[size=4]Berlin police: Jews shouldn't wear identifiably Jewish garments[/size=4]

By Ha'aretz Service

The Berlin police has advised Jews in the city not to wear any garments that identify them as Jews for fear this may expose them to attacks by Arab youths, Army Radio reported Tuesday. Police specifically advised against the wearing of skullcaps and the Star of David.

The warning comes in the wake of a attacks on Jews and Jewish sites in Germany in recent weeks, and the rising wave of anti-Semitic attacks in Europe in recent months, against the backdrop of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"This is a blow to freedom of religion, but the police cannot protect every single Jew," Army Radio quoted Berlin police spokesman Lars Zunman as saying.

The head of Habad in Berlin, Rabbi Yehuda Teichler, said he was "shocked" by the police recommendation, but that he did not plan to heed it and to hide the fact that he was Jewish.

The director of the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial Museum, Avner Shalev, described the recommendation as offensive, and said it indicated a lack of will on the part of the Berlin police to confront anti-Semitism.

See article at:[url]http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=154995&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0[/url]

Talk about a 180! It was little more than 60 years ago that the Berlin Police would have insisted on Jews 'dressing like Jews.'

Eric The(Naive)Hun[>]:)]

You know, Eric, for a quarter century, I  respected every christian man and woman for their belief in God; in fact, I even envied them a bit, for being able to base their lives on something as strong and solid as christianity. "They believe in God? Why, good for them! Family values, tradition and a nice yellow brick road to walk on through life." I sometimes wished I was less cynical and more faithful. I was always a bit appalled when the media pictured people of faith as sort of caricatures, like Rev. Lovejoy and Ned Flanders (The Simpsons), or when somebody posted an article full of contempt for christianity. My reaction always used to be something like "Hey! I might not be religious myself, but that's the background I grew up in, so leave it the fsck alone, stupid commie!" On the same note, I never understood why atheists made such a big deal out of their [i]Weltanschauung[/i]. They always sounded like homos to me, carrying their sole issue around on a silvertray and shoving it down everyones throats: so you don't believe in god, big fscking deal, neither do I, what else is there in your life? So, in short, [i]Suum Cuique[/i], I leave them alone, and they won't bother me (with the exception of jehova's witnesses, who need bothering, [i]quid pro quo[/i]).

All of this, however, changed, when I noticed that most of these media-portayed characters are no caricatures at all, but pretty accurate descriptions of a certain kind of christian zealots, of which you, Eric, seem to be a prime example. Instead of teaching about Love Thy Neighbour and Thou Shallst Not Grab Your Neighbours Land And Stuff, all I hear from you is "Jews, Israel, Israel, Jews", and how they can do no wrong, and how God and all the angels sing and dance when a jew as much as farts. How can you possibly assume that christianity is centered around that? The way I read it in the bible, and how every christian person I met told me, christianity is based on the fact that Jesus came to this world as saviour, and told the jews, quit it already, be nice for a change, stow it with the "and thou shallst grab the land of Canaan and kill everybody there", no more of this "eye for an eye", or I'll tell Dad, and he'll smite you. Love, peace, forgiveness.

Now I have no idea what off-spin whacko, allegedly christian sect you belong to, but embracing christianity as a bloody tool of the OT is not only short sighted, but utterly opposite JC's own and teachings, it merely makes your particular cult "judaism lite"

Fanatics like you turn normal people into atheists, and atheists into anti-christian propagandists, as all they see is the hate and destruction wrought by so-called "peaceful religions". Even good works become propaganda, when accompanied by shrill harping on "our way, or no way", especially when it's such a twisted way.

I'm not quite sure why this article is receiving attention.

The Berlin police can not protect everyone all the time. We say that about our police forces here. They recommend that if you wear skullcaps and a Star of David you might be attacked.

The police are NOT forcing Jewish people to take off skullcaps and Stars of David. They just mention that wearing such items might invite attack by anti-Semites.

Your post seems inflammatory.

Av.

I think Eric is just pointing out the irony.

Once they forced them to wear the Star of David.
Now they "recommend" agaist it.

The artical is differnet now:


[b]Berlin police: we did not advise Jews not to wear Jewish attire [/b]

By Ha'aretz Service

Berlin police officials denied a report on Army Radio Tuesday that it had issued recommendations to the city's Jewish community not to wear distinctive Jewish garments for fear they may be the targets of attacks by Muslim youths. According to the report, police specifically advised against the wearing of skullcaps and the Star of David.

Despite the denial, Army Radio's Igal Avidan insisted his report was accurate and that it was based on remarks made by the Berlin police spokesman, Lars Sunman, who was reported saying that the recommendation was "a blow to freedom of religion, but the police cannot protect every single Jew."

