fighting Rangers, "not a good thing" but I got to do it. So I have a sniper team set up, kill a Ranger then knowing they will come for the body go about my job and kill more Rangers. Never give the enemy a chance. Payback for a fallen buddy, yes , letting the a**holes kill me, and laughing about the creed those Rangers follow, I'm not to sure about it. the object of war is to make the other bastard die for his cause. yea. snipe one and zero the morters on the body and wait. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:32:58 AM EDT
[#26]
hey bounty? were in the military, and i dont mean the Air force. it lifts an emotional burden off of you to know that no matter what happens your buddies will take care of you. its worth it!
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:33:50 AM EDT
[#27]
Okay now. Take deep breaths. Count to ten. Calm down. Breathe. Breathe. Breathe. Breathe. Relax. Aim. Slack. Squeeze.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:37:14 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: First let me say this is not a Ranger bashing type of thing, in fact it is the opposite. I respect them . So I am a little upset that they have men die returning a dead body to base camp? The guy is dead anything that happens to him, he is well passed it, and to have soldiers die just to return a corpse, seems dumb to me, the family of a dead Ranger I am sure would not want any other family to go without their son just to save a corpse for burial. Now different story for wounded, sure,try and get a fellow solider back. Anyway The Ranger creed seems foolish to me whens it costs lives needlessly, and to serve no real purpose, other than helping the enemy kill more Rangers. I know you are just confused so I will not reply my first thoughts. Do you have a family? If so upon returning home notice your house is on fire and your loved ones are trapped inside, would you try to retrieve them knowing damned well you could expire in the process? It is also a psychological kind of thing that sets some units above others that allows them to do things most cannot with the knowledge nobody gets left behind |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:38:43 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: hey bounty? were in the military, and i dont mean the Air force. it lifts an emotional burden off of you to know that no matter what happens your buddies will take care of you. its worth it! |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:42:11 AM EDT
[#30]
Mother of fuck!!! I've never been more dissapointed in a thread more than this one!! You will NEVER LEAVE A BUDDY BEHIND. For god sakes, he's your friend, and he would do the same for you!! All of our fighting men deserve to be brought home, and that is that!! [pissed]
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:46:18 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Mother of fuck!!! I've never been more dissapointed in a thread more than this one!! You will NEVER LEAVE A BUDDY BEHIND. For god sakes, he's your friend, and he would do the same for you!! All of our fighting men deserve to be brought home, and that is that!! [pissed] Like I said earlier.............. AB |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:48:04 AM EDT
[#32]
Maybe I should have said if your a kid in high school stay out of this thread or if you have never been shot at stay out of this, or if you have never been in the military stay out of this, armchair warriors are a pain in the ass.
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:53:23 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Maybe I should have said if your a kid in high school stay out of this thread or if you have never been shot at stay out of this, or if you have never been in the military stay out of this, armchair warriors are a pain in the ass. And exactly WTF does this mean?? Now you want to quantify your remarks? Guess what...my opinon counts just as much as anyone elses. I understand Honor and Brotherhood just as much as the next guy....maybe it's you that doesn't!! Sgtar15 |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 7:56:51 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm sorry, but I really can't believe that retrieving American fighting men could even be THOUGHT of as an issue. Color me pissed.[pissed] Would you be pissed if the only reason your son was killed was because he was retrieving someones corpse?? Liberty86 & bountyhunter, Would you leave the body of your son, brother, or father behind for those animals to desecrate? Those men went back to get their fallen commrad because they [b]KNEW[/b] if the tables were reversed he would risk everything to get them back. Some things ARE worse then death. If my son should die while recovering a fallen commrad then he will have passed on with Honor and Dignity. People join the armed forces to serve their country. They fight and die to save each other. They stay and fight because the fear of being labled a coward is bigger then the fear of death. They recover their dead because it is the honorable thing to do for their commrad and his family and their service. Honor, Courage, Commitment. To die acheiving a mission objective is one thing. To die while attempting to SAVE a life is one thing. To die retrieving a corpse is insanity.....The person is gone, no longer in their body. "Let the dead bury the dead". |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:01:19 AM EDT
[#35]
I've been shot at. I've seen people die. There is no way I would want anyone treated the way I've seen some bodies treated. I don't want it done to me, and I DEFINITELY don't want it done to my brothers.
Yeah, maybe I'm "too" gung-ho. Guilty as charged. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:01:50 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Quoted: Maybe I should have said if your a kid in high school stay out of this thread or if you have never been shot at stay out of this, or if you have never been in the military stay out of this, armchair warriors are a pain in the ass. And exactly WTF does this mean?? Now you want to quantify your remarks? Guess what...my opinon counts just as much as anyone elses. I understand Honor and Brotherhood just as much as the next guy....maybe it's you that doesn't!! Sgtar15 |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:02:05 AM EDT
[#37]
I'm going to try to be dispassionate and matter of fact about this. It's all a matter of perspective, I guess.
