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Posted: 9/1/2023 10:56:01 AM EDT
 How an AR-15 Can Send You to Prison |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 10:59:28 AM EDT
[#1]
No surprise here
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:02:51 AM EDT
[#2]
I saw the research James is discussing some years ago after Tom Givens pointed me to the author. I exchanged some very pleasant conversation with Meyers about the research.
It's staggering to read. The gender thing he pointed to is particularly staggering, as women who used an AR15 were judged more harshly than men...and that was done most stridently by male jurors we would categorize as "progressive". In other words, soy boys hate AR15's but if you have the audacity to have a vagina and use an AR15 they want to persecute you to the fullest extent possible. Once again showing that "male feminists" are almost always woman hating psychopaths. The bottom line for everybody is to understand that no matter how nice you are, no matter how well intentioned, no matter how justified you believe yourself to be, you are the villain in somebody's story and it's entirely possible for lawyers to use the facts of a case to create a narrative in which you're a fucking monster. The research didn't even look at lawyers and was just bare facts of the case and the demonization of "assault weapons" was so effective that just the description and sight of the weapon made a bunch of people who all think of themselves as decent and moral throw the book at somebody because it just looked meaner. It hasn't gotten any prettier in America since this research was originally done. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:05:37 AM EDT
[#3]
I've been assured by the Wisdom of GD that the weapon you use in a defensive shooting is irrelevant and to suggest otherwise is FUDDLORE!
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:08:49 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been assured by the Wisdom of GD that the weapon you use in a defensive shooting is irrelevant and to suggest otherwise is FUDDLORE! "A good shoot is a good shoot." isn't really as accurate as people would like to believe. I wish it was...but nothing in the legal system is that cut and dry. I mean, hell...we're living through a national lesson in how far motivated people will take lawfare. Don't think it stops with orange man. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:11:39 AM EDT
[#5]
I used to have my AR for home defense but put it away a long time ago. Mainly because I knew it would be gone for good if I had to use it, even if I was not charged. This just adds another negative.
It’s terrible this is now the norm, but with the AR being demonized and banned in so many places it’s inevitable. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:14:55 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I saw the research James is discussing some years ago after Tom Givens pointed me to the author. I exchanged some very pleasant conversation with Meyers about the research. It's staggering to read. The gender thing he pointed to is particularly staggering, as women who used an AR15 were judged more harshly than men...and that was done most stridently by male jurors we would categorize as "progressive". In other words, soy boys hate AR15's but if you have the audacity to have a vagina and use an AR15 they want to persecute you to the fullest extent possible. Once again showing that "male feminists" are almost always woman hating psychopaths. The bottom line for everybody is to understand that no matter how nice you are, no matter how well intentioned, no matter how justified you believe yourself to be, you are the villain in somebody's story and it's entirely possible for lawyers to use the facts of a case to create a narrative in which you're a fucking monster. The research didn't even look at lawyers and was just bare facts of the case and the demonization of "assault weapons" was so effective that just the description and sight of the weapon made a bunch of people who all think of themselves as decent and moral throw the book at somebody because it just looked meaner. It hasn't gotten any prettier in America since this research was originally done. Could this study be used as a basis for a motion in limine (sp?) to exclude the type of weapon from evidence at trial? |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:15:29 AM EDT
[#7]
In reality, blasting someone in the torso at 5 yards with a 12Ga shotgun w/ 00 buck is more acceptable than using 3 or 4, 5.56 rounds?
 Attached FileETA: STIGMA HOW DOES IT WORK? The AR15 doesn't have to be banned, just make it impossible to justify it's use in SD |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:17:12 AM EDT
[#8]
Can't watch at work but have a question.
Does this only include self defense uses where the DA decided to prosecute? What's the mix of cases where the DA prosecuted versus clears a person or declines to file charges? I'll try to remember to watch at lunch. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:17:50 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Could this study be used as a basis for a motion in limine (sp?) to exclude the type of weapon from evidence at trial? I'm not a lawyer...but if you end up on trial for committing an act of violence against another person the weapon used is a central piece of evidence. I imagine it would be awful difficult to keep the weapon itself out of court. If you're in that kind of case, odds are you are dealing with a shitbird prosecutor (and they are legion) which means a judge is highly likely to side with them on pretty much everything, because that's how shitbird prosecutors get made in the first place. So while it may be theoretically possible I don't think it's likely to be a successful strategy. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:19:00 AM EDT
[#10]
Truck gun is a Remington 870 Tac for just that reason. 50+ rounds of buck.
