Marine blasts Navy dining traditions

Sgt. maj.: Time to end centuries-old officer-enlisted separation on ships

By Dan Lamothe
[email protected]
and Philip Ewing
[email protected]

A senior enlisted Marine who played a central role in U.S. humanitarian operations in Haiti is publicly firing on a Navy tradi tion, saying the service should end its “bad practice” of forcing officers and enlisted personnel to eat sep arately aboard ships.

Sgt. Maj. Louis Espinal, sergeant major for U.S. Southern Command and command sergeant major for Joint Task Force-Haiti, said he decided to take a stand on the issue after first being told that enlisted members wanted to eat with him when he visited a ship off Haiti, then learning that it was a ruse to keep him from eating with the officers.

Espinal, speaking by telephone from Port-au-Prince, told Navy Times that while he was visited an unnamed ship, officers told his task force’s chief of staff that the men wanted to eat with Espinal before he arrived on the ship. He, along with the commander of the operation, Army Lt. Gen. Ken Keen, was aboard for a series of briefings, and Espinal was expect ing to eat with other members of the task force command.

But Espinal and other members of the task force learned before they arrived on the ship that the enlisted had not made the request to eat with him, he said.

“It turned out that it was a ploy by the [ship’s] command to have me dine with the enlisted vice the officers upon the conclusion of the conference,” Espinal said. “The chief of staff, just being the man of character that he is, relayed to the officer that I was going to dine with the conference members, not anybody else, and that’s exactly what happened.” The incident so angered Espinal that he submitted a letter to Navy Times calling on the Navy to end its tradition of enlisted- and offi cer-only dining areas.

“The tradition of segregating the mess is not in keeping with our American values; it’s time the Navy abolishes this age-old tradi tion and allows all sailors and Marines, officers and enlisted, aboard the ship to dine as one,” he wrote. “It’s time to make this tra dition a thing of the past.” In his interview, the 30-year Marine raised a series of questions: Why is the segregation necessary? Why can’t the Navy do something that would improve unit cohesion and morale? And why has the tra dition lasted so long?

“I felt like a second-class leader that this even came up,” Espinal said of the officers’ tactics to sepa rate him. “During my career, I’ve served on many vessels, and the fact is that this tradition is practiced across the board on all vessels.” The chief of staff who originally took the call from the Navy, Army Col. Steve Smith, could not be reached before press time. Because Espinal would not name the ship on which the incident occurred, Navy Times was unable to verify the account with the ship’s com mand or get its side of the story.

A long history of separation

Overturning Navy lifestyles at sea won’t be easy.

The Navy’s shipboard eating customs represent a tradition so ancient and so powerful that few people question it: Sailors just don’t eat with officers or chiefs —

that’s how it has always been.

Indeed, social segregation aboard warships is centuries old. It was influenced by, and then had a major influence on, the construction of ships themselves, which have long been designed with different accom modations for different ranks.

Early on, the division was partly by design to protect higher-rank ing personnel on the ship.

“A ship is an environment in which problems of order and disci pline are naturally acute,” wrote author R.G. Grant in his history “Battle at Sea.” “Men are crammed together for long periods of time, in boredom, danger and discomfort. The lower orders always outnumber the officers, who are poorly placed to call for help in case of trouble.” Class was also a factor: Although professional mariners made up much of the officer corps in the Royal Navy of old, there also were many “gentlemen officers,” and dining apart from commoner crews reflected the social hierar chy that prevailed on land.

The first sailors of the Continen tal and U.S. navies carried over many such traditions from the British. Visitors in Boston who tour the historical frigate Constitution, launched in 1797, see hammocks for sailors on the “berthing deck” that are quite different from what officers and the ship’s captain enjoyed at the stern of the ship.

The practices endured into the age of steam, iron ships and the nuclear era, long after the position masts or a ship’s wheel deter mined the layout of a vessel. In today’s warships, with which designers have wide architectural freedom, the Navy still chooses to build the traditionally separate dining accommodations.

