If the Israeli and Palestinian situation remains un-checked sooner rather than later the Muslim oil producing states will reduce the oil supply.

Venezuela, Nigeria, etc.,  will all quickly follow.

Funny economic reality here - the oil producing countries will make just as much money with reduced supply and selling at a higher price plus extend their reserves.

When gasoline is $2.50 per gallon and heading up, when unemployment is approaching 9% and continuing up what will your position be on further funding Israel ??

Maybe it is time for a reality check ?

If that happens all those opposed to drilling in ANWR should be reassignd to oil rig duty...

AGREED !!

However nothing can be done in the short term and I mean years.

We haven't added any new states in a long long time.  Maybe we should start considering which oil producing country would make a nice 51st state.  Any suggestions???  :)

IF we went that way there is only one country and one answer - Arabia.

That's one HELL of good idea.  Kind of a payback for all the aid we've given them.

if only we could just cut off the cash. see how those goddamn saudis like thier americian cashcow dryin up

Quit your cowardly crying!!  Matters not whether we support Israel!  The Arabs hate US no matter what.  An oil supply interuption is an act of war and should be considered as such.  In 30 days we can get it for free after we take over Saudi.  Hope fully we will completely depopulate it in doing so.

In addition, Russia is capable of making up the shortfall.

By no means imaginable is Russia capable of making up the shortfall.
Does Russia have the reserves ?  Yes.
Does Russia have the technology to produce the oil ?  No.

I could be mistaken about Russian production capability so will not argue that point.  I though their problem was adequate ice free port in production area?

In any event I STILL want to nuke SA!!

Greed's a beautiful and incorruptible thing.  The muslim nations may indeed unit to jack with us, but you can bet the russia and venezuala are seeing big time dollar signs at that prospect.  

Maybe we could supply them with the technology and supplies to drill drill for and produce this vast oil reserve.  Then take ooohhh ssaaayyy 80% of the oil as payment.  OK OK...90%.  We have to leave them something I guess.

I heard somewhere recently that there is a huge possibility for drilling for oil off the coast of the US, but the environmentlists naturally won't alow it.  Something like as much oil as the mideast has.

If the oil producing countries cut us off they will be cutting their own throats and they know it.

Mickey Mouse-

You can nuke our holylands right after I get back from pumping the Vatican so full of VX that the paint peels off the walls and the Pope and his followers are reduced to little bubbeling puddles.

All of you Muslim bashers seem to forget that our numbers arnt in the Middle East, you'll still have a billion or so of us to contend with right here in the US, Canada and more importantly Asia, India, and the South West Pacific. Very soon here there will be more Muslims in the world than any other faith, its outgrowing Christianity here in the US, in Centeral and South America.

Face it, we're here to stay and we wont be your sand-niggers anymore.

We did the right thing in WWII with the Japs and need to do the same with the rags here now.  Roun 'em up and inter them until the hostilities cease.  All of 'em!

More evidence that islam is a peaceful religion[rolleyes]

Mexico is a member of OPEC, it is closer. Istead of Mexicans coming to America, we can just make Mexico part of America and leave them there.

I hate being beat to the punch.

I have been an advocator of annexing Mexico for years.  Huge tax base and full of natural resources.  We could show them what tax and spend politics are all about.

First, religion wasn't brought by anyone but you.  They are talking about one country.  No one said raghead but you.  No one said 'sand nigger'.

Second, a billion?  We don't have that many people of all kinds in this country.  Check your math.

If I remember correctly, you are in the US military.  Are you saying that if we went to war against a Muslim country, you wouldn't follow orders?

Subsailor, we both love our 180Bs, but damn, man.  These threads are getting old.  We didn't stop supporting them in the 70s during the so called embargo and we won't now.  Get over it.  This Israeli thing is just a smokescreen on their part.  They have been looking for an excuse.  Look who instigated the talk of such a thing, Saddam.  He would love to do anything to take the heat off himself, as right now he expects to get his ass kicked.  Have you noticed that the current wave of suicide bombings did not start until we started talking about going after Iraq?  You are playing right into his hands with this kind of talk.

While we (our leaders) are making a valiant effort to control the focus of the war in Afghanistan, will their efforts ultimately be in vein? Here is what I mean:

Pondering all that is happening there, with Arafat in essence throwing in with Osama (reading from the same play book) in pushing
forward with a policy that highlights the religious and philosophical differences between fundamental Islam and the rest of the Judeo
Christian world, are we just kidding ourselves?

