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Posted: 10/27/2021 8:27:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: The_Beer_Slayer]
This is now the active "shit News links, thanks to BerettaGuy: Originally Posted By BerettaGuy: LINKS TO UKRAINIAN NEWS SOURCES IN ENGLISH Kyiv Post Ukrainian News UKRInform EUROMAIDEN PRESS New Voice of Ukraine Kyiv Independent Ukraine World InterFax Ukraine UATV Ukrainian Journal Official Website of the President of Ukraine Ukrainian Ministry of Defense Save these links. I can't post all the headlines like I've done in the past - too much news and too often. Please @ me with additional stuff to be added here. I don't currently have time to properly curate this thread otherwise. New news link c/o berettaguy: Ukrainian Pravda https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/ Stop fake, anti - disinformation site: https://www.stopfake.org/en/main/ |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:11:58 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Cliff notes? I'm going with junk.  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By GiggleSmith: Meanwhile...... German Leopards for Ukraine: Scrap or Wunderwaffe?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYZfvi0Ab78Cliff notes? I'm going with junk. Originally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Meh, the Leopard I had it's issues; but with the attritional aspect to kind of fight that's fixin' to emerge, it would be very useful to the UA. Leopards were designed as a Cold War defensive tank and are capable enough, since most vehicles in a Russian BTG are not latest-series upgraded MBT's, and what an L7 105mm will do to anything that is not the front glacis area or forward turret of an upgraded T72/T80 series or T90 is downright medieval. It’s better than no tank. Gun too small, armor too light, but more survivable than a Soviet tank of it is perforated, and the sensors and fire control on the latest variants would be better than the bottom half of Russian tanks. And any tank is better than no tank. They’ll probably all be destroyed anyway. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:12:42 AM EDT
[#2]
Direct hit at (1:47)
 ?????????? ??????? - ?????????? ????????? ???????? ??????? ????????? ?? ?? ??????? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:14:31 AM EDT
[#3]
During the liberation of the Chernihiv region, a Ukrainian patrol found an abandoned Russian reconnaissance UAV "Eleron-3". 
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:14:56 AM EDT
[#4]
RT reporting Russian shill 'journalist' Gonzalo Lira is missing.
Link left cold https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsnx5IW7mAE I remember Russia supporting fuckwits here posting vids of him complaining about Ukraine handing out FREE FUCKING GUNS to the people and how irreponsible it was. Members of a firearm loving site promoting Russian complaining about handing out free guns, I though I would never see the day but I witnessed it with my own eyes..... |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:15:47 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: You consider that winning? Yes they have had some wins and took back some of their ground. They have also had some major losses, lost most of their ports, cities are still be leveled, and only now is Russia actually starting to make a big push forward. Russian has what 10x the equipment/forces that Ukraine does and they have lost 10%. That means Russia still has 9x the equipment and forces compared to what Ukraine started with. As long as the rest of the world keeps supplying Ukraine with enough equipment I don't think they should negotiate but if there any delay in that equipment or if it stops then they could lose a lot of ground fast. The supply issues is what doomed all the troops moving on Kyiv. The Russian forces left have a strong and secure supply line behind them. That is a completely different type of war than what we just saw. Russia has been fighting how Russia fights for well over a month. It’s nothing new to this conflict. We saw less of it up by Kyiv but the east has seen it. Manpower is close to parity, edge by some measures to either. Russia has a vehicle advantage but the west is finally sending vehicles. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:16:59 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Trump is falling into the trap that will let the Democrats pound him as a Russian puppet again. “Collusion” charges will get backed up by statements like that, all over again. He’s not falling into a trap,he was bloviating about how Russia should release what it knows about Hunter Biden 3 weeks ago. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:17:12 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wulfmann: That is what the British and French decided to do to Germany in 1919. Let's do that! It worked out so well the last time It’s important to beat someone to the point of national exhaustion, so they know they lost. Then, even if you have to help, restore them enough that they can get past it. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:18:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Cypher15]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Yet people here shit on Trump for urging them to reach an agreement before everyone ends up dead. There is no deal to be had. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:19:33 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Also. Every penny of sized RU assets should be confiscated to pay for the weapons se t to Ukraine If we sell the Yachts we have seized alone, it’s more money in, than we have committed to spend on military aid to Ukraine. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:20:03 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GTLandser: That has to be the second most satisfying clip of the war so far, after that clip of the Ka-52 getting schwacked by a Stinger.  That was probably a Piorun. But the best kills other than that have been Starstreak. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:21:10 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SilverBearX: A "conservative gathering".  Going to "help themselves" to your supplies. I will take things that didn't happen for 1,000 Alex. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SilverBearX: Originally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By grambosc: Originally Posted By RolandofGilead: Originally Posted By Zam18th: Originally Posted By RolandofGilead: Originally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By RogueShot12er: Originally Posted By Tuco22: Can this thread go back to being news and stuff. That'd be great. So like page 10? This is just a Ukraine rah rah thread. Nothing wrong with that just don't expect unbiased information if you are following it. It is what it is. 90% of Arfcom is either indifferent or pro Russia. This is really the only thread that is somewhat pro Ukraine. GD is more pro Russia than my Russian wife. It's pathetic. Damn. Is it really that bad? I've been mostly avoiding it out of fear I'll lose a lot of respect for members or this community. I checked it today after having been only in this thread and immediately regretted it. Yes it's that bad. It's bad, but my local real life acquaintances are even worse. I left a conservative gathering last month over the pro Russia parroting, convinced that at some future point we may come to violence over irreconcilable differences. They basically accused anyone not embracing Team Russia of being hostile, and brainwashed, and implied that during an emergency they'd just come help themselves to our preps. Maybe they were joking, but I now have to consider the possibility that I might have to use lethal force to defend myself and family from them at that point. I've cut off all communications cold, and hopefully they'll just move on now. However, I'm glad to have learned their true colors now instead of after a big SHTF event, when I may have hoped for their help. Damn.  A "conservative gathering". Going to "help themselves" to your supplies. I will take things that didn't happen for 1,000 Alex. Believe what you want. It was a local grassroots group here whose primary mouthpiece is unfortunately apparently ate up with the QAnon nonsense. I've written them off at this point and am starting over with better friends and neighbors who aren't nuts. I should have had better discernment to begin with, but had looked past it because we were supposedly in political agreement. My mistake. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:21:17 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By outofbattery: He’s not falling into a trap,he was bloviating about how Russia should release what it knows about Hunter Biden 3 weeks ago. Biden worked ultimately for Russians and their Ukrainian puppets. Russia doesn’t want that to come out. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:24:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: realwar]
[#13]
Ukrainian Training Video: RPG-76 Komar
 Ukrainian Training Video: RPG-76 Komar Ukrainian Training Video - Stinger MANPADS  Ukrainian Training Video - Stinger MANPADS |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:25:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: atlas176176]
[#14]
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:33:11 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: The goal of most really effective propaganda is to get your to personalize and internalize it. Once their positions become YOUR positions, nothing is harder than admitting you were wrong. Most people will turn backflips justifying why they aren’t wrong even when any reasonable examination shows they are. 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:33:16 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Explain why Russians should sit safely in their cities with no fear, eating warm delicious food and smirking? Perhaps if their families were subjected to the same conditions and danger, then their support of this war would change. If not, oh well. Darn, if we had adopted this approach and bombed German cities in WWII and killed a couple million civilians and hundreds of thousands of their children they would have certainly surrendered by 1943. Oh wait, no hmmm. ugh delete delete delete pay no attention to my post Sure let's stiffen the Russian people's resolve to insist their corrupt demonic leaders that killing every Ukrainian is the only solution even if nuking the world is required. No nation has ever buckled under killing innocents. It only stiffens their resolve as in those who refuse to learn from history are doomed t repeat it |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:33:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: sq40]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: They might have lost 30% of the equipment they allocated to this war. That is different than 30% of the equipment for the entire military. Who else is attacking Russia that they need to defend themselves from? China is friendly to them. Is Mongolia going to invade them? The majority of their boarder can't even be approached. They do barely have a hold on the contest areas, which is why they are regrouping and going to make that a proper war effort with secure supply lines. Their primary goal has always been to take full control of the Sea of Azov which they have pretty much done. That is not Ukraine winning. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Originally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By SWIRE: Originally Posted By vahog: The Ukrainians have no reason to negotiate because they are winning You consider that winning? Yes they have had some wins and took back some of their ground. They have also had some major losses, lost most of their ports, cities are still be leveled, and only now is Russia actually starting to make a big push forward. Russian has what 10x the equipment/forces that Ukraine does and they have lost 10%. That means Russia still has 9x the equipment and forces compared to what Ukraine started with. As long as the rest of the world keeps supplying Ukraine with enough equipment I don't think they should negotiate but if there any delay in that equipment or if it stops then they could lose a lot of ground fast. The supply issues is what doomed all the troops moving on Kyiv. The Russian forces left have a strong and secure supply line behind them. That is a completely different type of war than what