One reason is that keeping ship mates of similar ranks together is helpful in letting them talk frankly, away from the ears of subordinates or superiors, said Command Mas ter Chief (SW/AW) JoAnn Ortloff, the top enlisted sailor with 3rd Fleet, based in San Diego.

“When I served as CMC on [the destroyer] Milius, in my particular chief mess, that’s where I would gather chiefs to discuss items or issues that the commanding officer wanted the chiefs to manage,” she said. “We had to allow for free dia logue, for brainstorming, that wouldn’t be taken out of context by a junior sailor or junior officer [who] was not aware of all of the items that came into play. With the free dialogue, in a comfort zone, without being misconstrued, we could hash out those issues within that crew and start coming up with a plan.” Sailors in today’s Navy have found this custom so appealing that on larger ships, they divide them selves into the smallest possible groups. It’s common for an aircraft carrier to have separate dining areas for its strike group comman­der, an admiral; the ship’s captain; ships’ officers; pilots; chiefs; first class petty officers; and sailors.

Ortloff said these kinds of arrangements are very useful: When first classes have their own mess, for example, they learn leadership and cohesiveness that come in handy when they become chiefs. Officers use their ward room for meetings and to master the protocol they’ll need to know as senior leaders. Underlying it all is a proven history of shipboard management, she said.

“ T hese areas where we meet and where we dine allow us to hold to those traditions ... and for us to have an environment where we can build ourselves better, and build the crew better, before we walk out that door,” Ortloff said.

Still, one former sailor who became an Army warrant officer said he doesn’t care for the lords and-ladies culture at sea. Chief Warrant Officer 2 Andrew Inman, a former first class fire controlman who now flies an Army Black Hawk helicopter, said the Navy wastes too much time and energy on special treatment for officers.

“Having lower-enlisted sailors serve even the most junior of offi cers on fine china for every meal, clean their rooms, make their beds and take out their trash is not only demeaning, but it fosters discontent amongst the ranks,” Inman said. “It is not the 18th-century British Navy anymore, and there is no rea son that the Navy should continue to squander resources that could be better allocated elsewhere.”

So in

I don't see why not.  In Iraq everyone ate in the same dining halls.  Heck, I once sat across from a one-star general.  Why are boats different?

funny i never paid attention when I was on the USS Austin for 8 months.  

Can you pass the butter bar?

The SgtMaj is out of line.

ETA
<––––––––––––––L/Cpl for years who never whined. Stop fucking with tradition already.

Because it's not Iraq.  It's a ship.  If you haven't been there, you don't understand the culture –– it's tradition and culture, and nobody who doesn't understand it is going to change it.  How, in fact, as a senior enlisted Marine, he had never heard of this, I cannot fathom.

ETA:  In general, the SGM probably would have been invited to join the Chiefs in the Chiefs' Mess –– and why anybody would want to dine in the wardroom when they were invited to the Chiefs' Mess, I don't get.

he got offended.  oh well.

Hey, if there is going to be women on ship, we could get them to serve the meals to the men!

Sounds like he got butt hurt and wants to to end a major tradition because of a personal feelings.

OK, tradition and culture is fine, but is there an actual logical reason for it?

he was probably a pogue, and never deployed on a ship.

Evidently.

ETA:  Actually, at reading the article closer, he says he's served on many ships.  Odd that he waits until he's about to retire to bring it up, if it's so personally offensive to him.

This is the Navy.



Do. Not. Question. TRADITIONS!



I'm gone in less than two anyway, non-issue to me.





 

Yes.  The CMC quoted in the article explained it well.

If you stay, you'll understand better down the line...  I wouldn't have understood as a junior Sailor either –– I get it now.

My first thought when reading this article!



 

It'll never happen.

The Officer/CPO/E-6 and below division is too ingrained in the Navy psyche, it would be easier to get the Navy to give up the "Cracker Jack" Dress Blue Uniform then it would be to get rid of the Officer and CPO Messes on board ships.