I guess first you would have to agree with me that what Arafat is doing is basically training the Palestinian youth that the only guaranteed way to paradise is to die in a jihad and that this is why Israel is suffering from continuous suicide bombers. If you do, than we can continue. (no?, sure, the Nazis weren't killing any Jews either)

Can we compare the ideology (or pathology) that is currently installed in these Palestinian youth to the Nazi youth of WWII? These
young people were so brainwashed that they would turn in their own parents for not measuring up. Would it have been ridiculous to try to separate Nazis and Germans? Is there a parallel between the two scenarios?

Are these two phrases synonymous?

Natzism is "OK" but those extremist SS the real danger.
Islam is "OK" but these Fundamentalist Muslims are a danger.

(Feel free to interchange or use other terms if I have them in the wrong class.)

Germany eventually saw the error and horror in what they embraced, will the Arab world?

Is Islam fascism?

If it is, can we stop WWIII?

Gee, you hide your billion people well!  

With that many industrious, hard-working, intelligent, well-funded people around the planet - I'd expect the Moslems would have surpassed Western Civilization by now.

With all the rich, untapped natural resources and minerals of Indonesia and African nations, the petroleum reserves and [u]astounding wealth[/u] of the Arab MidEast nations, and the energetic, enterprising multitudes of Moslems around the world - by now, "you people" should have made incredible technological, biomedical, agricultural and economic advances that make us Westerners look like the tiny minority population that we are on this planet.

And what has your billion people (scattered across many Moslem nations) and your astonishing concentrations of wealth (in the hands of a just a few Moslem nations) produced in, say, the last thousand years????

What miraculous medical advancements were entirely funded by your filthy rich Moslem Kings?

What technological breakthroughs in materials science have come from your world class Moslem research institutions?

What great advances in political or economic theory has been put forth in the last millenia by the many brilliant thinkers of the Moslem world?

What ingenious agricultural advancements have been developed by the rich Moslem nations to supply more food to the poor Moslem nations?

Just what the f*@k has a billion Moslem people done for the advancement of all humanity???

The Moslem nations have the natural resources, wealth and people to do great things. But they don't.


Face it, you are your own sand-niggers.

[b]"Face it, you are your own sand-niggers."[b]

Ouch!

There wont be an oil crisis like there was in the 70's.

In early 70's the saudis had pricing power.  In the late 70's, they had Carter and price caps which created shortages.

FF to the Gulf War.  Gas was expensive, but there was no shortage.  The Gulf Region was immediately threatened, Kuwait's wells were ignited, and yet we didn't have an energy crisis comparable to the 70's.  Which means we wont have a crisis now.

All other OPEC countries would have to accept their countries' best interest lies with siding with anti-Israel, radical muslim states in the post 9/11 world and forgoing billions in revenue to further those agendas.  Tchya, right.  

ANWR, if we started development immediately, wouldn't be putting oil downstream for at least five years.  Five years is assuming all environmental groups relize their idiocy and put themselves to real work in the private sector.  Not likely.  So optomistically, ten years we could see ANWR online.

Isreal will always remain with U.S backing IN MY OPINION. There isnt just politics and money going on between Us them and our allies. There is a religion tie to that place that many westerners look to. Cristianity (sp?) among other religions were born there. Religion is were lines get grey and so do reasons money is a clear subject everyone wants money period religion is differnt there are a thousand people screaming a thousand differnt things.
Also according to the ABC world news program on tonight we only get 10% of our oil from the middle east. according to them its our allies in europe and japan who get large amounts from them. if supply gets cut then they are really hurt and supposedly prices around the world rise according to them oil has one world wide price. These peolple probably know far more about economics than I do and I dont even know how to start arguing that point except to say i was supprised by how little oil they claim we get from the middle east. I think thats why dollers are going that diection because a world wide increse in oil price could really hurt us.
but these are all only MY OPINIONS flame away if you feel the need

RikWriter,

I mean no flames here but must ask why and in what way would the oil producing countries cut their own throats ??

You're a bright guy so I'll go to their first move before production would be cut even one barrel:  They will 'short' the dollar a hundred billion or so since only the oil producing countries will know what's coming and exactly when.

The billions made from this one move will be staggering as the dollar will definitely head for the tank.

Never mind that they will make as much or more money with reduced production AND conserve their oil reserves.
Unfortunately Win, Win and Win.

L.engineer,

you are so right.
In the first oil embargo of the 1970's it was the idea of Venezeula not the Muslims.

