The Scout, the suspect and the SWAT team Shooting

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Scout, the suspect and the SWAT team Shooting

Posted: 3/18/2002 6:42:16 AM EDT

[url=http://www.sunspot.net/news/custom/guns/bal-te.md.shooting18mar18.story?coll=bal%2Dlocal%2Dheadlines]Updated story[/url]

[b]The Scout, the suspect and the SWAT team
Shooting:[/b]

On March 1, FBI agents had a clear plan to catch a man wanted in a bank robbery. What unfolded was a remarkable series of mix-ups with a near-fatal outcome.

Posted: 3/18/2002 6:57:34 AM EDT

[#1]

In other words, the badge allows for a fudge factor that would ordinarily send anyone else to prison.

What happened that day wasn't terrible.[i]It was GOOD![/i]

Posted: 3/18/2002 7:00:48 AM EDT

[#2]

From the article:

Soon after joining the team, Braga was involved with two other law enforcement officers in the fatal shooting of a murder suspect in Laurel, FBI officials have confirmed. [red]The suspect was not holding a weapon[/red], although investigators said a loaded firearm was nearby. The shooting was ruled justified.

View Quote

Color me unsurprised: The shooter has a history of shooting at unarmed "suspects." The window glass must have thrown off his aim in this case, otherwise Schultz would be dead, not just grievously injured and disfigured.

Posted: 3/18/2002 7:33:02 AM EDT

[#3]

Let's see,

No weapon seen.

Suspect in photo vs person they see (Schultz).

Alleged conflicting orders. Has anyone seen one guy yell "Hands where I can see 'em!!!" While the other says "Get out of the car"? Or, "Get down on the ground" and "Hands in the air"

Wrong vehicle ID (How similar are a Civic and a Grand Am?)

Why did they let the guy get in the car in the first place?

I gotta wonder what the cell phone records will show: whether the informant's battery was really dead or that he completed a call at that time?

Should the fact that no shots were fired at the bank have tempered their response a wee tad?

How are the rest of us going to be safe?

I tend to think that if the local cops had been handling it, the guy would have never come to harm.

The girl is lucky she didn't get waxed, too. The feds are no doubt hammering on her about what she REALLY saw and heard.

Posted: 3/18/2002 7:48:59 AM EDT

[#4]

And don't forget the suspect is more than 10 years older than the man they shot.

Posted: 3/18/2002 8:35:17 AM EDT

[#5]

I'm tired of the victim's having to prove that they didn't do anything wrong. I'm sure he was confused and frightened, wondering what the hell was going on. Even if he didn't follow the agents instructions precisely, that's not a very good reason to shoot a kid in the face! After all that's happened, I'd be freakin' to see a bunch of guys running toward me with FBI on their chests!

Posted: 3/18/2002 12:16:45 PM EDT

[#6]

Sounds to me like the FBI agent has a predisposition to pull the trigger before seeing a weapon. Shoot first and ask questions later.

Here's another thing to consider.
If the premise for determining the suspect was armed and dangerous was based on the gun he used to commit the robbery, and the gun turned out to be a BB gun, and the BB gun he is believed to have been used was recovered, then what was the basis for considering him armed and dangerous? I know, he could have gotten another a gun but by then they know he had used a BB gun.

I have an 18 year old son, and he would literaly be a babbling idiot if he was confronted in this manner. Would they shoot him down like a dog because he would be too shaken to comply with what they yelled at him with guns drawn? Especialy after being forced off the road? I wonder.

Posted: 3/18/2002 12:23:14 PM EDT

[#7]

"Shoot first and ask questions later."

If you or I heard somebody at the range say that, our first thought would certainly be, "What an ignorant idiot! He shouldn't be carrying a weapon!"

Posted: 3/18/2002 2:20:20 PM EDT

[#8]

With his penchant for pulling the trigger, Bang-Bang Braga should be back in the Marines in Afghanistan, not with the FBI on the streets of America.

Posted: 3/18/2002 2:33:15 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
In other words, the badge allows for a fudge factor that would ordinarily send anyone else to prison.

View Quote

And that is the worst part of this whole thing:
If it were you or I who had shot someone under any but the most clear-cut "self-defense against overwhelming odds" sort of scenario, we'd be in jail on an attempted murder charge, not sitting at home collecting a paycheck off the federal tit.

I heard a statistic once to the effect that CHL holders shoot a lot less people by mistake every year than police officers. Does anyone have a link to that, or know what I'm talking about?

Posted: 3/18/2002 2:34:12 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Sounds to me like the FBI agent has a predisposition to pull the trigger before seeing a weapon. Shoot first and ask questions later.

Here's another thing to consider.
If the premise for determining the suspect was armed and dangerous was based on the gun he used to commit the robbery, and the gun turned out to be a BB gun, and the BB gun he is believed to have been used was recovered, then what was the basis for considering him armed and dangerous? I know, he could have gotten another a gun but by then they know he had used a BB gun.