The warning comes in the wake of attacks on Jews and Jewish sites in Germany in recent weeks, and the rising wave of anti-Semitic attacks in Europe in recent months, against the backdrop of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The head of Chabad in Berlin, Rabbi Yehuda Teichler, said he was "shocked" by the police recommendation, but that he did not plan to heed it and to hide the fact that he was Jewish.

The director of the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial Museum, Avner Shalev, described the recommendation as offensive, and said it indicated a lack of will on the part of the Berlin police to confront anti-Semitism.




Av.

Avalon - It [u]should[/u] be inflamatory!

Imagine if the Berlin Police had said to its gay community - if you want to stop getting the crap beat outta you, stop dressing like gay people dress.

The whole world would simply be deluged with all of the articles, editorials, commentaries, demonstrations, riots, that would result.

And now for you, [b]Kar98[/b], I seem to remember a certain time that you posted pics of the alleged 'assassination' of a certain terrorist bomber at the hands of the Israeli Border Police.

You neglected to include in that photo lineup a particular final photograph which, when viewed by any reasonable, rational person, would have led to the conclusion that this man was righteously killed for refusing to let go of the triggering device on his explosive belt.

I didn't say too much about it at the time, but if that is your definition of what is right in this world, your personal [i][b]Weltanschauung[/b][/i] in this world, well, I wonder just who is fanatical around here.

My great, great, grandparents were right off the boat from Germany in 1832 in New Orleans. Good German Catholics. Not Jews, not gypsies, not socialists, not communists, not anything other than Good German Catholics.

And if they were anything like my great grandmother told me they were, and she knew them well, I can assure you that everything that was done between 1933 and 1945 in their former homeland would have grievously disappointed them. During World War II, even in New Orleans, their family felt the shame of their connection to Germany.

And that is the sin that every German should meditate upon daily.

But do not worry, the Bible is clear to say that the sins of the father are no longer visited upon the children, but each will be held accountable for their own sins.

So there is hope for every German, and non-German alike.

Eric The([i][b]AllesKlar?[/b][/i])Hun[>]:)]

I don't see a problem with either advisory. "We can't be everywhere, and there is a group of people who have shown a propensity for violence toward those of your group. Be advised."


Everyone of German extraction, or just German citizens?


So "original sin" no longer applies?

Eric,
All this time I thought you were a real Hun.


Why don’t the Jews just get Concealed handgun licenses?

Kar98,

I know Eric.  I have met him and dined with him.  He has been to my home many times and I count him among my dearest friends.  

I would recommend you NOT judge a person by the words you read on a website.  



Much the same as a man might be a fan of the Dallas Cowboys and support them through a losing season, we each have a right to pick a side in a fight and to defend it.



This is much the same as I understood the problem.  Jesus came here, the Jews refused to accept him, and they have been a problem since that time and before.  However, like all parts of the Bible it leaves itself open for interpretation.

For 2000 years+ nobody seems to be able to get along with the Jews.  Kinda makes me go ...hhhmmmm?



Wait, if I defend the Dallas Cowboys, does that make me a member of the team?  Do I get to wear the jersey and slap guys on the butt? No.

Supporting Israel does NOT make one a Jew.  



Ok, you got me there. [b] Eric is a fanatic.[/b]  However, the same fervor that makes him so vocal in his views, makes him fiercley loyal and helpful to his friends.  the same reasons you find him hard to bear, are exactly the reasons I find him endearing.

Eric approaches everything with both guns drawn.  He is fierce, determined, intelligent and persistent.  I am glad he is on my side.

TheRedGoat

[url]http://www.duke.org/awakening/chapter16_02.html[/url]
Here's a guy echoing a familiar theme

Here is the new dress code...wear this and do what you like...kill anyone anywhere with airplanes or bombs and they make excuses for you...
[image]http://www.mdcplus.com/web/pokeyjoe/images/dancingpali.gif[/image]

Post from Jarhead_22 -

Nope. Never did. But it was a nice human touch to add to the Good News of the Gospel.

Hmmm, as if the Gospel needed adding to.

All children go to Heaven. Without exception.

It's their parents who need to worry!

German citizenship meant nothing to the Nazis when they began their destruction of the Jews who had lived among them for centuries.

Even distinctive service in the Great War (1914-1918) was not considered sufficient for one to retain their German citizenship in the face of Nazis prosecution and persecution.

So, I mean 'German extraction.'

I cannot sit and listen quitely to one of my favorite Wagnerian operas without thinking of the perfidious use that Wagner's music, his family, and the Bayreuth Festpielhaus, were put to by the Nazis.

So I meditate upon these sins daily, as well.

Eric The(German)Hun[>]:)]

Shucks, [b]TheRedGoat[/b], I love you too, Man!