We live in the modern, technologically refined world. The folks among whom our fighting men are often sent do not. We (in general) have some respect for first world societal norms like respect for the body of a fallen comrade. In America, abuse of a corpse is actually a crime. When our fighting men are sent to a fourth world shithole like the Mog to do Kofi's (or Boutros') dirty laundry with just below the bare minimum of support, the troops tend to pull together even tighter than normal and defend the little patch of ground, actual and abstract, that they are able to occupy and control. Cohesion like that is made possible by the idea that it's far worse to break faith with your fellow fighting men than to be wounded or killed in combat. Abandoning your brother's body, alive or dead, to the depredations of khat chewing, baby killing, genocidal fourth world savages is viewed as a serious breach of that faith. When Lance Corporal Jones sees the body of Warrant Officer Brown being beaten and jumped up and down on and dragged through the streets being spat upon, it could tend to detract from his stouthearted resolve that his is a fight worth fighting. On the converse, it could also cause him to decide that all of them (Skinnies, Arabs, Muslims, third world animist babyrapers, etc.) need to die, and that it's his personal mission to get as much payback for Warrant Officer Brown as possible, even above and beyond the laws of land warfare. That isn't the optimal solution either, as I'm sure you'll agree. Honoring the fallen fellow warrior is a long tradition that goes back to antiquity. We're a (fairly) civilized people, and I don't see us abandoning it anytime soon. As the Spartans said, "With my shield or on it." |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:09:22 AM EDT
[#38]
Yeah, how many times do rescue worker risk their lives to get dead bodies, body parts back?? What do yuo think most of the WTC excavation was about??
It is about a "deal" the fallen made with "the military". He would do task that require him to put himself at risk at the direction of superiors. But if he is wounded they are responsible for caring for his wounds. If he gets killed, his body will be reocovered and given a proper burial. So that it isn't abused, and his parents have closure. It really isn't very much to ask. The risk that occurs to others is not something to be taken lightly either. But then again how many things does the military require its memebers to do that risk thier lives for no real objective? If the Rangers can be ordered to risk their lives to arrest some 3rd world piss merchant. Nothing should stop them from recovering their wounded, or killed BECAUSE THEY WANT TO. The other problem is the chain of command may be to ready to write people of as dead, even whrn they aren't. No one will fight very hard if they are concerned about being left behind. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:16:48 AM EDT
[#39]
Furthermore, speaking as someone who spent some time on a military funeral detail, I can tell you that the civilian families of military men were deeply thankful for the small measure of respect that we were able to show their fallen family members. The military as an institution, represented by the fallen soldier's squadmates, won't stand by and abandon the bodies of the fallen, and with that the faith of the families back home.
Just as some geek comm tech Sergeant in charge of the funeral details, I got hugged and thanked and cried on again and again by the families of men I never knew in life. Imagine then the gratitude of the families toward men who literally risked everything to keep faith with the families back home glued to CNN. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:20:31 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: I'm going to try to be dispassionate and matter of fact about this. It's all a matter of perspective, I guess. We live in the modern, technologically refined world. The folks among whom our fighting men are often sent do not. We (in general) have some respect for first world societal norms like respect for the body of a fallen comrade. In America, abuse of a corpse is actually a crime. When our fighting men are sent to a fourth world shithole like the Mog to do Kofi's (or Boutros') dirty laundry with just below the bare minimum of support, the troops tend to pull together even tighter than normal and defend the little patch of ground, actual and abstract, that they are able to occupy and control. Cohesion like that is made possible by the idea that it's far worse to break faith with your fellow fighting men than to be wounded or killed in combat. Abandoning your brother's body, alive or dead, to the depredations of khat chewing, baby killing, genocidal fourth world savages is viewed as a serious breach of that faith. When Lance Corporal Jones sees the body of Warrant Officer Brown being beaten and jumped up and down on and dragged through the streets being spat upon, it could tend to detract from his stouthearted resolve that his is a fight worth fighting. On the converse, it could also cause him to decide that all of them (Skinnies, Arabs, Muslims, third world animist babyrapers, etc.) need to die, and that it's his personal mission to get as much payback for Warrant Officer Brown as possible, even above and beyond the laws of land warfare. That isn't the optimal solution either, as I'm sure you'll agree. Honoring the fallen fellow warrior is a long tradition that goes back to antiquity. We're a (fairly) civilized people, and I don't see us abandoning it anytime soon. As the Spartans said, "With my shield or on it." |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:27:41 AM EDT
[#41]
JH22: Amen, Brother.
