In hindsight I think they brought the entire situation on themselves...

1. Holding a institution of learning hostage for the purpose of support for a enemy of the United States, Vietnam. Contrary to popular misconception MOST protestors were not just anti War but Anti US and Pro North Vietnam/Communism.

2. These are the same people who dramatically altered the country for the worst and forced the social "reforms" by means of blackmail. The Johnson Administration was destroyed by them despite catering to almost every demand.

3. The antiwar hippies grew into todays liberals and continue to destroy the country from within. They spit on soldiers while their own contribution to the country was funding the drug trade and helping establish it.

They should have killed or imprisioned ALL of them. For actual facts of Kent State and the follow up actions by hippies/protestors including vandalism of the campus...

FBI Freedom of Information Documents - Kent State

[url]http://foia.fbi.gov/kentstat.htm[/img]

The legacy is Universities are no longer a place of learning but a mass of anti US activists who gather, at their parents expense, to bitch about shit and figure out how to fuck up the country even worse when they are old enough.

No Sympathy For Hippies.

Kent State 0
National Guard 6

Like we all can believe the FBI files as fact.

No thanks.

Yeah, I think I'll believe the popular liberal media instead. Here's exacly how stupid you are. That is the Freedom of Information Act link. Those are the actual documents related to the case, NOT the FBI version of what happened.

If only YOU could have made it 5.

"If you DON'T want to get shot, don't throw rocks and bottles at the men in uniforms carrying guns."

What is the purpose of students going to school to protest the fucking war? I'll tell you, they can avoid military service that way. They were NOT there to learn but to create problems. And they GOT problems.

They ONLY people I feel sorry for were the students who were actually there to learn. People paid good money or got good grades for the opportunity to attend Kent State and improve their life. When they get there they find the entire campus held hostage by a bunch of drug addicted hippies.

Make the world a better place, beat the shit out of a hippie.

LOL!  
Tell us how you REALLY feel Steyr!

"Correct you are Johnny!"

NO group of anarchists holding public property hostage (sit-ins, etc) should be surprised if the Gov't uses force against them.

[b]The radical hippies at Kent State were mostly white and so they got what they deserved.[/b]


But Kent State was NOTHING compared to what the Black Panthers did to Cornell University in 1969. Using shotguns and automatic rifles, these black Marxists terrorists stormed the Administration buildings and held the President [u]at gunpoint[/u] for a day and a half until he finally buckled and promised to create a "black studies" program for them and hire exactly who THEY told him to hire for professorships.

They got what they wanted and walked out proudly holding up their guns, wearing loaded bandoliers across their chest and fists in the air saluting the Black Power Salute.

At that point, the Marxist militants KNEW they could get anything they want from then on.  And they have.

Today, these very same militant black radical Marxists  actually commemorate and celebrate their armed  terrorist action as an "enduring symbol of black student activism"!! [url=http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/April97/stokely.jkg.html]Cornell Univ. [b]"Commemmorates"[/b] the Black Terrorists of '69[/url]

For the rest of the story...
[url=https://www.amazon.com/dp/0801436532?tag=arfcom00-20][b]Cornell '69[/b][/url]
[img]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0801436532.01.__PE_PIm.arrow,TopLeft,-2,-19_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img]





[b][red]You're right [/red]SteyrAUG [red]they should have killed (or imprisioned) ALL of them. [/red][/b]

One of my three brothers was a hippie POS back then. Guess what: he still is!  He's been banished by the rest of the family, and I haven't talked to him in over 15 years. Don't care to either.
Note that long hair does not a hippie make. I've had long hair on and off over the years, but anybody calling me a hippie gets the smack-down!

Takes more than long hair. Many hippies are undercover scum and dress in suits and call themselves things like "Senator."

But they had an excellent basketball team this year.

I went to KSU in the mid 80's after I got out of the service. College was a big disappointment. To much liberalism, to much anything goes, to much relativism, not enough educating. While teaching tolerance of minorities, "alternative life styles" and radical politics they teach intolerance of traditional values, white heterosexual men, Christianity and democracy. I grew up in a city near Kent and remember the riots pretty well. Those scum bags rioted and tried to burn down the city and the campus for 2 days before the Guard shut/shot them down. The blood of those students is on the hands of the outside agitators and rioters who grew up to be the long haired yuppie scum that they are today.