I know this and I've never even been in the military. I think the way the idea was floated was a bit rude, he should have just been told he was eating in the Chief's mess rather than lied to, but I see no reason why the tradition should end. However, I'm just a dirty civilian so my opinion doesn't count.






 

dang double tap

They are Ships not boats
And I would love to see the enlisted food improve enough to have the O's eat with them (Ex Enlisted of course)


As a side note
I had a friend on the ship doing Mess duty
he ask me if I liked all the shrimp he peeled
I said What Shrimp?

It had all gone to the O's

That's why Ships are still segregated

The food is basically all the same now, for the last several years.  Quality of food has nothing to do with it.  The CSC runs all of them –– he's not going to give the O's better food than his enlisted guys get anyway...

I know we do things different in the Army and I really don't understand the separation deal.  But if that's been a long standing Navy tradition,  then leave it be.  The Navy has operated just fine all these years,  why fuck it up now?

SERGEANT MAJOR’S LETTER

As the command sergeant major for Joint Task Force-Haiti, I am humbled and proud to represent all the soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and Coast Guards men serving in support of Operation Unified Response.

I have served aboard many ships in my more than 30 years in the Marine Corps. I am very familiar with the century-old tradition of segregating the mess between officers and enlisted on the ship.

It’s time for a change. It’s time the Navy abolishes this tradition.

Recently, I accompanied the commander of the JTF-Haiti, Army Lt. Gen. Ken Keen, to a senior leaders conference on one of our ships. The purpose of the gathering of leaders was to discuss lessons learned and lay the foundation for the way ahead. A day before the conference, I had been asked by officers aboard the ship to join the enlisted service members on the ship. I didn’t. Instead, I ate dinner with my commander and the other flag and senior officers.

During my career, I have dined with numerous flag officers and dignitaries, but this is the first time I’ve ever felt like a “second class” leader.

I have served with both the Army and Air Force over my career, and neither of these branches of service practices this separation. The benefits I see of breaking bread together with officers and enlisted is that it builds cohesion and contributes to the esprit de corps of the unit.

Today, I serve because I love being a Marine. I get the satisfaction of knowing that every day I have the opportunity to make an impact on the life of a future leader. But as a senior enlisted leader at U.S.

Southern Command and JTF-Haiti, I have the responsibility to all those I lead and represent to stand up and voice my concerns when I feel a correction is needed, or an injustice is being committed.

This tradition of segregating the mess is not in keeping with our American values; it’s time the Navy abolishes this age-old tradition and allows all sailors and Marines, officers and enlisted, aboard the ship to dine as one. We are all warriors and brothers-in-arms; break down this barrier that symbolizes segregation and division. It’s time to make this tradition a thing of the past.

Sgt. Maj. Louis Espinal

U.S. Southern Command/Joint Task Force-Haiti

Considering how proud Marines are of their traditions this seems pretty silly to badmouth and question the Navy's...

Familiarity breads contempt.

My Translation:



The chiefs would prefer to talk about how to fix people who are fuck ups without having to wonder about if Seaman Jones or Ensign Doe or the people who served with them heard them talking about what a fuck up they are.



ETA:





Wouldn't he have dined in the Chief's mess? I wonder what they'd think about being told they should feel like 'second class' leaders. I was once led to believe (not uniformed Navy btw) that being invited to eat with them when you weren't one was a Big Deal.

That's certainly part of it.

It's not that the officers didn't want the SOUTHCOM Sergeant Major dining with them, it's that they were dishonest and basically lied to the Chief of Staff to keep him from doing so. I dunno why the Navy does things the way it does, but in the Army, most senior officers I've known would rather eat with their enlisted than their junior officers.

Is it common to have the separated dining areas at Naval stations too?  At Souda there were partitioned areas that were always empty for officers and chiefs.  Our officers and senior NCOs just sat with us.

That's reason enough, although the CMC's explanation was very good as well.



I think that the ship where there is a single mess and even E4 have staterooms will somehow manage to accomplish the mission though. Of course, those are considerably smaller crews.... was it the LCS or something like that? I can't remember, I just guard them.