we just saw. Russia has a smaller force than Ukraine has, manpower wise, committed to this war. They have lost perhaps 30% of their equipment so far, and Ukraine has a net gain of equipment from this conflict. Russia can only commit so much, they have a whole country to defend, and other oceans to patrol too. The only things Russia has to its advantage are Grads and Migs. The tanks and helicopters are a wash due to portable missiles. Though the map shows a lot of red areas, the Russians only have tenuous holds in areas of that map. They might have lost 30% of the equipment they allocated to this war. That is different than 30% of the equipment for the entire military. Who else is attacking Russia that they need to defend themselves from? China is friendly to them. Is Mongolia going to invade them? The majority of their boarder can't even be approached. They do barely have a hold on the contest areas, which is why they are regrouping and going to make that a proper war effort with secure supply lines. Their primary goal has always been to take full control of the Sea of Azov which they have pretty much done. That is not Ukraine winning. I understand your point. I think they can’t field what they are supposed to have in Ukraine beyond much if what they have. They are fighting in Syria, preparing for an island war with Japan, moving to fend off Finland and Poland (in Belarus). Their estimated strength prior to this conflict; https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.php?country_id=russia 1.35m Personnel 772 fighters 739 bombers 544 attack helicopters 12,420 tanks 3391 grads/mrls 30,000 armored transports/bmps That’s best case, assuming everything is in working order, and not counting navy and nuclear forces. Considering the situation on the ground, they have failing equipment that is poorly maintained due to corruption. Their fighting men are largely untrained or incompetent, and their logistics are terrible. I would be surprised if half their equipment totals are still working and in play or viable. Here are reported losses,  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:34:42 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By THOT_Vaccine:
During the liberation of the Chernihiv region, a Ukrainian patrol found an abandoned Russian reconnaissance UAV "Eleron-3". https://i.postimg.cc/d12jbGqK/FQt-Vk-Dp-WQAUt-DUR.jpg Ebay link please. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:35:48 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wulfmann: Darn, if we had adopted this approach and bombed German cities in WWII and killed a couple million civilians and hundreds of thousands of their children they would have certainly surrendered by 1943. Oh wait, no hmmm. ugh delete delete delete pay no attention to my post Sure let's stiffen the Russian people's resolve to insist their corrupt demonic leaders that killing every Ukrainian is the only solution even if nuking the world is required. No nation has ever buckled under killing innocents. It only stiffens their resolve as in those who refuse to learn from history are doomed t repeat it Why u hate air force mang??? You’re entirely correct. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:36:33 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By realwar: I agree, but in the statement Trump made I feel he is talking directly to Putin. Letting him know where he stands and he's willing to talk rather than fight for years to come and only death on both sides will be realized. You can fight a war for 20-30 years with no winners or you can sit down like men and talk it out. If Trump becomes President again Putin knows Trump would drop HAMMER on him so he would come to the table and negotiate (pull back forces). Meanwhile Ukraine needs to keep fighting hard and drive the orcs out and back into Russia but that doesn't mean Putin would end it there, he could still pull back forces and use tactical nukes on the Ukraine army as they advance closer to Russia's border wiping them all out, then push his forces back into Ukraine and head north to Kiev to take it. Lots of crazy things can happen.. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By realwar: Originally Posted By FrankyRay: Trump needs to go away. Russia needs to be defeated and its people humiliated and ashamed for generations. I agree, but in the statement Trump made I feel he is talking directly to Putin. Letting him know where he stands and he's willing to talk rather than fight for years to come and only death on both sides will be realized. You can fight a war for 20-30 years with no winners or you can sit down like men and talk it out. If Trump becomes President again Putin knows Trump would drop HAMMER on him so he would come to the table and negotiate (pull back forces). Meanwhile Ukraine needs to keep fighting hard and drive the orcs out and back into Russia but that doesn't mean Putin would end it there, he could still pull back forces and use tactical nukes on the Ukraine army as they advance closer to Russia's border wiping them all out, then push his forces back into Ukraine and head north to Kiev to take it. Lots of crazy things can happen.. Trump would negotiate one of his "great" deals so that Ukraine gives up Crimea and eastern Ukraine, no NATO membership, limited US military aid or sales to Ukraine. If agreed to (which I doubt Ukraine would), Trump would then take all sanctions off for Russia. Then Putin would back off, build up his military, and then invade all over again years down the line. Trump is not a genius or miracle worker that his supporters make him out to be. His knowledge of history is laughable especially European history. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:38:40 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iggy1337: Members of a firearm loving site promoting Russian complaining about handing out free guns, I though I would never see the day but I witnessed it with my own eyes..... When you look at the mechanics of the propaganda it isn't really all that startling. 1) Russian GRU dude thinks "Hrm, guns in the hands of just anyone is a little frightening. Let's run with that." Then fires off an email to his shitposters. 