Kentstate4 if you took your name because you were there then come back around. I work with some guys who were there with the Guard. They wouldn't mind having a second shot at you. You didn't happen to end up in Alaska by way of Canada did you? Do you have Jimmy Carter to thank for your freedom? Just curious.

(No offense to long hairs, yuppies or scum unless you happen to be all three)

Or President.  

Tree huggin hippies. I hate phucking hippies!
-Eric Cartman

[url]http://www.psci.net/~sharong/hippie.wav[/url]
[url]http://www.psci.net/~sharong/hippie2.wav[/url]

You guys are disgusting me right now.  "Come on back, they want a second shot at you?"  The American government opens fire on some of its citizens, and it's a GOOD thing?  

Next you guys will be telling me the five colonials killed at the Boston Massacre brought it on themselves.

I had just returned from Vietnam when Kent State happened.  I had just started college.  Upon coming to class the liberal professor asked us what we thought the lessons of Kent State were.  I answered "Don't mess around with the Ohio National Guard".  The professor gave me a chewing out to rival a drill sergeant in basic training.  I told her she was a fucking idiot and got up and walked out of class.

ZAK  Your analogy was one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.  Were you around in the sixties?  Do you have a clue as what the left wing anti cold war Vietnam movement was all about? Do you have any idea who the good guys were and who were the bad guys?

It's ironic about how some people get upset over Waco, Ruby Ridge, and others who have been killed by various government agencies at various levels, but seem to take great glee at students being killed by Guardsmen.  Seems hypocrytical to me.

This is not a case of "innocent protestors" being killed by the Guard. This is a case of violent activists (like the Seattle ones) creating a destructive situation and attacking the Guard who was there as a RESULT of their violence. The USNG was within their rights to defend themselves. You gonna let people throw rocks and bottles at you?



Actually, as unpopular as it is, The Boston Massacre was a wonderful piece of propaganda by Samuel Adams.

[url]http://www.greeceny.com/arm/welch/massacre.htm[/url]

"The Boston Massacre was and event that led up to the Revolutionary War. Many important events led up to the massacre. It was called a massacre by the use of propaganda. It mainly started by the British trying to enforce laws.

The Boston Massacre wasn’t really a massacre, but more like a riot. In fact only five people died."

[url]http://www.tiac.net/users/amerins/mass.htm[/url]

"The real significance of this event was that it gave rebellious leaders propaganda against the British. Sam Adams has been accused of actually instigating the whole event for just this purpose."

[url]http://www.bostonmassacre.net/alternative.htm[/url]

"The purpose of the Boston Massacre was to try to make liberal and moderate people become radicals. It was really an accident and the radicals tried to use propaganda and turn something small into something big."

Larry, ONE BIG DIFFERENCE.

The Weaver family way up in the hills at Ruby Ridge were not a violent threat to the community.

The Davidians (nuts as they were) way out in the middle of Waco (read: Nowhere) were not a violent threat to the community.

IF, the protestors were in their own little deserted area and NOT being a violent threat to the community I would be more than happy to agree with you.

LARRYG

There was a real civil war going on in those days.  It was a fight to oppose the assholes who wanted the international spread of communism.  Fortunately the government was on the side of the good guys then.  It was not on the side of the good guys at Waco and Ruby Ridge.  If the bad guys had won we would not even have a constitution.  As a Southerner whose ancestors had been oppressed by the US government I can see the difference.

The Ohio NG were just following orders, right SteyrAUG?
The rest of the hippies should have been deloused and gven work, wouldn't you agree?
Work would have made them free.


Your thinly disguised love for authoritarianism grows tiresome.

I too, am a Southerner, so I know of what you speak.  While I don't condone what happened at Ruby Ridge or Waco, they were armed and the students were.  While Weaver and Koresh and their companions did not represent a violent threat to the community, they were armed and the students weren't.  Kent State happened 1 year before I went into the military.  I thought it was wrong then and I still do now.  I still don't feel that the Guardsmen were under enough threat to fire indiscriminately into a crowd.  Hell, one of those killed was not even one of the demonstrators.  He was walking to class a block or so away and a stray bullet got him.