But…You only pay for the first one. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:19:47 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "A good shoot is a good shoot." isn't really as accurate as people would like to believe. I wish it was...but nothing in the legal system is that cut and dry. I mean, hell...we're living through a national lesson in how far motivated people will take lawfare. Don't think it stops with orange man. You're exactly right. Those people assume some completely rational, factual analysis is being conducted to determine the "good shoot" and overlooking that the process is filled with people with their own biases, agendas, emotions and beliefs. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:20:21 AM EDT
[#12]
So "meat from the bone" is more acceptable than turning ones lung cavity into grape jelly?
(Didn't watch the video) |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:21:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In reality, blasting someone in the torso at 5 yards with a 12Ga shotgun w/ 00 buck is more acceptable than using 3 or 4, 5.56 rounds? /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/fVw58iP-49.gif Quote HistoryQuoted: In reality, blasting someone in the torso at 5 yards with a 12Ga shotgun w/ 00 buck is more acceptable than using 3 or 4, 5.56 rounds? /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/fVw58iP-49.gif If people believe that, then absolutely. The first thing to understand about trials is that objective fact has little bearing on them. It's two competing narratives being told to people who don't know any better and/or people who actually have an axe to grind. And don't expect judges and prosecutors to act according to their ethical obligations because often they don't in politically charged cases. And throw in the media on top of it. Lots of people here were giddy watching Alex Jones get railroaded don't realize they're literally cheerleading for this kind of shit, too. ETA: STIGMA HOW DOES IT WORK? The AR15 doesn't have to be banned, just make it impossible to justify it's use in SD Bingo. "Sure, you can own one. But if you actually use it good luck with a jury!" |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:21:51 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can't watch at work but have a question. Does this only include self defense uses where the DA decided to prosecute? What's the mix of cases where the DA prosecuted versus clears a person or declines to file charges? I'll try to remember to watch at lunch. They conducted mock trials with the exact same set of circumstances, the only factor that changed was the weapon used. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:24:03 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does this only include self defense uses where the DA decided to prosecute? It's legal research done to determine if the weapon involved in a case colored the juror's interpretation of guilt and punishment based solely on the weapon. The shooting presented to the jury is a questionable one, but it's designed to be that way to see if the juror's prejudices will impact their determination of guilt and punishment. It found that when the scenario involved an AR the homeowner was convicted much more often and sentenced more harshly than with a Mini-14. And alluded to in the video but not explicitly discussed, the effect was even worse if a woman used an AR15. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:25:35 AM EDT
[#16]
Honestly that's to be expected.
It's a risk I'll run all the same. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:25:53 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So "meat from the bone" is more acceptable than turning ones lung cavity into grape jelly? (Didn't watch the video) Joe Biden told people to buy a shotgun. I've had people come to one of my shotgun classes based on that. I've had people come to one of my shotgun classes because they live in an area that actually voted for Joe Biden and their potential jury pool would find the shotgun acceptable. (Baltimore, DC, etc) It defies any sort of logic or reason...but human beings do not run on logic or reason. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:26:32 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to have my AR for home defense but put it away a long time ago. Mainly because I knew it would be gone for good if I had to use it, even if I was not charged. This just adds another negative. It’s terrible this is now the norm, but with the AR being demonized and banned in so many places it’s inevitable. What’s your life worth? What about your loved ones? Mines worth more than the cost of any AR. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:28:21 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The research didn't even look at lawyers and was just bare facts of the case and the demonization of "assault weapons" was so effective that just the description and sight of the weapon made a bunch of people who all think of themselves as decent and moral throw the book at somebody because it just looked meaner. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:28:29 AM EDT
[#20]
All very intuitive, no surprises at all.
