sad day here in so cal

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - sad day here in so cal

Posted: 4/21/2002 12:02:27 AM EDT

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-042102crash.story?coll=la%2Dhome%2Dtodays%2Dtimes

QF-4 phantom bought the farm at airshow...mechanical failure during low level flight. both pilots died :( i almost went to the show, but my fathers comencement was today for his doctorate, so i was about 10 miles from it...i have seen one crash before in 88 a f-18 couldn't power out of a loop and slammed into runway...this totally sucks!!!

Posted: 4/21/2002 12:03:14 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
[url]http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-042102crash.story?coll=la%2Dhome%2Dtodays%2Dtimes[/url]

QF-4 phantom bought the farm at airshow...mechanical failure during low level flight. both pilots died :( i almost went to the show, but my fathers comencement was today for his doctorate, so i was about 10 miles from it...i have seen one crash before in 88 a f-18 couldn't power out of a loop and slammed into runway...this totally sucks!!!

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Posted: 4/21/2002 12:09:29 AM EDT

[#2]

I guess target drones have room for a pilot?

Posted: 4/21/2002 1:10:02 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
I guess target drones have room for a pilot?

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According to CNN, this plane is a full-size F4. So it normally carries a crew of 2.
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/04/20/air.show.crash/index.html[/url]

Posted: 4/21/2002 1:14:59 AM EDT

[#4]

Ahhh, here is the answer to my question:

The QF-4 Phantom II, which can fly both with crew and unmanned, was performing with three other aircraft as part of the show.

Structurally similar to an F-4 fighter jet, the Phantom primarily acts as a target for testing air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles

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In case none of you know why I am asking, the Q prefix is means the airplane is an unmanned drone, and in this case, the older planes get converted into them for use as aerial targets.

Posted: 4/21/2002 5:00:12 AM EDT

[#5]

Q-birds can still be manned. The QU-22 was an info collector Beech in VietNam. A few of my friends had flown them before we met in B-52 school. Although it had a remote autopilot, there was a pilot on board all the times. Probably the most boring flying job ever, according to them.

Posted: 4/21/2002 5:58:32 AM EDT

[#6]

On what was a beautiful sunny beach day, this very tragic event happened. The crash occurred when both the Pt. Mugu and China Lake test pilots (F-4s, F-14s, and F-18s) were starting their show. First a flyby with all aircraft. Next 2 F-14s and 2 F-4s were demostrating a sharp right turn, 1 F-4, and 2 F-14s completed their turns, then the last F-4. It turned right, but aparently only the right afterburner ignited when completing the turn, and then stopped (pilot shutdown?). This caused the plane to angle 50+deg and somewhat linger in the air, and then nose down. Prior to crash, we witnessed an ejection, but no parachute. Then the crash, just surreal.

After 45min, without word as to the fate of pilot or RIO, the show was cancelled. We assumed the worst, since any positive recovery of the crew could have been announced and a blessing.

Here's what Fox11la reported:

VENTURA, Calif. (AP) -- A low-flying F-4 crashed Saturday during
an air show at the Point Mugu Naval Air Weapons station, killing its
two crew members, Navy officials said.

One of the crew members ejected from the jet as it flew less than
200 feet above the ground before crashing. The jet burst into an
enormous ball of flame when it smashed into the ground on the
west side of the base.

The jet and its crew had been taking part in the 38th Point Mugu
Airshow. It was performing with five other military aircraft when it
crashed.

Navy officials identified the crew members as 39-year-old Navy
Cmdr. Michael Norman, the pilot, and 31-year-old Marine Corps
Capt. Andrew Muhs, a radar intercept officer. Their hometowns
were not released.

Videotape of the crash showed the parachute of the crew
member's ejection seat only partially inflate as it followed the
crippled aircraft.

Eyewitness Jim Hardie said the plane was banking right when a
sudden burst of flame came from the engine area.