Nope, I missed that decade by about four years.



Are you HONESTLY going to sit there and tell me that the anti-war movement was [i]simply[/i] a vehicle to destroy the american way of life?  Are you freeking nuts?

A whole bunch of people were involved in the anti-war protests for a whole bunch of different reasons.  One of the most moving (domestic) images I've seen of the 60s is a bunch of people holding a sign saying "Support our troops--Bring them home." Are you going to sit there and tell me the people holding that sign were treasonous for doing so?

Ubdoubtedly, there WERE bad elements involved.  Just like any other large group of people.  But do you remember that bit in the Constitution about the People having the right to petition the government for a redress of greivances?  

What do you do when they don't listen?  What do you do when the government goes out of its way to spy on, harass, falsely accuse, and take away the rights of highly visible members of your community?  Frankly, I think some of them acted with remarkable restraint.  I'd probably start shooting if treated hat way.



No, but I bet you're going to tell me that J. Edgar Hoover, Lyndon Johnson, and Richard Nixon numbered among the good guys, right? [rolleyes]

Nope, just defending themselves. Throw rocks and bottles at ANYONE here and see what happens. Except of course for KentState4 who will probably ball up and whine.



Nice thinly disguised Aushwitz referrence. Is your point you love hippies? Or just the violent activists of the Kent State incident?



Oh, that IS funny. Pleace cite ONE example. Do you remember my 1000 post "WACO: A Federal Perspective"?

Here it is...[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=20662[/url]

My LOVE for "authoritarianism" in all it's glory.  LOL.

I was 9 years old and living about 60 miles from Kent State.

From the events that day, I learned one very important thing:

Never throw bottles and rocks at people who are carrying firearms.

Dumbass hippy peaceniks:
They got a piece of something alright.

Ohio National Guard 4
Kent State          0

Jay
[img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]

Get your history straight Zak. The Boston Massacre wasn't quite the massacre the patriots reported it to be. Revisionist history is not a new concept. Are you equating the war protests of the 60's/70's with the American Revolution? Would that have been the American Communist Revolution? If so thank God they lost. No, it's not a good thing when Govt. troops fire on their own people but we pay them to project the political will of the majority and to preserve our Republic. Sometimes that means by use of force. The long hair hippie scum were definitely not in the majority. What ever political goals they had were secondary to the political goals of the majority. Isn't that how the system is supposed to work? If you try to affect change by use of force then you should expect resistance by use of force. You seem to be forgetting the bombings, killings, kidnappings, robberies, etc. perpetrated by the underground elements of these campus radical groups. They took more than 4 lives. They were willing to kill to achieve their goals. They were willing to put innocents in harms way in order to achieve their goals. The lives of those 4 kids meant nothing more to them than political clout. They were spoiling for a violent reaction. They got it. They are responsible and none of them died so yeah, maybe a second shot at them isn't such a bad idea.

ZAK

Son, you continue to be ridiculous.

I don't feel like giving you a complete history lesson on the anti-war movement of the sixties.  Pay careful attention to SUKEBE post above.  You might just learn something.

I'll make this very simple for you.  Listen very carefully:

A good guy was SP4 Terry Davis of Haines City Florida.  He died in my arms in 1968 after attacking a communist position.  He was killed by a Russian made SKS and Chinese 7.62 x 39 ammo.

A bad guy was one of those Marxist at Cornell as mentioned above.

A good guy was Ollie North, a Marine platoon leader fighting communist aggression in 1968.

A bad guy was Bill Clinton who refused to serve his country because it wouldn't get him blowjobs.

A good guy would have been one of the law enforcement officers on a college campus.

A bad guy would have been one of the moron protesters.

Get the picture?  Should I expand the list?

How about your recent "The Nazis weren't all bad" thread?
[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=107844[/url]

The event shouldn't have happened, BUT there were mitigating factors - which is probably why no guardsmen were ever charged with anything.

1.)The guardsmen were in Michigan immediately before Kent State on flood duty.  They got bused back to Kent to help control the riots.  They were operating with no sleep at near exhaustion.  Then they encounter a bunch of punks their own age ABUSING THEM FOR SERVING THEIR COUNTRY!