Bountyhunter: Partner, you stood up, held up your hand, and said you would support and defend the Constitution. I commend you for that. I am not demeaning your military service, or your feeling for this country. You are better than at least 75% of the people within our borders. I am also trying to cope right now with being told that a friend of mine, who my girlfriend and I are taking care of, has an inoperable tumor on her liver. If you believe that I may be taking this out on you, I ask your forgiveness. That being said, I truly believe that the worst thing you can do is to abandon someone who would not leave you. Dead OR alive. You keep the faith. You do NOT betray a trust. I do NOT apologize if THAT offends you. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:36:23 AM EDT
[#42]
"This story shall the good man teach his son,
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by, From this day to the ending of the world, But we in it shall be remembered; [b]We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother;[/b] be he ne'er so vile, This day shall gentle his condition: And gentlemen in England now a-bed Shall think themselves accursed they were not here, And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks That fought with us upon St. Crispin's Day." --Henry V, William Shakespeare |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:38:09 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: If I want pimple cream info I'll ask you, if I want combat info I will ask a person in the military or former military.Hope this clears it up. Wrong on account #1...nice try buddy. This has nothing to do with military advice. Again, I will say it....it is about Honor and Brotherhood. Again, I will say that even I understand that. I will add that someone who isn't willing to go after a team members body probably isn't to willing to go into the fight to begin with. Sgt(wayolderthanyouthink)ar15 |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:46:17 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: JH22: Amen, Brother. Bountyhunter: Partner, you stood up, held up your hand, and said you would support and defend the Constitution. I commend you for that. I am not demeaning your military service, or your feeling for this country. You are better than at least 75% of the people within our borders. I am also trying to cope right now with being told that a friend of mine, who my girlfriend and I are taking care of, has an inoperable tumor on her liver. If you believe that I may be taking this out on you, I ask your forgiveness. That being said, I truly believe that the worst thing you can do is to abandon someone who would not leave you. Dead OR alive. You keep the faith. You do NOT betray a trust. I do NOT apologize if THAT offends you. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:50:29 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Quoted: If I want pimple cream info I'll ask you, if I want combat info I will ask a person in the military or former military.Hope this clears it up. Wrong on account #1...nice try buddy. This has nothing to do with military advice. Again, I will say it....it is about Honor and Brotherhood. Again, I will say that even I understand that. I will add that someone who isn't willing to go after a team members body probably isn't to willing to go into the fight to begin with. Sgt(wayolderthanyouthink)ar15 |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 8:57:35 AM EDT
[#46]
I didn't insinute I was a kid and I didn't bait you. You made the statement that [b]"armchair warriors are a pain in the ass"[/b].
I disagree, evryone has a right to an opinion on this. And if you have been around this board long enough you would know exactly what I am (which really ain't much I will add). But it pains me to see that there are Americans that don't believe in Honor anymore...just another example of what the hell is wrong with this country IMHO. Look, I don't want to make an enemy outa you, we will agree to disagree....but I am still very saddened by your belief. Sgtar15 |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 9:21:32 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: 3 words: LtCdr Scott Speicher. I bet he wishes that the USN cared as much about it's fallen as the USMC or Rangers. Since he only got left behind in Iraq for the past 11 years. Fair enough, let me add 5,724 more words. That would be the first name, last name, and rank of the 1,908 still MIA from Vietnam for far longer than 11 years. I'm sure none of those are marines or rangers though, are they? Of course not, because their services [b]care[/b] and so they wouldn't be left behind. Also, FYI, the person who scuttled the idea of a covert mission to examine the wreckage and determine if he may have survived the crash was [b]Army[/b] General John Shalikashvili. |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 9:27:26 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: I didn't insinute I was a kid and I didn't bait you. You made the statement that [b]"armchair warriors are a pain in the ass"[/b]. I disagree, evryone has a right to an opinion on this. And if you have been around this board long enough you would know exactly what I am (which really ain't much I will add). But it pains me to see that there are Americans that don't believe in Honor anymore...just another example of what the hell is wrong with this country IMHO. Look, I don't want to make an enemy outa you, we will agree to disagree....but I am still very saddened by your belief. Sgtar15 |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 9:32:41 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: hey bounty? were in the military, and i dont mean the Air force. it lifts an emotional burden off of you to know that no matter what happens your buddies will take care of you. its worth it! |
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Posted: 7/28/2002 9:33:29 AM EDT
[#50]
Well he is ARMY not RANGER.
There were MIA's at Pearl Harbor. A Japanese bomb hit a mess hall. Not all the dead are recoverable. If a jet fighter augers in and a wingman has a clear view and no 'chute is seen. They would probably be classified as missing, becuase no body was recovered, but in reality..... The problem with Speicher, he probably ejected, ALIVE, and was seperated from his emergency radio. Since no radio signal was heard, no attempt to rescue him was launched. Now a lot of people should have a hard time sleeping knowing that Speicher was left behind. He was supposed to have been last seen, in captivity in 2001, according to defectors. That is just the problem tho'. When you decide not to try to recover bodies, how many wounded do you leave behind? Or merely seperated? The US should take Saddam out just over Speicher. This is not something that should have ever been subject to negotiation. He was basically kidnapped when he didn't get released after the war. We should get a warrant and search the whole place (Iraq)............ |
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