I have an 18 year old son, and he would literaly be a babbling idiot if he was confronted in this manner. Would they shoot him down like a dog because he would be too shaken to comply with what they yelled at him with guns drawn? Especialy after being forced off the road? I wonder.

View Quote

Yes, your son would have been shot. Puts a different spin on the stories you read, doesn't it?

In my case, I would have told my girlfriend to run THEM off the road which I'm sure would have landed more than a mag or two of bullets coming through the car.

Now tell me....What 16 year old girl does not stop for the cops?

These guys have to go. No pension. No benefits.

Posted: 3/18/2002 3:04:10 PM EDT

[#11]

The only sign of hope in the entire article is the following sentence -

“The Harkums are quietly working with Peter G. Angelos' law firm in reviewing their legal options.”

Ah, Peter Angelo - trial lawyer extrodinaire. Affectionately (haha) called the “King of Torts” by the editorial writers of the Wall Street Journal. His firm stands to receive several billion, yes billion, in fees from the tobacco settlement.

I think he’ll be able to fund a pretty extensive pre-trial discovery, and hire first class experts.

He also owns the Baltimore Orioles.

Contributes millions to the democrats, but I might forgive for that if goes full bore on this case.

Mike

Posted: 3/18/2002 3:48:24 PM EDT

[#12]

Highly trained agents?

He just shot one time? I thought it was two to the body one to the head?

Sickening story. Any furtive movements are justified for the feds, but we peons are supposed to just roll over and give up? The kids even thought they were being hijacked!

Who is making the furtive movements? The car forcing you off the road, or you for not giving up instantly?

Highly Trained?!? One officer is telling them to show their hands, the other telling them to get out of the car? What are they supposed to do? What kind of highly trained agent is that?

GRRRR! I know for a fact that if I shot someone because they made a furtive movement, it would not be regarded as a "clean shoot."

Me: I got scared officer because this guy at the gas station LOOKED like a criminal, someone told me he was a criminal, and he moved his hands too fast.

Agent: Oh! Ok, no problem. Happens to us all the time. You're free to go!

TheRedGoat

Posted: 3/18/2002 4:06:51 PM EDT

[#13]

Bang-Bang Braga

View Quote

[uzi]

HAHA! The perfect nickname for this "highly trained agent". If he hears about it he might get a tattooed on his back!

I wish the media would pick up on this story. It was on Fox News when it first happened and nothing since. News of this outrageous act needs to spread, not ignored.

Posted: 3/18/2002 4:13:39 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
These guys have to go. No pension. No benefits.

View Quote

These guys have to go, alright--they need to go to [b][i]PRISON![/b][/i]

Posted: 3/18/2002 4:17:05 PM EDT

[#15]

This story pisses me off more every time I hear about it. Is it really not being covered in the news? I don't watch TV so I don't know.

Seems like the more training I have, the more chance I have of getting away with a TOTAL FUCKUP. This guy should not just lose his job, he should be charged with murder.

So if a team of FBI agents breaks down my door some night because they have the wrong address and I hit a few before they can show that they are FBI, I can at least be sure now that it will be "justified".... Right.

Which brings up a question.... Someone yells at you "Freeze, FBI" or whatever... Would you stop to get shot at? Personally if I were a criminal I would be shouting FBI...

Posted: 3/18/2002 4:26:33 PM EDT

[#16]

Soon after joining the team, Braga was involved with two other law enforcement officers in the fatal shooting of a murder suspect in Laurel, FBI officials have confirmed. The suspect was not holding a weapon, although investigators said a loaded firearm was nearby. The shooting was ruled justified.

...

Agent Braga is an experienced and highly trained agent who acted in accordance with FBI policy.

View Quote

This wasn't his first and it won't be his last.

Posted: 3/19/2002 10:10:29 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Highly trained agents?

GRRRR! I know for a fact that if I shot someone because they made a furtive movement, it would not be regarded as a "clean shoot."

Me: I got scared officer because this guy at the gas station LOOKED like a criminal, someone told me he was a criminal, and he moved his hands too fast.

Agent: Oh! Ok, no problem. Happens to us all the time. You're free to go!

TheRedGoat

View Quote

Ain't it a shame? No one ever said the world was fair, but this sh!t pisses me off too. No, I don't wish I had a "get out of jail free" card like those assholes, I just wish they had to answer to the same laws that I do.

Come to think of it, with all their fvcking training, they ought to be held to a [i][b]higher[/i][/b] standard than we are.

Posted: 3/19/2002 12:33:18 PM EDT

[#18]

"Oh, you guys are just civilians."

"You just don't know how law enforcement works."

"LEO's have have no duty or responsibility..."

Blah, blah, blah.

I just wanted to get all of the apologies/phony justifications out right away.

Where are the apologists now? Still can't defend the indefensible, huh?

Posted: 3/19/2002 4:42:36 PM EDT

[#19]

What are you going to do?

"He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:"

- The Declaration of Independence

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Scout, the suspect and the SWAT team Shooting

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