2.) The police had very good reason believe that a number of militants were on their way to Kent to cause mayhem.  Things like arson, blowing up buildings, poisoning the town water supply, etc.  The riots weren't a local protest against the war; to say it was is abject BS.



ZAK et al,
It is pretty well accepted that the anti-war movement was funded and organized in part by the Eastern Bloc.  

WE were the good guys in Southeast Asia.  Look at what happened there after we left.

I still makes me sick to think that leftist Americans actualy believed that the people in SE Asia were better of with Stalinist governments than with some kind of fledgling democracy...

Hmmm

SteyrAUG post.......


No PORN!!


What the heck is going on here??  Have I been misslead???

You belive everything the FBI says?

NICE SPIN. Way to attempt to portray me as some kind of nazi sympathizer.  But it was NOT a "Nazis weren't all bad." post. What I in fact said was...



And you should have payed attention to this part...


But please continue to try and find ONE EXAMPLE of my "love for authoritarianism."

As you can see I nowhere stated I loved the Nazis.

ONCE AGAIN. The link is NOT the FBI version of events. If one would take the time to click on the link they would discover that it is all documents related to the event. These are the documents the FBI used in order to investigate things and were classified AT THE TIME. The majority of these documents are NOT from FBI sources but were collected by the FBI.

The dumbass who was the CO on the ground that gave the order to fire should've been freaking court-martialed!!!!!!!!!

Fixing bayonets & marching with points forward must've seemed too GD common sense to them.

Shooting down unarmed protesters doesn't seem like very much to be proud of.

If I attack a man with a bottle in my hand, is that assault w/ a deadly weapon? How about if I throw a rock, say golf ball size and hit him in the head? These are really questions I have, and might very well make a difference in this discussion. I know that either of these objects can be used to strike a deadly blow, does this qualify as being presented with deadly force? I was not alive at the time of this incident, and admit to my ignorance on the subject, but I think these are the relevant questions.

I was pretty young when this happened, but I seem to remember 2 students being shot in the back.  Yeah, they were a real threat.  Some of the protesters may have been rowdy, but does that justify shooting into a crowd?

Well, if the History Channel can be believed, here is what I gathered from the recent program that was on about Kent State:

1.  13 shot.  4 dead, rest wounded.
2.  Out of the 4 dead, two students were not even in the immediate vicinity of the protest.  From what the special said, one was a ROTC student on his way to class--340 yards away.  The second was a female student watching the protest from a distance of 200 yards away.
3.  ALL shootings occurred AT LEAST 50 yards from the Guardsman.  Most occurring 75+ yards away, with some MUCH further away.  This is well outside bottle and rock range!
4.  When the Guardsman opened fire, there were no bottles and rocks being hurtled by the protestors en masse.  There was a report of one guardsman who thought he had been hit by something, and then turned and fired his rifle.
5.  Once the first Guardsman fired his rifle, this was followed by a 12 second volley of fire by a number of other Guardsman.  The number of rounds was 60 to 70 fired.
6.  There was never an order to fire given, or at least no one would admit there ever was an order given.  No one remembers HEARING an order given.
7.  A number of Guardsman WERE charged in the deaths (six, I think), on what charge I do not know.  The charges did not result in any convictions and seemed to have simply been dropped.

I don't know what you are talking about. Every bit of the info is part of an official FBI file, with an FBI case number. Practically all of the included documents are on FBI letter head signed by FBI officials. A few documents are not FBI but are from other Federal Government Agencies. The whole thing is posted on the Department of Justice / FBI web page.

So how can you assert this is not the FBI's version of what happened?

Did I miss something?

Ok to be clear on one point. No I certainly don't always agree with the government version of things. Especially under the Johnson Administration.

But here is the point I was trying to make. The docs in the file where classified at the time. They were the docs the FBI was using at the time to work the case. Therefore they will be as accurate as possible for the benefit "of" the FBI. What the official story was at the time can completely contradict classified FBI documents if they choose. The FBI always seeks to know the truth even when it is counter productive to their agenda. The official version can be whatever they want it to be.

OOPS!