It's funny, I'm opened that M4/1301 thread this morning, looked at those two shotguns and though...hmm, the Beretta would be kind of scary to a non-gun person, but the Benelli screams tactical overload, and I can see a prosecutor parading it around in front of a jury. By the time you've hung a light and a red-dot, there would be absolutely no doubt in the mind of all those soccer moms jurors that you couldn't wait to shoot someone with it. In the off-season I keep a camo'd Browning BPS duck gun with a spare barrel cut down to the legal minimum. The light is a very old Malkoff mod'd Surefire 6P, and it has a side saddle, but overall it pretty much looks like any homeowner here might keep for bumps in the night. For exactly that reason. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:36:08 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If people believe that, then absolutely. The first thing to understand about trials is that objective fact has little bearing on them. It's two competing narratives being told to people who don't know any better and/or people who actually have an axe to grind. And don't expect judges and prosecutors to act according to their ethical obligations because often they don't in politically charged cases. And throw in the media on top of it. This, I think that is lost on a lot of people, that when the government is arguing in court, their arguments are not meant to be sensible in the conversation or based on the facts, they size the jury up like a groomer, and then ask witnesses the questions they think will elicit a response to boost their narrative. That's how feds and DAs argue. No understanding of the subject matter needed, they just need to have enough social intuition to sense when someone is stepping on their narrative, then ask accusatory questions, and that's it. This used to be Kamala Harris's job. Can't see her arguing the real life details, but she could certainly say something like. "That family's pain is because of your actions. Your actions when you picked up that military style weapon, and chose to fire armor piercing rounds into the young aspiring athlete 3 times. blah blah". If you look closely, the guys posting about ukraine like it's their job also use this approach. 
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:37:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Honestly if it’s a factor a semi-competent lawyer and likable firearms expert on your side could change a couple jurors minds on that pretty easily, but it’s good to be aware of the possible bias and address it
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:38:29 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Joe Biden told people to buy a shotgun. I've had people come to one of my shotgun classes based on that. I've had people come to one of my shotgun classes because they live in an area that actually voted for Joe Biden and their potential jury pool would find the shotgun acceptable. (Baltimore, DC, etc) It defies any sort of logic or reason...but human beings do not run on logic or reason. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So "meat from the bone" is more acceptable than turning ones lung cavity into grape jelly? (Didn't watch the video) Joe Biden told people to buy a shotgun. I've had people come to one of my shotgun classes based on that. I've had people come to one of my shotgun classes because they live in an area that actually voted for Joe Biden and their potential jury pool would find the shotgun acceptable. (Baltimore, DC, etc) It defies any sort of logic or reason...but human beings do not run on logic or reason. Similar story with guns like lever actions- they're "legal" in more places and the optics don't look as bad to the uneducated masses of idiotic drones out there. Back when my grandfather was still alive, he traveled around the country towing his camper and he carried a Winchester 94 Trapper .357 in it as it was "legal" most places and as he said, most folks aren't going to think too badly of an old guy with a lever gun (this was before all the "all whites are the devil", racist crap of today). He'd built a couple of hiding places into the camper that were large enough to hide a pistol as well; he was a good Christian, law abiding man, but he was also a 2nd amendment absolutist, especially as he aged and knew he couldn't physically fight anymore. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:46:25 AM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:50:03 AM EDT
[#25]
Don't care. AR15 with a D60 by the nightstand. If someone breaks into my house, I won't be outgunned.
From an optics perspective, I believe that we need more defensive shootings with the AR15 to counter criminal use of the AR15. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:51:18 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What’s your life worth? What about your loved ones? Mines worth more than the cost of any AR. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I used to have my AR for home defense but put it away a long time ago. Mainly because I knew it would be gone for good if I had to use it, even if I was not charged. This just adds another negative. It’s terrible this is now the norm, but with the AR being demonized and banned in so many places it’s inevitable. What’s your life worth? What about your loved ones? Mines worth more than the cost of any AR. I’m pretty sure my ARs are my cheapest rifles if I’m not counting .22s and things like Mosins (and those are getting closer and closer). Hell, I think my cheap SKS is now worth more than some of my ARs. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:55:27 AM EDT
[#27]
Greta says M1911-A1 now, M1911-A1 tomorrow, M1911-A1 forever.
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Posted: 9/1/2023 11:59:34 AM EDT
[#28]
Guess the old chainsaw is gonna have to do then.