And I mean that in the most sincere, manly, and socially acceptable manner.[:D]

Eric The(Man'sMan)Hun[>]:)]

So somebody speaks the truth and the P.C. people are up in arms.

"We the police can not be everywhere. There are SOBs who beat up people who look Jewish. We recommend that you do not wear anything that might identify you as Jewish." Makes sense to me. They are not being told that they can not wear the items in question.



Really? Why should we meditate on the wrongs of a few? Lumping ALL of Germany into the Nazi party is a mistake. Yes, there were evil people in power and in the ranks of the military. Yes, there were citizens who turned in their fellow neibors because they might be Jewish or gay. But there were also some Germans who risked their lives to help others.

Perhaps we should meditate on the good and courage that some people can find in horrible times, rather than the evils that were committed.

Av.

[i][b]'All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.'[/b][/i] - Edmund Burke

So, [b]Avalon[/b], where were the good men in Germany, between the wars, who had read [b]Mein Kampf[/b] and knew what that little Austrian corporal was up to, but sat back and did nothing?

They might not have dropped pellets, or loaded the railroad cars, or gassed the children, or any of the other things that were done in [u]their[/u] name, but they sowed the wind, and reaped the whirlwind.

And when that cold Red wind blew in from the East, it was a very cruel time to be a German indeed!

Eric The(Literary)Hun[>]:)]

The Germans are not the only people who take the blame here. Where were the Americans at the time? The English? They were all fooled. Do you honestly think that ANYONE might have seen the horrors of what was to come?

It's easy to read Mein Kampf now and say "How could they miss that?"

Av.

Any racial guilt I might have borne for the actions of the Reich was wiped out fifty years ago by my grandfathers going over there and risking their lives to hammer the dogshit out of anything within sight bearing a swastika or Luftwaffe insignia.

My "corruption of blood" has been handled.

Post from Avalon -

Why? They were the only ones to have voted the little paperhanger into office. They gave up their nation to the little bastard.

If at any time, someone of stature had come out and called him the menace to civilization that he truly was, maybe, just maybe, this all could have been avoided.

Quitely minding their own business, as they should have been!

So you advocate one sovereign going into the sovereign territory of another nation just on the premise that the leader that was just elected intends to do us harm?

As much as I despised Bill Clinton and his ilk, I would not have approved an invasion from Canada or Mexico to depose him!

Churchill and others didn't miss anything, but, again, they were not Germans, so they could not interfere with elections in another sovereign nation.

Eric The(Reasonable)Hun[>]:)]

Post from Jarhead_22 -

Amen, Brother, Hallelujah! You are preaching, Son!

My Uncle on my Mother's side was sent to the South Pacific - I suppose his name was 'too' German to be sent to Europe.

Indeed, it has!

Eric The(Celebratory)Hun[>]:)]

[url]http://www.amprom.org/welcome.htm[/url]
Gman this sounds pretty close to what you expound?...Who are the "real" jews?...
Do a google search and find out what it is you are really saying....not too pretty..imo
Even Luther went down this road for a while..but the truth was his heart was hardened for a time..But Hitler took this idea and the result was the camps.
Not saying this is what you are saying but it sure has a familiar ring...

Check the history books. Hitler only won seats in the Parliament elections in 1930. He ran against Hindenburg for President TWICE. The first election was 49% to Hindenburg, 30% to Hitler. Since neither had majority, a run-off was scheduled. Hindenburg got 53% of the votes. Hitler was NEVER voted President of Germany.

After the elections, the German government tried very hard to split up the Nazi party. In 1932 Hitler was running around telling people he was going to shoot himself.

The Nazi party almost self destructed at that time also. Eva Braun shot herself in the neck. Goebbels and a number of Nazis went along with the Communists in a strike of transport workers in Berlin, alienating a lot of middle class voters. Gregor Strasser, a founding member and one of the most influential leaders, resigned from the Nazi party.

Everyone thought that the Nazi party was finished. The ONLY reason that Hitler got to where he did was because he tricked Hindenburg into believing that Kurt von Schleicher, an Army officer, was coming to arrest Hindenburg and stage a military takeover of the government. Hitler promised Hindenburg that if he was appointed Chancellor, nothing bad would come of Germany.

It's amazing how many times the Nazi party almost collapsed in on itself. People were well aware that Hitler was a menance. They tried time and time again to remove him from power.

Av.

Edited fer grammar.

My German grandfather served in the Pacific. He fought to join the Navy since he had a work deferment and was not drafted. If he wanted to, he could have spent the whole war at home. He knew what America stood for, and he wanted to defend his freedoms.

Av.