DrFrige,
I'll not answer the personal insults as they don't matter.

The point I'm trying to raise is if/when the oil producing countries reduce production will our government have much choice in what to do ?

No POTUS or U.S. government can long stand before a crumbling economy and do nothing.
----------------------------------------------

My hope, no my prayer is the U.S. will dictate to both Israel AND the Palestinians where the boundaries of the new country will be and carefully explain to the warring parties that the bullshit is over and that we're perfectly capable of killing everyone on either side that does not abide by the new rules.

IF Muslim states DARED to shut off the oil to us, they would also be shutting off their own economies.
There is no other consumer to replace us.
It would be as if McDonalds stopped selling to half of its customers.
McDonalds would cease to exist.

The oil industries in each of these countries are what employ their people.
If they did this, they would be in economic chaos, each and every one of these regimes would
be overthrown be an angry, hungry mob.

Unfortunately I'm thinking you're about right on your time line.

That same time line would apply to Russia 'IF' we could cut a deal allowing us immediate access.  Because of the permafrost problem in Russia entirely new technology will probably be needed.

Uh, Canada and Mexico (along with Central and South America) are the source for the vast majority of oil imports into the U.S.  


I say INVADE CANADA, the beer's better!


[url]http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/petroleum_issues_trends_1996/CHAPTER4.PDF[/url]

Actually the oil producing states can make at least the same money with reduced production as they make with current production.  (probably more)

Demand cannot be quickly changed and reduced supply means we pay higher prices.

Early financial moves, such as selling the U.S. dollar short would insure a one time windfall of untold billions.

No.

It's one thing to reduce production.
It's another to cut production in half.
They wouldn't be able to make up for it in any of the ways you mentioned, not at that scale.

That would leave almost HALF of their workforce idle.
Not a good situation for a despotic regime, hmmm?

Probably about 10% or so of our oil comes the middle east.
However, in the world economy a depressed Japan and Europe quickly and dramatically affects the U.S. economy.  (Never mind the disastrous affects a 10% reduction in supply would have.)

And don't think that countries such as Venezuela won't lead the price increase/production band wagon.  It was Venezuela not the middle eastern producers that conceived and lead the first oil embargo.  

If I mentioned reducing production by half I was just wrong.
Something on the order of 10% reduction in production - maybe less - would drive us into a world-wide recession.

By half, I'm referring to the idea of these states not selling ANY oil to the US or others who support Israel.

Our consumption is not spread evenly throughout the region.
Most of it comes from Saudi.
They would have to reduce by at least half.
Or something like that [:)].

Other than oil I just can't think of any strong cards the Muslims have to play ?

I believe they will play this card if something isn't done to stabilize the situation between Israel and the Palestinians.

I don't think it matters much what the dictators of these countries think or would like to do.  
Their populations will demand action and the dictators will respond to keep their power.

Nicely put.

If it weren't for oil, the only commodity worth exporting in the mideast would be carpets, camel saddles, and sand. Lots and lots of sand.

If the oil producing countries in the mideast shut off the pumps, they'll lose their primary source of income,  and the only thing incoming then would be radioactive and moving at mach FIVE.

A billion muslims (or a billion of ANY people) is a job for a handful of nukes.  Ka-fucking-BOOM.  Case closed.  Oil that's slightly radioactive still works just fine in your motor.

We will have our oil.  We'll buy it at a reasonable price on the open market, or we'll simply take it when reason fails on the part of the producers, particularly when they're insane to begin with.

Yes, I say insane.  The entire mideast shitstorm is based on a form of institutionalized insanity called RELIGION.
MUSLIM, JEWISH, CHRISTIAN, WHATEVER.  All of them encourage insane behavior.

Why?    Well, it's simple enough to me.  Every religion claims that they and they alone have the "correct" way of worshipping God, and anyone who worships the SAME GOD in any other way is either an infidel (kill them), a heathen (kill them) a gentile (don't associate with them) or an apostate. (Ignore or convert them.)

Of them all, muslims are the worst about being tolerant of other religions, so that's the bottom of the barrel in my book.  There is no less tolerant, less human-oriented religion that I know of.   I know damned well that God does not intend for women to be treated like property!

It's all BULLSHIT.  It matters now HOW you worship God, so long as you worship God.  This "My religion is better than yours" crap is appalling.   We've got tiny little sects that are an offshoot of a significant branch of a major church sitting out in the back woods somewhere, with maybe thirty members in the entire congregation, and they claim to have the secrets of the universe and believe that the rest of us are sadly misinformed and need to be converted, yet they may not have the equivalent of a junior high school education and barely know what a car is.