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:03:08 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're exactly right. Those people assume some completely rational, factual analysis is being conducted to determine the "good shoot" and overlooking that the process is filled with people with their own biases, agendas, emotions and beliefs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: "A good shoot is a good shoot." isn't really as accurate as people would like to believe. I wish it was...but nothing in the legal system is that cut and dry. I mean, hell...we're living through a national lesson in how far motivated people will take lawfare. Don't think it stops with orange man. You're exactly right. Those people assume some completely rational, factual analysis is being conducted to determine the "good shoot" and overlooking that the process is filled with people with their own biases, agendas, emotions and beliefs. agree -- i always cringe when i hear that 'good shoot' verbiage Yes -- there is good. Yes -- there is bad. There is also a mile of 'gray area' between the two which is open to legal interpretation if a case would go to trial. IANAL and assuming somehow a person will be so righteous that everything will be stacked in your favor is a really bad premise to believe. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:03:14 PM EDT
[#30]
I've been in many courtrooms over the years. All I can say is that the truth rarely sets foot in a court. Mostly, just everyone's version of it.
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:03:39 PM EDT
[#31]
So what if you shoot someone with a mini 14 but are revealed to have 15 PSA kit guns stacked in your closet?
Edit I'm not saying to disregard these studies just to consider the totality of circumstances before buying a cowboy revolver. If I was prosecuted over shooting someone in my house in NY I am sure the gun hating prosecutor would have tried to get in photos of my guns, magazines, info on the classes I had taken if they could find that. He'd probably have a liberal judge who would consider me a MAGA anti vax gun nut and I'd be facing probably a mostly Democrat/or Fudd jury. A competent attorney certainly needs to be aware of those issues and try to defuse them in voir dire |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:04:12 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "A good shoot is a good shoot." isn't really as accurate as people would like to believe. It all depends on how much the jurors hate you, vs how much they hate criminals. Guilt has nothing to do with it. And in Kenosha, AR has nothing to do with it, no matter how hard the jury sweeping persecutor tries to use your gun to instill fear.  |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:15:25 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryVery intriguing and interesting article. A couple remarks. 1) what happened with that "better judged by 12 than carried by 6" thing? If someone is in a life-threatening situation, that person should still choose the weapon that "hurts fewer feelings" instead of the one that will stop the threat? Why does the military always use the most effective weapon, no matter whether if many steps above the enemy's? 2) I was surprised by women getting harsher sentences than men when using firearms. Aren't women quite a bit weaker than men (as even more demonstrated by those trans beating them in recent sports events); therefore, more justified to use a gun to stop an assailant? I agree that this is likely a rhetorical question, since logic and law do not go together, as the article itself mentions. 3) Many events, most of them recent, show that the weapon used, in the end, will not matter since the "laws" will be arbitrarily applied or all charges dropped, depending on who the defendant is. Rule of law is dead in this banana-republic country. Therefore, the choice of weapon should be the one that provides the best outcome, or stopping the threat and keeping the persons defending themselves alive. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:17:59 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:18:13 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been in many courtrooms over the years. All I can say is that the truth rarely sets foot in a court. Mostly, just everyone's version of it. QED |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:22:09 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "A good shoot is a good shoot." isn't really as accurate as people would like to believe. I wish it was...but nothing in the legal system is that cut and dry. I mean, hell...we're living through a national lesson in how far motivated people will take lawfare. Don't think it stops with orange man. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:24:16 PM EDT
[#37]
I posted once that back when I was single and lived alone I'd run out the door if I saw burglar in my living room, even if I had a pistol on my belt.
Now with kids and not exactly being 19, it's AR time baby. I'd throw a rabid witch down the stairs at a burglar if I could. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:24:50 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to have my AR for home defense but put it away a long time ago. Mainly because I knew it would be gone for good if I had to use it, even if I was not charged. This just adds another negative. It’s terrible this is now the norm, but with the AR being demonized and banned in so many places it’s inevitable. Buy a throwaway AR from palmetto |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:24:50 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryI wonder how many of those rabid "anti-gun" politicians have one in their stash. Leeland Yee comes to mind. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:25:19 PM EDT
[#40]
Doesn't matter in OK. Plenty of bad guys have been shot with AR15s.
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:36:42 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Doesn't matter in OK. Plenty of bad guys have been shot with AR15s. that is certainly a factor. a gun owner MUST understand the political climate of his / her primary jurisdiction some are likely to side with the lawful gun owner. some are looking for a gun owner to make an example of.  |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:38:24 PM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:41:37 PM EDT
[#43]
This isn't an issue in FL. ARs are used for self-defense often. We have robust self-defense laws.