Morris Cohen
Harry Gold
David Greenglass
Max Elitcher
Morton Sobell
Harold Glasser
George Silverman

Do any of these names sound familiar? They should. In addition to Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, and gentiles Klaus Fuchs and Alger Hiss, they were part of the KGB controlled apparatus that looted the Manhattan project of its secrets and gave the Soviet Union everything they needed to build nuclear weapons.

Do American Jews bear some racial guilt for this infamy?

I was taught cover and concealment.  

Eddie

I'd say no.  Not if they weren't directly involved. They were acting secretly, unbeknownst to their fellow Jews (unless one believes that ALL Jews were part of an International Jewish Conspiracy).

It's not the same.

People are responsible for the actions of their Nation.
Whether they like it or not.
Being in denial, or wearing blinders is no excuse.

That's one way to look at it.

Here's my opinion:

Let all the Jews, and the rest of the law-abiding citizens, legally buy and carry thier own guns, and then, the police warning is fine. Police don't protect people, they keep the peace. It when they remove peoples ability to protect themselve that it becomes a problem. Then I'd sure as hell expect the cops to protect EVERY SIGNLE PERSON.

-Justin

Good Point!!!  I think that's the real issue in this story.  

What about Germans like Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Admiral Canaris?  Sometimes one person of stature or a small handful is unfortunately not enough.

Post from Avalon01 -

I did. Here is what I found:

[b]1932 July 31[/b] The National Socialists win [b]230[/b] seats in Reichstag elections. The Socialists win 133, the Catholic Center 97, and the Communists, 89. The total vote for the National Socialists is 13,745,000 (37%).

1932 August 13 Hindenburg rejects Hitler's demand to be appointed Chancellor.

1932 August 13 Formal talks begin between Hitler, Bruning and the Catholic Center Party. The meetings drag on for weeks.

1932 August 30 Hermann Goering, with backing from the Catholic Center Party, becomes President of the Reichstag.

1932 September The Catholic Center Party deputies in the Reichstag vote for a Communist sponsored no-confidence motion against Papen's government.

1932 September 12 President Hindenburg again dissolves the Reichstag.

1932 November 6 New elections in Germany fail to break a parliamentary deadlock. The National Socialists lose [b]34[/b] seats.

1932 November 17 Franz von Papen and his Cabinet are forced to resign.

1932 November Thirty-nine prominent German industrialists and businessmen petition Hindenburg to appoint Hitler as his new Chancellor. Hindenburg refuses.

1932 December 3 General von Schleicher is appointed Chancellor of Germany.

1932 December 8 Gregor Strasser resigns from his Nazi party offices.

1933 January 28 General von Schleicher resigns as Chancellor.

1933 January 30 Adolf Hitler is appointed Chancellor by President Hindenberg. Franz von Papen becomes Vice-Chancellor. Only three of the eleven posts in the cabinet are held by National Socialists.

1933 January 30 Juedische Jugendhilfe (Jewish Youth Help), the agency overseeing Youth Aliya (immigration to Palestine), is founded.

1933 Early in 1933, Hitler tells Hermann Rauschning that "One is either a German or a Christian. You cannot be both." (Rauschning)

1933 February 1 Hitler makes his first radio address to the German people after becoming Chancellor. Hitler declares that the members of the new government "would preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built up. They regard Christianity as the foundation of our national morality and the family as the basis of our national life." (Lewy)

1933 February 1 Hitler obtains a decree from Hindenburg ordering dissolution of the Reichstag. New elections are called for March 5, 1933.

- continued -

1933 February 2 Hitler bans all political demonstrations except those of the National Socialists.

1933 February 4 Hitler announces a new rule "for the protection of the German people" which allows the Nazis to forbid meetings of other political groups.

1933 February 27 A huge fire destroys the Reichstag, the seat of German government. Marinus van der Lubbe, a Dutch Communist, is arrested after he is found bare to the waist inside the Reichstag. During interrogation, the young radical confesses that he set the fire "As a protest," but denies any connection with the Communist Party and swears he alone had set the fires inside the Reichstag. Rudolf Diels, chief of the Prussian political police, tells Hitler that van der Lubbe's confession rings true, but Hitler refuses to believe the arsonist had acted alone and blames the Communist movement as a whole for the troubles that continue to plague Germany. Hitler and Goebbels work from midnight to dawn at the "Völkischer Beobachter"offices preparing the next day's edition, which accuses the Reds of a plot to seize power and setting fire to the Reichstag.

1933 February 28 Hindenburg signs the "Decree for the Protection of the People and the State," which has been quickly drafted by Hitler and his aides. This emergency decree suspends the civil liberties granted by the Weimar Constitution. Free speech, free press, sanctity of the home, security of mail and telephone, freedom to assemble or form organizations and the inviolability of private property are all abolished. It also allows the Nazis to put their political opponents in prison and establish concentration camps.