Peace will come when people stop following RELIGIONS and start following GOD.   Not until then.


My flameproof suit is on and it's airtight.

If you want to flame me, just make sure of one thing:  Do it here on the board only.  DO NOT take this to email.  


CJ

This thread has deteriorated.  GuardTanker, you are way over the line in saying what you just said.  It was simply offensive, and you should be ashamed of yourself.  You cannot justify it by claiming to be provoked by Mickey Mouse.

And Mickey, you are easily one of the most hate-filled members of this board.  Witness some of your own postings:







None of the above are taken out of context.  I wonder at this hatred that fills your soul.  Do you think that it makes you a better person?  A better neighbor?  A better American?

I do not know what troubles me more - your crazed rantings or the relative silence that greets your posts.  We (rightly) demand that moderate Muslims denounce their extremists.  I sometimes wonder if we ought to hold ourselves to the same standard.

This is an Internet board, so your rantings don't mean much (yet).  Be aware that in the real world, your words above, if spoken to real people, are likely to constitute fighting words and an incitement to violence.  And if you act upon your views and inflict violence upon other peope, be warned that your fellow citizens will take a dim view of it:
http://[url]www.dallasnews.com/texassouthwest/ap/stories/AP_STATEGS_0131.html[/url]



Dude, you may want to seek some counselling before your hatred turns you into a withered husk of a man, or worse, if you end up on death row like Mark Stroman.

Yea, they really got us by the go'nads.

We should surely surrender our complete servitude to our (obvious) supreme lords and rulers in these Muslim states.

Maybe they are right about Israel. It’s such a small country really. We wouldn't miss it much. And the whole world would be a much happier, peaceful place.

I'm a willing and submissive hostage to the oil supplying Middle East. All is lost. They win.

[sarcasm off]


Huh?

5s5, the breadth of your assessments are bewildering if only because of its constriction.

longshot,
please feel free to offer an assessment less constricted.

I'm just a dumb-ass that would like to see peace in that region and believes the policies of the past - the policies of 'all' the involved countries - have failed.

To further offer my stupidity I actually believe most of the killing can be stopped.

Let them have their little tantrum and stop selling us oil. That will last about as long as it takes to put together an expidetion force to give the asshole oil sheiks a clue. This to will pass.

Oh yeah, GuardTanker? You have some inferiority issues to deal with.

Just an assessment of my own beliefs and desires and hopes:

1)  The right for Israel to exist must be recognized by all factions.

2)  The Palestinians must have a country of their own and the boundaries established through negotiation.
-----------------------------------------------
1)  I deeply resent the fact that the U.S. taxpayer directly funds Israel and their military.

2)  I believe the billions given to Israel should go to our own military as we are in desperate need of rebuilding.
----------------------------------------------

well gee, you even sound like one of them peace-able muslims....

Today we pretty much have a global, interlocked economy.
A reduction in oil production any where in the world will quickly impact most parts of the industrialized world.

CJ,
I do not believe the pumps will be shut off but do believe that supply will be reduced.  Demand is inelastic in the short term and with reduced supply you will have higher prices as the demand remains the same.

The bottom line is that the oil producing countries will make at least as much money be decreasing supply and increasing price.

I'm a strong supporter of your ".....so long as you worship God" statement.

Thank god we still have what’s left of the second amendment.  I’d advise any law abiding citizens being “rounded up” based on their ethnic origin or religion to resist.  Forcibly if necessary.  I suppose you would take away all the guns of law abiding citizens first so you did not get hurt.  

Nice comment Mickey Hitler.  

Should have added that I'm big pissed at American Jews who have both U.S. and Israeli citizenship.
Same problem with American Jews who serve in the Israeli military would wouldn't serve in the U.S. military.

Finally I'm most pissed with those dual citizen American Jews who would take every gun from every American but would support issuing a free M16 to every Israeli.

If a politician is a liberal and duly elected so be it.  But, but, those same views should apply equally to the United States and Israel.

Schumer and Feinstein come immediately to mind.

(I should not forget that plenty of American Jews exist who are arch conservatives.  Seems they are never elected and their voices never heard.)

'ALL' American citizens are due their full rights due under the constitution.

However, I'm much less caring about foreign nationals who are in our country illegally.