2) Most info I've seen says the shitposting crew is actually Chinese using jacked accounts. Chinese guy then posts slightly varying wording of the same message across forums, "News Sites," social media, and even frigging Discord. 3) That shit takes honest effort for tailoring to audiences. Spinning shit like an armed public is an easy sell to someplace like an Scottish knitting forum. If you want to sell it here, you have to include something like "Arming Criminals and psychopaths." It requires an understanding of the audience beyond surface level... and it's almost impossible for some rando Chinese dude to obtain. "Gun Culture" is so far beyond the realm of some Chinese serf's understanding that there's no way for him to put it in the correct context. It's like a deaf person shitposting on a music forum... |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:38:45 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cypher15: There is no deal to be had. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cypher15: Originally Posted By SWIRE: Yet people here shit on Trump for urging them to reach an agreement before everyone ends up dead. There is no deal to be had. My offer.... "Get the fuck out of my country or we will kill every last one of you" |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:39:15 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Orcs are orcs. Sorry you think there are innocent ones. Perhaps you've missed the photos of Ukrainian kids with limbs torn off and dead. Explain why Russians should sit safely in their cities with no fear, eating warm delicious food and smirking? Perhaps if their families were subjected to the same conditions and danger, then their support of this war would change. If not, oh well. https://i.ibb.co/HPYWxrg/IMG-20220419-102329-204.jpg upload images We've all seen the pics and can understand that it's the government and soldiers doing it, not the ones back home, and certainly not the ones who are against this war. We all know you are a very tough guy, do you really have to repeat this bullshit every 10 pages? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:40:36 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Stretchman: When we do it they call it genocide. When they do it, and the battle of Britain comes to mind, and the Blitzkrieg, it's incidental to close combat. In 6 years of war 52,000 British civilians were killed by all means of attacks on British soil. No one has all the numbers but as many as 2 million German civilians were killed by allied (US and UK) in WWII It is possible 10 times as many German children were killed than all British civilians combined Now in fairness because Germany built a tactical air force to support its military it never had the means to wage a war of terror on civilians and Nazis being Nazis if they had that capability they would have been just as heartless and ruthless as the allies but they did not intentionally build a military arm specifically to slaughter civilians like the US and UK did Should we be proud of that? |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:42:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BerettaGuy]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Yet people here shit on Trump for urging them to reach an agreement before everyone ends up dead. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Originally Posted By Prime:
Yet people here shit on Trump for urging them to reach an agreement before everyone ends up dead. Trump lacks understanding of the history/politics of both nations and his NYC bullshit business deal tactics don't work here. Putin and Russia want all of Ukraine and for Ukrainian ethnicity and culture and history to go away. This conflict is hundreds of years older than the USA. Your comment makes ZERO sense to anyone who knows what is really going on. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:44:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: sq40]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wulfmann: In 6 years of war 52,000 British civilians were killed by all means of attacks on British soil. No one has all the numbers but as many as 2 million German civilians were killed by allied (US and UK) in WWII It is possible 10 times as many German children were killed than all British civilians combined Now in fairness because Germany built a tactical air force to support its military it never had the means to wage a war of terror on civilians and Nazis being Nazis if they had that capability they would have been just as heartless and ruthless as the allies but they did not intentionally build a military arm specifically to slaughter civilians like the US and UK did Should we be proud of that? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wulfmann: Originally Posted By Stretchman: When we do it they call it genocide. When they do it, and the battle of Britain comes to mind, and the Blitzkrieg, it's incidental to close combat. In 6 years of war 52,000 British civilians were killed by all means of attacks on British soil. No one has all the numbers but as many as 2 million German civilians were killed by allied (US and UK) in WWII It is possible 10 times as many German children were killed than all British civilians combined Now in fairness because Germany built a tactical air force to support its military it never had the means to wage a war of terror on civilians and Nazis being Nazis if they had that capability they would have been just as heartless and ruthless as the allies but they did not intentionally build a military arm specifically to slaughter civilians like the US and UK did Should we be proud of that? Aside from some firebombing raids, the bulk of allied bombing was aimed at military infrastructure. The technology at the time did not have precision, and due flak, large bomber forces were required and dropped under duress. Half of those airmen never came home. There was domestic outrage after Dresden, and we were deeply scorned for it. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:45:13 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By realwar: Probably bought a bunch of washers to flip in Russia.  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By realwar: Originally Posted By glklvr: Hopefully they're all empty. Probably bought a bunch of washers to flip in Russia. 