1933 February 28 The SA and SS quickly begin rounding up German Communists.

1933 March 1 Nazi Germany promulgates decrees covering "Provocation to Armed Conflict" and "Provocation to a General Strike."

1933 March 3 Hitler tells a large audience in Frankfurt that he "will not be crippled by any bureaucracy. I won't have to worry about justice, my mission is only to destroy and exterminate."

1933 March 5 The NSDAP receives [b]44%[/b] of the vote (288 seats) in the Reichstag elections. Although the Nazis had a sizable plurality over any other party, they still lacked an absolute majority. The Nazi-Nationalist coalition is required to give them a narrow majority of 52 %. Goebbels is in charge of the Nazi campaign during the elections.

- continued -

1933 March 6 An emergency decree proclaimed by the Nazis, For the Protection of the German People, restricts the opposition press and information services. (Edelheit)

1933 March 13 Hitler appoints Joseph Goebbels Reich Minister of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda. He quickly begins "coordinating" all aspects of cultural life, the press and communications under the control of the Nazi Party. Day after day, Goebbels drills home the messages of blood, race, and glory, all cleverly designed to appeal to the broadest segment of the German masses. Antisemitism was one of his highest priorities and most useful tools.

[b]1933 March 19 The Jewish War Veterans of America initiates an anti-Nazi boycott.[/b]

1933 March 20 The Reichstag gives Hitler full leadership powers.

1933 March 23 In the evening session of the Reichstag, Monsignor Kaas announces that the Catholic Center Party, despite some certain misgivings, will vote for the Enabling Act.

1933 March 23 With Catholic Center Party support, the Enabling Act is passed by the Reichstag, transferring the power of legislation from the Reichstag to the cabinet. The Enabling Act gives Hitler the power to pass his own laws, independent of the President or anyone else; making Hitler more powerful than any Kaiser in German History.

[b]1933 March 28 A large protest rally is held in Tel Aviv against the persecution of German Jews by the Nazis.[/b]

1933 May 28 Nazis in Danzig win a majority (50.3%) in Volkstag (Senate) elections.

1933 May 30 The Council of the League of Nations censures Germany for its anti-Jewish actions in Upper Silesia.

1933 July 1 A conference of German housewives in Berlin excludes all Jewish women from its membership.

1933 July 5 The Catholic Center Party publishes its decree of dissolution. Only the Nazis remain as an active political party in the Reichstag.

1933 July 5 Cardinal Faulhaber complains to the Bavarian Council of Ministers that almost one hundred priests had been arrested in the last few weeks. (Lewy)

1933 July 20 More than 30,000 men, women and children jam the streets of London protesting Nazi persecution of German Jews. That same day, the Academic Assistance Council is organized to aid expelled German Jewish scholars.

- continued -

1933 August 19 Houghton Mifflin Company of Boston publishes Hitler's Mein Kampf in English translation.

1933 October 28 The Nazis boast that their antisemitic propaganda has inspired Arab riots in Palestine.

[b]1933 November 12 Hitler receives 92% of the vote in new German elections.[/b]

1933 November 24 A law for the protection of animals is passed by the German government. This law explicitly states that it is designed to prevent cruelty and indifference of man towards animals and to awaken and develop sympathy and understanding for animals as one of the highest moral values of a people. The soul of the German people should abhor the principle of mere utility without consideration of the moral aspects. The law further states that all operations or treatments which are associated with pain or injury, especially experiments involving the use of cold, heat, or infection, are prohibited, and can be permitted only under special exceptional circumstances. Special written authorization by the head of the department is necessary in every case, and experimenters are prohibited from performing experiments according to their own free judgment. Experiments for the purpose of teaching must be reduced to a minimum. Medico-legal tests, vaccinations, withdrawal of blood for diagnostic purposes, and trial of vaccines prepared according to well-established scientific principles are permitted, but the animals have to be killed immediately and painlessly after such experiments. Individual physicians are not permitted to use dogs to increase their surgical skill by such practices. National Socialism, the law says, regards it as a sacred duty of German science to keep the number of painful animal experiments to a minimum.

[b]1934 March 7 The Spanish government announces it will grant automatic citizenship to all Sephardic Jews returning to Spain.[/b]

1934 April 27 The Swiss government informs Germany that a mutual arrangement between the two countries must take place without prejudice on racial origins of Swiss citizens. (Edelheit)

1934 July 2 President Hindenburg sends Hitler a telegram thanking him for savings the German people from a catastrophe.

1934 August 7 Five Americans are beaten in Nuremberg for refusing to give the Nazi salute.

- continued -

[b]1934 August 19 A German plebiscite approves (88%) Hitler's assumption of full power and his dual role as chancellor and Fuehrer.[/b]

[b]1934 October 30 The American Legion adopts a resolution condemning Nazism.[/b]

1935 October 1 Goebbel's Propaganda Ministry explains that Nazism is anti-Jewish rather than antisemitic -- to avoid offending their Arab allies.