"We saw a real, quick flash in the middle of the toss of flames,"
Hardie said. The plane was about 150 to 200 feet from the ground
at the time, said Hardie, who was about a quarter-mile from the
crash.

There were no injuries on the ground, said spokesman Vance
Vasquez. He said the plane went down in a remote area of the
base.

The show was halted and the thousands of spectators were told
to leave the base. Vasquez said the show was scheduled to
continue Sunday.

The jet was a QF-4 Phantom II, assigned to the Naval Air
Weapons Test Squadron at Point Mugu. The Q designation means
the plane is used as a target by the Navy, Vasquez said.

Point Mugu is about 50 miles northwest of Los Angeles.

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Posted: 4/21/2002 9:43:21 AM EDT

[#7]

This is sad to hear... my dad used to drive an F4... well.. he was a navigator. In the Air Force, the Navigator can actually fly the plane, but in the Navy, the RIO cannot. It kinda saddened me when the Air Force phased out the F4... one damn capable machine!

My thoughts and prayers are with the crew's family.

Posted: 4/21/2002 10:11:49 AM EDT

[#8]

The F-16 is the replacement for the F-4 II. They're way cheaper to operate.

Posted: 4/21/2002 10:14:21 AM EDT

[#9]

Just thought of something. When I was with F-4s, they had Martin Baker 0 over 150 seats. Whoever got out should have cleared the aircraft.
Did the Navy put different seats in theirs?

Posted: 4/21/2002 10:47:31 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Just thought of something. When I was with F-4s, they had Martin Baker 0 over 150 seats. Whoever got out should have cleared the aircraft.
Did the Navy put different seats in theirs?

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I was under the impression that the Navy and everbody else now used ACES II seats which are 0/0 seats (means you'll be fine if you eject at 0 feet and 0 mph for you non military folks). I can't understand why that guy wasn't okay.

Posted: 4/21/2002 10:53:58 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Just thought of something. When I was with F-4s, they had Martin Baker 0 over 150 seats. Whoever got out should have cleared the aircraft.
Did the Navy put different seats in theirs?

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I was under the impression that the Navy and everbody else now used ACES II seats which are 0/0 seats (means you'll be fine if you eject at 0 feet and 0 mph for you non military folks). I can't understand why that guy wasn't okay.

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I know absolutely nothing about aviation but from what I saw of the film on the news it didn't look good for the guy who ejected.

Really close to the ground, no chute deployment, ejected from the cockpit but followed the plane's trajectory to the deck at a fairly good rate of speed. And it almost looked as if the ejected pilot impacted in the crash zone.

Posted: 4/21/2002 11:10:29 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

I know absolutely nothing about aviation but from what I saw of the film on the news it didn't look good for the guy who ejected.

Really close to the ground, no chute deployment, ejected from the cockpit but followed the plane's trajectory to the deck at a fairly good rate of speed.

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Shouldn't matter. A 0/0 seat should've done fine.

Posted: 4/21/2002 11:13:47 AM EDT

[#13]

Well that low to the ground if he Ejected in a turn the shoot may not have opened. Even the ACES II needs to push you up a certain number of feet before the shoot will open properly. The 0/0 just means it can do it from 0 airspeed and 0 altitude. Who knows, Sometimes YOU JUST BUY THE FARM, and their ain't a damn thing you can do about it.

Ben

Posted: 4/21/2002 12:32:38 PM EDT

[#14]

unfortunatly i think he basically ejected into the ground...aka he was rolled near/past 90...so no ejection seat would work then, unless you were a ways above the ground...they started 150-200ft off ground so the height wasn't there.

Posted: 4/22/2002 5:27:16 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
unfortunatly i think he basically ejected into the ground...aka he was rolled near/past 90...so no ejection seat would work then, unless you were a ways above the ground...they started 150-200ft off ground so the height wasn't there.

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Actually, I think the ejection and opening went fine, but the guy was a few seconds late and landed in the fire ball of the plane.

Every low level event like this that I have seen had the pilot landing very near the fire from the destroyed AC.

This guy was just a hair too late.