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:44:07 PM EDT
[#44]
There was a similar study done on that the Mini-14 vs AR for cop use.
The Mini was always viewed as less evil by the public. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:47:42 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All very intuitive, no surprises at all. It's funny, I'm opened that M4/1301 thread this morning, looked at those two shotguns and though...hmm, the Beretta would be kind of scary to a non-gun person, but the Benelli screams tactical overload, and I can see a prosecutor parading it around in front of a jury. By the time you've hung a light and a red-dot, there would be absolutely no doubt in the mind of all those soccer moms jurors that you couldn't wait to shoot someone with it. In the off-season I keep a camo'd Browning BPS duck gun with a spare barrel cut down to the legal minimum. The light is a very old Malkoff mod'd Surefire 6P, and it has a side saddle, but overall it pretty much looks like any homeowner here might keep for bumps in the night. For exactly that reason. I have gone to a pump with the light in the fore end (Racker on a Mossberg). I have a tritium XS big dot on it that works great. It is an SBS, but it does not look tactical. I use the Vang Comp cards for a side saddle. They can be stripped off before anybody arrives. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:48:17 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In reality, blasting someone in the torso at 5 yards with a 12Ga shotgun w/ 00 buck is more acceptable than using 3 or 4, 5.56 rounds? /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/fVw58iP-49.gif ETA: STIGMA HOW DOES IT WORK? The AR15 doesn't have to be banned, just make it impossible to justify it's use in SD I like the 12 gauge with select loads for self defense. Pump or semi auto is fine with me. I can get out there 125 yards or better with slugs and that's enough for me. I've got some nice flyers in my side saddle too. Up close, OMG. Just like Little John with a BAR. Lol |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:54:04 PM EDT
[#47]
So is 'SSS' simply an expression of the 5th Amendment (protection against self-incrimination)?
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:54:27 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honestly if it’s a factor a semi-competent lawyer and likable firearms expert on your side could change a couple jurors minds on that pretty easily, but it’s good to be aware of the possible bias and address it Good luck with that in some areas. The jury pools have been salted with people who think even owning an AR makes a person an incipient mass murderer. This has been done with a very malicious and persistent intent. I don't want to be the one who tests it quite honestly. I do like the idea expressed in this thread that the type of weapon used in a self-defense shooting should be challenged as more prejudicial than probative and excluded. This seems like it should be explored more. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 1:00:14 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In reality, blasting someone in the torso at 5 yards with a 12Ga shotgun w/ 00 buck is more acceptable than using 3 or 4, 5.56 rounds? /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/fVw58iP-49.gif ETA: STIGMA HOW DOES IT WORK? The AR15 doesn't have to be banned, just make it impossible to justify it's use in SD It’s about banning guns. The AR is just a lightning rod for the sheep. |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 1:02:10 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good luck with that in some areas. The jury pools have been salted with people who think even owning an AR makes a person an incipient mass murderer. This has been done with a very malicious and persistent intent. I don't want to be the one who tests it quite honestly. I do like the idea expressed in this thread that the type of weapon used in a self-defense shooting should be challenged as more prejudicial than probative and excluded. This seems like it should be explored more. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Honestly if it’s a factor a semi-competent lawyer and likable firearms expert on your side could change a couple jurors minds on that pretty easily, but it’s good to be aware of the possible bias and address it Good luck with that in some areas. The jury pools have been salted with people who think even owning an AR makes a person an incipient mass murderer. This has been done with a very malicious and persistent intent. I don't want to be the one who tests it quite honestly. I do like the idea expressed in this thread that the type of weapon used in a self-defense shooting should be challenged as more prejudicial than probative and excluded. This seems like it should be explored more. Agreed. It's hard to know just what your going to run into these days. I've got three single barrel shotguns strategically placed in my home just on case someone is going to make it real easy for me. They look about as tactical as Gomer Pyle hitting the beach at Iwo Jima with a dilldo stuck up his ass and for now this is what you want. Feel inadequate about not using an AR for self defense? Some of you people should be trained up better than that. But, do what you want. Either way, I'm strapped 87% of the time anyway if not more. |
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