1935 November 20 The Church of England unanimously condemns Nazi persecution of Jews in Germany.

[b]1936 March 29 Hitler receives 99% of the votes in a referendum, receiving 44.5 million votes out of 45.5 million registered voters.[/b] [b]NOTE: This should be all you meed, Av![/b]

1937 March 14 A papal encyclical, Mit Brennender Sorge (With Burning Sorrow) is published, dealing with the condition of the Catholic Church in Germany and condemning Nazi racism.

1937 March 21 Mit brennender Sorge, is read from the pulpits of all Catholic Churches in Germany on Palm Sunday. It has been smuggled into Germany, secretly printed and distributed by messenger throughout the nation. "With deep anxiety and with ever-growing dismay" Pius XI says he has watched the tribulations of the Catholic Church in Germany. The Concordat of 1933 is now being openly violated, and the conscience of the faithful oppressed as never before. True belief in God, the Pope declares, is irreconcilable with the deification of earthly values such as race, people or the state. Important as these are in the natural order, they can never be the ultimate norm of all things. Belief in a national God or a national religion, similarly is a grave error. The God of Christianity cannot be imprisoned "within the frontiers of a single people, within the pedigree of one single race." (Lewy)

So, Hitler receives 99% of the German vote!

Eric The(SaysItAll!)Hun[>]:)]

PS - I rest my case. You may call your first rebuttal witness!

You really ARE stupid, and that's not supposed to be a personal attack, merely an observation.

Look up the definition of "free elections". If you really claim because the East German commie party, for instance, usually got results of 99% for almost 40 years, that every East German was a commie, you're insulting everyone's intelligence.

Once again... check your history books.

The Nazi party was the only major party a German citizen could vote for by 1933. Once Hitler tricked Hindenburg into naming him Chancellor of Germany, almost all other political parties were squashed.

You even have it in your timeline:
[b]
1933 February 2 Hitler bans all political demonstrations except those of the National Socialists.

1933 February 4 Hitler announces a new rule "for the protection of the German people" which allows the Nazis to forbid meetings of other political groups.
[/b]

When you can only vote for one party, why do you think they get 99% of the vote?

They never received a majority of the votes UNTIL Hitler outlawed all other political parties.

Av.

Edit: If you pulled all that out of your head I'm impressed. I have a Masters in the political history of Nazi Germany, and I couldn't do that.

The people's representatives in the Catholic Center Party, the National Party, and others had conceded these powers to Hitler.

The people could have stayed home in protest, yet almost 95% of those eligible to vote, showed up and confirmed by their votes what Hitler had done to their country.

I threw in those other tidbits to let you know that the evils of Nazism were apparent for one and all.

[b]What the German People did, they did in the light of day![/b]

Even though it was a very dark day in their history!

Eric The(Shamed)Hun[>]:)]

You really _are_ , well, maybe stupid is the wrong word, but how about simple-minded?

You keep leaving off the WHY...

WHY did the Catholic Center Party, the National Party, and others concede their powers to Hitler?

He promised an end to unemployment and pledged to promote peace with France, Great Britain and the Soviet Union. But in order to do all this Hitler claimed he first needed the Enabling Act. A two-thirds majority was needed, since the law would actually alter the constitution. Hitler needed 31 non-Nazi votes to pass it. He got those votes from the Catholic Center Party after making a false promise to restore some basic rights already taken away by decree.

Av.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought she killed herself the day after Hitler and her were married, along with him at that time. Maybe that was her failed attempt...Or maybe I saw that on the History Channel just a lil' too long ago.

They knew each other long before she killed herself in '45. Hitler and Eva started dating while Hitler was seeing Geli, the daughter of his half-sister. During that time, he started to see 17 year old Eva Braun, who worked in the photography shop run by his personal photographer, Heinrich Hoffmann. That was about 1932, maybe early 1933. She attempted suicide by shooting herself in the neck.

BTW: she never killed Hitler, he killed himself. Eva committed suicide by ingesting poison, Hitler shot himself.

Av.

Post from Avalon1 -

So your theory of modern German History is that the German people were hoodwinked by a common criminal and were misled about what they were allowing themselves and their country to get into?

That's precisely why I put those tidbits in my long post on German History of the period.

I could have put in more, but I just wanted to show you that, when, for example, on July 1, 1933, a conference of German housewives in Berlin excluded all Jewish women from its membership, they did so because they simply wanted all Jewish women excluded.

The Nazi government didn't order them to do it. They just did it!

And why on July 5, 1933, Cardinal Faulhaber complained to the Bavarian Council of Ministers that almost one hundred priests had been arrested in the last few weeks, how did the local German people not know that their priests were being arrested?