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:45:27 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Trump is falling into the trap that will let the Democrats pound him as a Russian puppet again. “Collusion” charges will get backed up by statements like that, all over again. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By FrankyRay: Originally Posted By rca2222: Did this get posted yet? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/176088/FQqPzxWWUAYrGXc_jpg-2354354.JPG Trump needs to go away. Russia needs to be defeated and its people humiliated and ashamed for generations. Trump is falling into the trap that will let the Democrats pound him as a Russian puppet again. “Collusion” charges will get backed up by statements like that, all over again. Trump isn't falling into a trap. Trump is stupid when it comes to this conflict and he really doesn't give a shit if Putin wins, he only cares that he can convince his followers and other voters that he has the solution and that this war would never have happened had he been president. IT'S ALL BULLSHIT. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:46:19 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BerettaGuy: Trump lacks understanding of the history/politics of both nations and his NYC bullshit business deal tactics don't work here. Putin and Russia want all of Ukraine and for Ukrainian ethnicity and culture and history to go away. This conflict is hundreds of years older than the USA. You comment makes ZERO sense to anyone who knows what is really going on. Well to be fair he did pretty good for 4 years. Even stepped in North Korea. No wars started under his admin which puts him at the only President not to start a war during their term. Russia didn't make any moves during his term. I would say that's pretty impressive for just a regular old property developer.. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:46:22 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryWho is shelling who here? Good accurate fire so I hope its orcs getting splashed. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:48:20 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amanbearpig: Advocating for terrorism against innocent women and children is sick. In war bad and terrible things happen to many innocent people. Some wars are foolish, some worthwhile, yet all have innocent people suffering. Setting out with your specific goal being terror attacks on women and children on the other hand is disgusting. If your desire is to emulate ISIS and bin Laden, you are 100% in the wrong. That's not a 'difference of opinion', that's straight fact. What would you call the tactics the Russians have been using, if not terrorism?  Still, I disagree with Cryo. There are plenty of legitimate Russian military targets within Ukraine, and the Ukrainians don't need the negative PR, or the inevitable Euros falling all over themselves to be "neutral", and investigate and try Ukrainians crimes in turn some day. It's wrong (duh), but almost more importantly under their circumstances, it's also a waste of resources. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:49:46 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wulfmann: No nation has ever buckled under killing innocents. It only stiffens their resolve as in those who refuse to learn from history are doomed t repeat it Wut? You really couldn't be more wrong. Recent: Japan- WWII Historical: Mongol invasions Punic Wars Roman - Judean wars Spanish conquests Dutch conquests Conquests in general- etc. Take into account starving civilians through sieges and you have a pretty fair portion of all wars. I mean, have you read any history at all? You seem fixated on the fire bombing of Germany (which you're wrong about too) so much so that I have to wonder what stake you have in the game? Former family or what? |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:50:48 AM EDT
[#33]
Russian defense minister blames US and West for Ukraine bloodshed
 Russian defence minister blames US and West for Ukraine bloodshed |
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USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:51:07 AM EDT
[#34]
kino?