 

The officer/elnlisted messes don't bother me, but officers should have to clean their own fucking ward rooms...

THAT was always bullshit in my mind...

Shore duty is different, our Galley has a separate area for E7 and above, but for the most part we sit with our junior guys, as do the officers, unless there's some kind of function going on.  The Chiefs' Mess on the ship is more than just a place to eat –– as is the wardroom.

You'll never get me to disagree with that.

LCS is mostly E6 and up crew –– it's going to be a significantly different dynamic than any other ship.

we get this on submarines as well (which are boats )

the officers had their wardroom, the chiefs ate with the rest of the enlisted but had their own table. E1-E6 had to ask permission from the chiefs to eat there, and that was only when there was no room anywhere else.

if you are going to complain about this, why not bring up berthing as well. Is the captain going to give up his stateroom?

with rank and responsibility comes certain privilege.

Agreed.  Marines follow many naval traditions whether on board ship or not, and I believe this is one of them.  Every time I ate in a chow hall on a Marine base, it was with Marines of similar rank.  We had separate chow halls for junior enlisted and NCOs.  Officers stayed in "officer country."  Just the way it was, and I never thought twice about it, and it doesn't bother me now.  Hard to believe that the Sgt Maj was shocked and offended by this.



 

Isnt that why you have conference rooms and the a like?

What logical point is there to having 3 different mess facilities aboard a ship?(junior enlist/chief/O)  Doesnt that quite a bit more complexity when you have to have 3 different galleys and everything that goes with them?  A bigger wtf to me that the Navy does is having FAPing out junior sailors and having them clean O/Chiefs heads and what not.  How the fuck that isnt degrading is just wrong is beyond me.

Thanks chief.  The way the Navy treats its chiefs is rather interesting from the outside.  Not bad, just foreign.

Normally he would have.  He was probably invited to –– and then decided he didn't want to.  It sounds to me like he's like a few very senior enlisted I know who begin to feel they're entitled to be treated like officers because they spend a lot of time with them.

ETA:  Being invited to the Chiefs' Mess is a big deal.  The only people outside Navy E7s that we generally will allow to be initiated are Marine Gunnys.

Most if not all Naval shore based dining facilities are for Enlisted only.
Some have a Chiefs mess set aside.

When I was in Antarctica the chow hall had just gone from being run by a military/civilian mix to an all civilian run.
The chow hall had been separated into Enlisted and Officers sides, when we got there in '92 the civilians had removed the officer / enlisted signs.

There were a few officers who were butt-hurt over this, after a while it became accepted.
We went out of our way to sit with the officers.

As a former enlisted, I think the SGM should shut his pie hole.  Officers are officers and enlisted are enlisted.  Tradition needs to be upheld if and when possible to make the distinction continue.

They might as well get rid of that tradition, they already allow gays.  If they want to keep the tradition, then they need to segregate the homos and heteros.

The Mess aboard ship works just fine for the Navy from my experience and anyone visiting or embarked aboard the ship should conform to their customs.

It's not how the Marine Corps would run it, but that doesn't mean it's wrong or should be changed.  

Too many of our traditional customs have been whittled away.  Pretty soon none of our services will have any type of "identity".

I wouldn't have wanted to eat with my DIVO. He's a damn SgtMaj, he can eat in the Chief's mess anyway which from what I saw on the Nimitz was way nicer than the wardroom.

Perhaps everyone can share berthing areas as well. Would the Sergeant Major at least concede to the Skipper the choice of top or bottom rack?

Those pretentious ranks make some Sailors feel inferior as well. Perhaps everyone could take turns being the Captain.

Not really.  Having that designated area that the Chiefs "own" is a good thing.  We have that even on shore duty (separate from our galley).

As far as the cleaning, that's just part of the culture –– junior E's do the majority of the cleaning on the ship.  Areas that belong exclusively to people (O's staterooms, Chiefs' berthings, etc), I kind of feel ought to be cleaned by the people who own them.

That's not what midshipman means, nor has it ever meant anything even similar to that.

And many enlisted who are eligible for a commission don't want one.