The German people were not stupid. The last priests had been arrested in the 30 Years War.
What did they think was happening, or going to happen to those priests?

They didn't care, apparently, at least as a group. Oh, you hear of the occasional hero, the Niemoeller, the Bahnhoeffer, but they are, sadly, few and far between.

"I PRAY FOR THE DEFEAT OF MY COUNTRY. Only in defeat can we atone for the terrible crimes we have committed." These searing words were said by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a prominent Lutheran pastor, who was among the few clergymen in Nazi Germany who dared to raise his voice to oppose Adolf Hitler.

As early as 1933, Bonhoeffer exposed Hitler's political moves to undermine the constitutional rights of the German people, especially the Jews. He also believed that the church had a responsibility to offer unconditional aid to victims of state action, and took an active role in smuggling Jews into Switzerland. He later participated in a plot to kill Hitler. But Bonhoeffer's efforts and voice were stilled when he and his family were murdered by the Nazis in 1945.

Another courageous cleric was Martin Niemoeller. Like most pastors, Niemoeller openly welcomed Hitler during his first year in office, but severed his support when Hitler issued his racial decrees. Joining other disaffected ministers of various Protestant denominations, Niemoeller helped found the Confessing Church in 1934.

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The new Confessing Church took an outspoken stand against the Nazi's assault on human rights and was instrumental in helping Jews find safe havens. Some of the refugees they aided were film producer Max Krakauer and his wife, who were sheltered and moved from one place to another with the help of over 40 persons, most of whom were pastors of the Confessing Church. According to Mordecai Paldiel of Israel's Yad Vashem, "There is no other recorded rescue story in which so many clergy participated in the rescue of two Jews, fugitives of Nazi terror."

In 1936, the leadership of the Confessional Church sent a memorandum to Hitler, saying: [b]"When blood, race, nationality and honor are regarded as eternal values, the First Commandment obliges the Christian to reject this evaluation."[/b] Not too many days later, the leaders of the church were arrested, including Pastor Niemoeller, who was sent to Sachsenhausen and later to Dachau.

More than 800 other pastors and prominent laymen of the Confessional Church were arrested in 1937, and hundreds more were thrown into jail over the next several years.

Other clergy also criticized the Nazi regime from their pulpits and paid the price. In Wuerttemberg, Landbischof Theophil Wurm, who raised his voice to protest the Nazi's attempts to create a "Nordic hybrid religion," was promptly thrown into jail. In Oberleuningen, following the destruction and riots of Kristallnacht in 1938, Pastor von Jan told his congregation: "Much evil has been done, openly and covertly. . . Property has been taken, honor of neighbors sullied, lives taken." Shortly after his sermon, his vicarage was broken into and the pastor arrested. And in Munich, Bishop Hans Meiser shared a similar fate for supporting an anti-Nazi manifesto.

In the weeks and months following Kristallnacht, Prelate Dr. Hermann Maas of Heidelberg and Pastor Heinrich Gruber of Berlin helped hundreds of terrified Jews emigrate to England via Switzerland. To let the Jews know they were welcome, Dr. Maas had a mezuzah affixed to the doorpost of his house. He was also busy at the pulpit, speaking out against Nazi anti-semitism. His underground activity and outspoken stance led to his arrest in 1944 at the age of 67. He survived a stay at a labor camp and returned home after the liberation. Dr. Maas was among the first Protestant clercs in the post-war years to state that Christianity's centuries-long tradition of theological Jew-baiting laid the ground work for Hitler's campaign of hate and terror.

Among the Catholic clergy, Clemens August von Galen, the bishop of Munster, criticized the Nazi euthanasia program, forcing Hitler to cancel it. However, he remained silent on the deportation of Jews. Other Catholic clergymen who took a strong stand against the Nazi's racial decrees were Bernhard Lichtenberg, a priest at the St. Hedwig Cathedral in Berlin, who was arrested for praying for the "poor persecuted Jews." He was shipped to Dachau where he died. Conrad Cardinal Count von Preysing of Berlin, in a pastoral letter, denounced Nazi persecutions in the following words: "Every human has rights that cannot be taken from him by an earthly power."

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But these were lone voices in a land where silent and uncritical obedience to political leaders had become the accepted way of life as most of the churches were caught up in the zealous nationalism sweeping Germany. The Nazi-controlled German Christians Faith Movement dominated mainstream churches by mixing dogma with politics and proclaimed: "In the person of the Fuhrer we behold the One sent from God who places Germany in the presence of the Lord of History."

Early in 1938, Bishop Marahrens of Hanover sent a letter to all pastors in his diocese ordering them to swear personal allegiance to the Fuhrer. In the months that followed, the vast majority of Protestant clergymen took the oath and bound themselves legally and morally to comply with the commands of Adolf Hitler.