 ????????? ????????? |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:52:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BerettaGuy]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: I must have missed the part where Trump told Ukraine to surrender.  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Originally Posted By Piratepast40: Originally Posted By SWIRE: Yet people here shit on Trump for urging them to reach an agreement before everyone ends up dead. You're missing the part where all property will be seized and the citizens left alive will become forced labor. As soon as the Russian military recovers, they'll move on the rest of Ukraine and then into eastern Europe. We've seen it before and surrender to Russia is not going to turn out well. I agree that the loss of life is horrible and I pray every day for it to end. But I also know the battle against evil cannot be won by capitulation. I must have missed the part where Trump told Ukraine to surrender. Okay, you love Trump and think he is the man for the job right? He did pretty much say that Ukraine should surrender in the past (and that will be his key "bargaining" point if someone presses him now on what his "deal" would be.. Let's take a closer look: Trump is some savior in the Ukrainian crisis? When Trump's "best people" Paul Manafort was the Kremlin-paid campaign manager for the communist party- lite's Yanukovych, which was Putin's Plan A to take Ukraine internally, Yanukovych "replaced" Pro-USA Yuschenko and began to start Russian reforms like: change Ukrainian schoolbooks to reflect Russian history, make Russian an official language equal to Ukrainian, stopped ALL Ukrainian military modernization projects, and the big one: pushed to allow Russian troops to be station on multiple Ukrainian military bases - that was the last straw which got him thrown out (he fled to Russia - big surprise). Manafort then went to the Republican National Convention in Cleveland and instead of opening up the meeting with getting Trump nominated, he starts off with proposing that the Republican foreign policy on Ukraine getting heavy weapons go from favorable to unfavorable. Trump pardoned him by the way... So know we are witnessing Putin's desperate Plan B. Trump was/is a DUNCE when it comes to foreign affairs and knowledge of history especially history of Europe yet people on this thread keep bringing it up that he would be some kind of great leader for the Ukrainian crisis. If anyone thinks that Trump would be be the leader for the Russian invasion of Ukraine (and I'm not saying that leftist Biden is), then they must be as dumb as Trump is especially after reading this interview Trump did with Fox News' Eric Bolling in 2014 (his recent comments last week were equally as stupid): Regarding Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Trump said Putin's action was "so smart." “Well, he’s done an amazing job of taking the mantle," Trump said of Russian president Vladimir Putin in an interview with Fox News' Eric Bolling. "And he’s taken it away from the president, and you look at what he’s doing. And so smart. When you see the riots in a country because they’re hurting the Russians, okay, ‘We’ll go and take it over.’ And he really goes step by step by step, and you have to give him a lot of credit." "Interestingly, I own the Miss Universe pageant," Trump added. "We just left Moscow. He could not have been nicer. He was so nice and so everything. But you have to give him credit that what he’s doing for that country in terms of their world prestige is very strong." Trump also said in the interview that "the people of Crimea, from what I've heard, would rather be with Russia than where they were." Trump's comments made in May 2014 speech to the National Press Club: “And another country, wants to come in and join—they love Russia," he said then. "They say—now we send in our pollsters, we say, ‘That’s not true.’ Well, you know, guess what? They want to form with Russia. How the hell are we involved? Okay, we’re involved in all of this. Isn’t Europe supposed to be involved in this?” And for all Trump didn't do anything for the 2A ( he did hurt the 2A), yet some people here just can't get enough of him fixing the world. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:52:49 AM EDT
[#36]
WW2 wasn’t won by killing civilians or destroying industrial capacity with bombing. Nations didn’t give up due to losses. Even Japan, though that’s worth a huge thread of its own.
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:52:55 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Who is shelling who here? Good accurate fire so I hope its orcs getting splashed. Ukrainian army is shelling Russian positions. Most likely with 152mm artillery. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:53:06 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wulfmann: That is what the British and French decided to do to Germany in 1919. Let's do that! It worked out so well the last time Completely different circumstances.
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:53:59 AM EDT
[#39]
Different how?
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:54:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TxRabbitBane]
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TxAggieA-Batt: That's part of my issue with this language. Personally I think it's probably in the best interest of Ukraine to work out a peace deal. But it's not my call. We aren't the ones paying the ultimate price defending our homeland. The issue of what, if anything to give up to secure peace is up to the people of Ukraine alone. My other issue with trumps statement is what was left unsaid. He talked about the conflict like it was some unavoidable tragedy rather than laying the blame at Putins feet for being the asshole. Just give the Russians what they want, and there will be peace… until they want something else. Anything they give up is never coming back. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:55:42 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIPPO: Very good write-up and analysis of the game at play sourced from Arestovych.