Just to make my view on what DonSchultz posted known. Any innocent bystanders killed is terrible and unfortunate. Anyone not directly involved in the hijacking of the American political process who was injured is also unfortunate. Any of those directly involved who managed to get away without a scratch distresses me deeply.

No, in my opinion a bottle is NOT a deadly weapon. Yes, it can hurt your ass but these guys were wearing, IIRC, steel helmets. And a good butt stroke with a M-14 on some sorry assed punk would've evened things up a bunch.

One does not sling bullets against an unarmed opponent especially when one has a rifle with a bayonet on the end of it that one can use to worthy effect.

Just watched a show featuring the only known film footage of the incident on The History Channel last night.  Based on what I saw and what the people who were interviewed said, the Ohio National Guard put on their golf shoes and tramped all over their own peckers.
Those of you who are exulting in the deaths of these students, even the ones who might possibly have genuinely been radicals, are the stuff of which death squads and einsatzgruppen are formed.

Well thats one of the most irresponsible remarks I've heard in a while.

What if that would have been one of your loved ones (say your brother/sister) that was just going to class and got caught in the fire?

And you wanted to see more people get hit?

Too bad they didn't have Supersoakers back ni the '60s.  All the Guardsmen needed was a bunch of Supersoakers filled with soapy water.  Nothing ruins a hippy's day like a bath.

Hi guys I was there, a student working his way through college.  and I was grilled by the OBI and the FBI.  And had to testify before the Ohio grand jury.  Some things that arn't know.  The Pres of KSU had been informed that there wer members of the Weatherman and the SDS on Campus to cause trouble. So what did he do, he left town that weekend.
  and they started trouble, Sat night when bar alleys bars let out they had these drunken college kids really stured up. a hundred or so came through town raiseing helland broke maybe a doz store windows,and finally set fire toa ROTC storage building.  So, you had the vice pres who was lost, call the 4man campus police cheif who was lost, who called the local 6 man police dept who was lost, call the 8man sherrif dept who was lost, call the Ohio state police who called the gov and he called in the NG. They were young tired men with with no croud control training holding rifles.
  Then monday, a warm sunny day.And there was a protest. from the hill I could see armed NG and an maybe 50-75 protesters walking an shouting ect.  I was more interested checking out the babes. there might have been 75 kids on the hill like me just BSing.  I left befor classes let out.  But knowing kids. When the classes let out they gatered to check it out and there could have easily been a couple hundred on the hill.  You have to realize there was some big building right there and several hundred kid come out of them every hr and you usually go from one building to another to the next class.And back then any protest even a protest for bad lunches would draw a croud.  Now throw in the anti war feaver of the times, and you got a powder keg.  And the fuse was lit because that's what the Weatherman and SDS were there for.
   The only amazeing thing to me is how in the workd only 4 were killed.
  Now here's a question for ya. when I was questioned.  I seen stacks of photo books.  I mean the big black cover ones with maybe a couple hundred pic in each one.   I was shown atleast 75-100pics from a dox books on nothing but the croud on the hill before the shooting.  Now how many men does it take to take several thousand pics  in maybe  2hrs and remember this was 70s still picture cameras. I'd guess a half doz atleast and more likea doz.
 so it seems like the only ones who had their shit together was the camera men.  Seems to me if they were prepared enough to have all this camera shit ready then they could have been better ready to police what was happening.  A couple doz atate troupers with shotguns would hae been alot better for all concerned. And could have handled these kids. The drunkards could have been arrested Sat night.  and the kids should have know you don't fuck with people with loaded rifles.  I did that's why I left.  
 Everyone fucked up.  The KSU pres the vice pres, the cops the sherrif, the gov the guard and the students.     I just turned 19, a freshman  and first time really away from home, an I was 5 or 6 blocks away and hell I thought they were fireing machine guns and I was duckig an running.
Civil unrest over the war all over the country from both young an old.
 I think KS was over reaction by the guard, but under reaction by he state police.