William L. Shirer, in his monumental [b]The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich[/b], offers a penetrating analysis of the German psyche and character during those years:

"It would be misleading to give the impression that the persecution of Protestants and Catholics by the Nazi State tore the German people asunder or even greatly aroused the vast majority of them. [b]It did not.[/b] A people who had so lightly given up their political and cultural and economic freedoms were not, except for a relatively few, going to die or even risk imprisonment to preserve freedom of worship."

[b]THESE ARE MY GERMAN HEROES[/b]. THEY DIDN'T FIGHT FOR IRON CROSSES BUT FOR HIS CROSS.

And they put to lie and to everlasting shame the notion that the German People were somehow innocent in their own destruction.

Eric The(How'sThemApples?)Hun[>]:)]

Post from BostonTeaParty -

Sorry, I didn't respond to your earlier, BTP, but as you can see I was out gathering evidence which I used in my prior post.

Yes, Dietrich Bonhoeffer is one of my heroes, and he did what he could.

I'm not quite up on Admiral Canaris, so I'll have to check him out.

Eric The(AMan'sGottaKnowHisLimitations!)Hun[>]:)]

What are you trying to prove, Eric? Is there anything of relevance or revelation hidden in your posts? What's the punchline?

To a point... yes. Look at what was happening at that time: rampant unemployment, inflation was rampant, the Germans felt that they were treated unfairly after WW1. Now here comes a young upstart, promising better times. He promises to build up the economy, tell the Western powers to stick it, and build Germany back up to a nation that Germans could be proud of.

Why wouldn't many of the German people like him? His speeches were elegant, and he has great charisma.

He also had total control over the German press, radio, and film since October 4th 1933, with the passage of the Reich Press Law.



Niemoeller was arrested in 1937. He spent 8 months in prison and was tried in March 1938 in front of a [i]sondergericht[/i], fines 2,000 marks and sentenced to 7 months in prison. Since he had already spent 8 months in prison, he was let go. The Gestapo were the ones who grabbed him and placed him in the Concentration Camps.



Keep going with the quote:
"What really aroused the Germans in the Thirties was the glimmering successes of Hitler in providing jobs, creating prosperity, restoring Germany's military might, and moving from one triumph to another in his foreign policy."

The Germans were sick and tired of being shat on, they were looking forward to being successful again. Hitler used that against them.

Av.

Post from Kar98 -

[i][b]Nichts![/b][/i]

Hidden? No, I'm pretty open about everything I have written.

[img]http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gifs/ww2200.gif[/img]

These Jewish children are on their way to Palestine after having been released from Buchenwald concentration camp. The girl on the left is from Poland, the boy in the center is from Latvia, and the girl on the right is from Hungary.

Considering what these three must have been through, and the horrors their young eyes had seen, the punchline is the fact they are even alive!

Eric The(!)Hun[>]:)]

Post from Avalon -

So they didn't mind the feeble minded being sent off to 'clinics' to be gassed, they didn't mind the loss of any political opposition to the Nazi Party, they didn't feel any sense of shame at taking away the citizenship of Jews who had fought heroically
for the Fatherland in prior wars, no shame at what was happening before their very eyes, no shame at the evil things being done in their name, so long as Herr Hitler kept the economy going and full employment.

And the 'triumphs' of Hitler's success in foreign policy during this period was in deliberately lying and lying and lying again. This constant saber-rattling cost Germany a real war, way before it was prepared for one.

Most Germans I have known, and trust me, I have known a quite a few, tell me that the average German from this period recognizes two separate Hitlers - the pre-war Hitler who could do no wrong, and the war-time Hitler who could still do very little wrong!

But the war-time Hitler is the only one that they will complain about!

Eric The(Yeah,Right!)Hun[>]:)]

RIGHTLY SO THEY SHOULD BE ARESTED FOR DISTINGUISHING THEM SELVES FROM THE REST OF "HUMANITY". AFTER ALL , WE'RE ALL EQUAL.
  BUT IM SURE ITS FOR THIER OWN SAFETY . WOULD'NT WANT SOME POOOOR JEW HURT IN GERMANY , WE ALL KNOW WHAT THAT WOULD DO TO THE WORLD.

Wilhelm Canaris was head of the Abwehr (military intelligence), of which Bonhoeffer became a member.  He was in charge of the plot to kill Hitler, among other things.  Being head of the Abwehr, he obviously couldn't speak out against Hitler and keep his position, so he was complicit in a lot of bad crap, too.  But it seems like he used his power as best he could to help the resistance against Hitler.

Edited to add the link: [url]http://auschwitz.dk/Canaris/id2.htm[/url]