Thanks for sharing this. It was definitely worth reading. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:57:07 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Glock63: Completely different circumstances. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Glock63: Originally Posted By Wulfmann: That is what the British and French decided to do to Germany in 1919. Let's do that! It worked out so well the last time Completely different circumstances. Outcome will still probably be about the same. If/when they lose do you think they'll accept it and move on? |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:57:58 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BerettaGuy: Okay, you love Trump and think he is the man for the job right? He did pretty much say that Ukraine should surrender in the past (and that will be his key "bargaining" point if someone presses him now on what his "deal" would be.. Let's take a closer look: Trump is some savior in the Ukrainian crises? When Trump's "best people" Paul Manafort was the Kremlin-paid campaign manager for the communist party- lite's Yanukovych, which was Putin's Plan A to take Ukraine internally, Yanukovych "replaced" Pro-USA Yuschenko and began to start Russian reforms like: change Ukrainian schoolbooks to reflect Russian history, make Russian an official language equal to Ukrainian, stopped ALL Ukrainian military modernization projects, and the big one: pushed to allow Russian troops to be station on multiple Ukrainian military bases - that was the last straw which got him thrown out (he fled to Russia - big surprise). Manafort then went to the Republican National Convention in Cleveland and instead of opening up the meeting with getting Trump nominated, he starts off with proposing that the Republican foreign policy on Ukraine getting heavy weapons go from favorable to unfavorable. Trump pardoned him by the way... So know we are witnessing Putin's desperate Plan B. Trump was/is a DUNCE when it comes to foreign affairs and knowledge of history especially history of Europe yet people on this thread keep bringing it up that he would be some kind of great leader for the Ukrainian crisis. If anyone thinks that Trump would be be the leader for the Russian invasion of Ukraine (and I'm not saying that leftist Biden is), then they must be as dumb as Trump is especially after reading this interview Trump did with Fox News' Eric Bolling in 2014 (his recent comments last week were equally as stupid): Regarding Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Trump said Putin's action was "so smart." “Well, he’s done an amazing job of taking the mantle," Trump said of Russian president Vladimir Putin in an interview with Fox News' Eric Bolling. "And he’s taken it away from the president, and you look at what he’s doing. And so smart. When you see the riots in a country because they’re hurting the Russians, okay, ‘We’ll go and take it over.’ And he really goes step by step by step, and you have to give him a lot of credit." "Interestingly, I own the Miss Universe pageant," Trump added. "We just left Moscow. He could not have been nicer. He was so nice and so everything. But you have to give him credit that what he’s doing for that country in terms of their world prestige is very strong." Trump also said in the interview that "the people of Crimea, from what I've heard, would rather be with Russia than where they were." Trump's comments made in May 2014 speech to the National Press Club: “And another country, wants to come in and join—they love Russia," he said then. "They say—now we send in our pollsters, we say, ‘That’s not true.’ Well, you know, guess what? They want to form with Russia. How the hell are we involved? Okay, we’re involved in all of this. Isn’t Europe supposed to be involved in this?” And for all Trump didn't do anything for the 2A ( he did hurt the 2A), yet some people here just can't get enough of him fixing the world. Last time I checked Russia invaded the Ukraine zero times under Trump. Russia took Crimea under Biden/Obama and now invade Ukraine under Biden again. Biden fucked up Afghanistan pretty well he basically showed the US had no resolve. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:58:34 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iggy1337: RT reporting Russian shill 'journalist' Gonzalo Lira is missing. Link left cold https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsnx5IW7mAE I remember Russia supporting fuckwits here posting vids of him complaining about Ukraine handing out FREE FUCKING GUNS to the people and how irreponsible it was. Members of a firearm loving site promoting Russian complaining about handing out free guns, I though I would never see the day but I witnessed it with my own eyes..... And you can read all about that phenomenon here: Conservative Sympathy for Russia in Ukraine War an Exercise in Cognitive Dissonance: How one of the greatest examples of why a populace should own military weapons is getting ignored by some on the right.  AND HERE: Left AND Right Showing Cognitive Dissonance on Ukraine and U.S. Gun Rights 
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Posted: 4/19/2022 12:04:43 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Yobro512: The mineral rights for crimea and the azov sea are auctioned off to Exxon Mobil, shell, Aramco, etc. Russia and Ukraine split it the money. That’s the only one I’d consider because unless one surrenders that area will never be secure to get minerals out got he ground. Both need to agree for anything to be done. I've heard about this negotiating tactic before and think it's worked well in liberal cities. People are held up at gunpoint at an ATM and negotiate with the mugger for 1/2 of what's available instead of killing you and taking it all. Pretty smart. Are you a UN representative? |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 12:05:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Russian civillians should be safe while Ukrainians suffer? Total war is total war. Total war is being waged on Ukraine. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Originally Posted By amanbearpig: Do you even listen to yourself? Russian civillians should be safe while Ukrainians suffer? Total war is total war. Total war is being waged on Ukraine. Whatever small emotional consolation it would be to some to lash out at Russian civilians, it's a loser for the Ukrainians. Right now they are fighting for their country in their country against legitimate military targets. This is a huge boost to their support levels on the international stage, and that is a big part of what drives the weaponry flowing in and the willingness of Western nations to suffer financial hardship as a result of sanctions on Russia. Basically, chess not checkers. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 12:06:02 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By klinc: "May 9 is a prominent holiday on the Russian calendar, a day the country marks the Nazi surrender in World War II with a huge parade of troops and weaponry across Red Square in front of the Kremlin." Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By klinc: Originally Posted By AeroEngineer: Originally Posted By Zhukov: Originally Posted By Prime:
Yeah, not surprised by that whatsoever. What's the driving the May 9th deadline? "May 9 is a prominent holiday on the Russian calendar, a day the country marks the Nazi surrender in World War II with a huge parade of troops and weaponry across Red Square in front of the Kremlin." Makes total sense now. Thanks! |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 12:07:57 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: You consider that winning? Yes they have had some wins and took back some of their ground. They have also had some major losses, lost most of their ports, cities are still be leveled, and only now is Russia actually starting to make a big push forward. Russian has what 10x the equipment/forces that Ukraine does and they have lost 10%. That means Russia still has 9x the equipment and forces compared to what Ukraine started with. As long as the rest of the world keeps supplying Ukraine with enough equipment I don't think they should negotiate but if there any delay in that equipment or if it stops then they could lose a lot of ground fast. The supply issues is what doomed all the troops moving on Kyiv. The Russian forces left have a strong and secure supply line behind them. That is a completely different type of war than what we just saw. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Originally Posted By vahog: The Ukrainians have no reason to negotiate because they are winning You consider that winning? Yes they have had some wins and took back some of their ground. They have also had some major losses, lost most of their ports, cities are still be leveled, and only now is Russia actually starting to make a big push forward. Russian has what 10x the equipment/forces that Ukraine does and they have lost 10%. That means Russia still has 9x the equipment and forces compared to what Ukraine started with. As long as the rest of the world keeps supplying Ukraine with enough equipment I don't think they should negotiate but if there any delay in that equipment or if it stops then they could lose a lot of ground fast. The supply issues is what doomed all the troops moving on Kyiv. The Russian forces left have a strong and secure supply line behind them. That is a completely different type of war than what we just saw. The military industrial complex will work overtime to provide Ukraine with weapons, and the West will provide them because Ukraine is grinding Russia into the ground in a war of attrition. When the Russians are destroyed, Ukraine will be built up as a Western force with modern equipment. Meanwhile Russia will struggle to produce more shit or buy shit from China. The real question is what is Ukraine's risk tolerance? How many people will they be willing to see die? How many cities, towns and villages leveled? From the looks of it... ALL of them if necessary. I admire their tenacity. They are hard people, so hard that the "hardest" among us seem to think them foolish and encourage them to make concessions. The reality is they are doing that because they are afraid of a possible spillover to them - higher energy prices, food shortages, possible nuclear war. They don't give a shit about the Ukrainian people. The Ukrainians have to think of themselves first because nobody else will... just like Israel. They make decisions in their interests, as well they should, and they know full well international support only lasts so long as those offering the support deem there to be some benefit. In this case, the gelding of Putin. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 12:11:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Glock63]
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN: Outcome will still probably be about the same. If/when they lose do you think they'll accept it and move on? I dont give a fuck. They won't have the means to rebuild. Whats your alternative? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 12:13:07 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By anono: I mean, have you read any history at all? You seem fixated on the fire bombing of Germany (which you're wrong about too) so much so that I have to wonder what stake you have in the game? Former family or what? My father was at Pearl Harbor on 12/7/41 My Uncle (Maternal) served n the USS Missouri witnessing the surrender My Uncle (Paternal) was killed on a mission over Germany, B17 crewman My other uncle was run out of Britain for knocking up young ladies so not sure I am proud I am well read and have traveled to research events for which I will not discuss However, I study history in a different way. I try as best as possible to be objective. Obviously some are offended by that as you have shown Continue with we are good they are bad hurrah for our side |
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