Hi it's me again,for you that weren't liveing those days it will be a tough time to understand.  We were eatig supper in front of the TV and seeing our boys killed. You didn't watch TV without seeing bodybags everyday. Our boys. It semed like Several hundred every week every week, Dead, week in week out, month in month out, for several yrs. Dead, Our boys dead, and how bad they were.   For every good story you heard the press printed 50 horror stories. Even patroits were questioning the war.  Hell only a fool wouldnt.  We weren't fighting it to win.  We were fighting a defensive holding action.  We fought to the boarder and then stoped.
And our boys weren't dieing for OUR FREEDOM. They were dieing for someone elses freedom, and the people of Nam really didn't give a shit who won. the Nam Government was as corrupt as it could get.
 We were seeing millions of our dollars being spent over there and thousands of our boys dieing over there, and for what?
 My dad joined the Marines 3 days after Pearl Harbor and spent 4 yrs in the pacific.  from New Georgia all the way up those islands till the bomb was droped on Japan.  A more patriotic man I've never met. Hell I doubt anyof us will ever give what he's given.  and even he was questioning the war.  You fight a war to WIN, otherwise your just going to keep dieing and spending money.
 Plus we had alot of racial unrest back then.  Race riots were getting worse.  Whole neighborhoods were burnt down. Protests were a weekly event in the US.

So I gather that stabbing them would have been the correct way to handle this? A broken bottle has sharp edges and can be used in a stabbing manner as well as to cut. I am not saying that this was entirely right, however throwing objects at armed men is a very STUPID thing to do.

Getting back to the armed/unarmed thing once more, a bayonet against an unarmed opponent is more proper than bullets are. This to represents the use of deadly force, against and unarmed opponent in your own words. Maybe then we should just issue our guardsmen and soldiers knives and leave the guns out of it, that way nobody gets shot, even if it is for being VERY stupid.

Cont.  Under this.  Times were good.  Jobs were everywhee, folks were makeing a good liveing.  We were still rideing the post WW11 manifactureing boom in this country.  Most folks were liveing very good, yet our neighbors sons, our sons, our brothers were dying in some far off land that no one really gave a shit about.  and cities in our nation were being burnt down. And Russia had the BOMB.
 It was some very confuseing times.
 The attitude and mentality of this country is very hard to explain.
  And this was definately not the attitude or mentality of the country durring Ruby ridge or Waco.  and I don't think they are comparisons at all.
   Have you ever heard a bunch of noise and walked over to see what was going on?   that's what I did that dya.  I didn't know anything about the protest. Hell I didn't evenknow where the rotc building was.  Just walked over the hill to check out what the noise was. Checked out a few babes, seen a protest going on checked out some more females, took a few min to see people were protesting. Check out some more gals and then seen the building was burnt down, and there were armed army riflemen down there and some of the protesters were raseing hell.  so I walked away checking out the girls.  and if I asked for anything that day it was for phone numbers or a date.
  Alot of lives were changed that day.  It was 18 yrs before I made it back to college.  
 Hindsight is 20/20 but I lived it an I really don't have the answer.  We got alot better croud and roit control now, so atleast we've learned alittle.    JB

JBA111--

Thank you for taking the time as someone who was there to give us an "I was there" perspective on this.

[b]"They should have killed or imprisioned ALL of them. For actual facts of Kent State and the follow up actions by hippies/protestors including vandalism of the campus..."[/b]


[b]"You're right SteyrAUG they should have killed (or imprisioned) ALL of them."[/b]


[b]"The blood of those students is on the hands of the outside agitators and rioters who grew up to be the long haired yuppie scum that they are today. Kentstate4 if you took your name because you were there then come back around. I work with some guys who were there with the Guard. They wouldn't mind having a second shot at you."[/b]

[b]"This is not a case of "innocent protestors" being killed by the Guard. This is a case of violent activists (like the Seattle ones) creating a destructive situation and attacking the Guard who was there as a RESULT of their violence."[/b]

[b]"Dumbass hippy peaceniks:
They got a piece of something alright"[/b]


You guys ought to hurry on down to K-Mart.  With all the shit they have marked down, you can stock up on brown shirts cheaply.

Tell me, who -specifically- were these "outside agitators" you keep talking about?  That sounds a lot like the "nigra agitators" the KKK and assholes like George Wallace used to bitch about.

Go run a web search and find the names of the students who were killed and injured.  Then tell me -specifically- what they each did to deserve being shot.