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Posted: 1/13/2023 3:01:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: evnash]
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:37:01 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GreenMushroom: So if i had a couple pistols that i planned to sbr anyway is it still an option to do it the old way? I don't care about free stamps and want both in a single trust. I'm assuming as long as the paperwork is done before the 120 days is up it's good to go? I'd eform today. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:37:06 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rudderbutter: According to what's been published so far, yes. The brace itself is verboten unless attached to a registered SBR. Merely owning a pistol brace is now equivalent to manufacturing a machinegun. Let the implications sink in. There is nothing in the NFA they could possibly use to prosecute somebody for simply owning a brace, they will effectively be treated the same as stocks after this rule change. They *could* attempt to prosecute you for constructive possession for owning both a pistol and a brace, but that was already true of stocks. As long you own something like a rifle or SBR as well that the brace could be legally used on it would be a tough thing for them to prove. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:37:39 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Valravn: Who lists their NFA stuff on trust paperwork. The trust is referenced on the stamp paperwork not the other way around. Given that who would list previously non NFA shit on their trust for any reason? Are your shoelaces on your trust paperwork? A person with a large collection may consider it prudent to hold the firearms in a legal vehicle to avoid many issues that could and/or may arise. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:38:07 PM EDT
[#4]
GET FUCKED!!! I’m keeping my braces!!!
I’ll happily post a picture of me using them in 120 days as a giant fuck you to the ATF! Come and get them, assholes!!! |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:38:15 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kampster: Living in IL further complicates this.... I've stopped worrying. It is just a waiting game now. Both are beyond unconstitutional. ----------------------------- The new ATF regs specifically say the Tailhook Mod 2 is not allowed. That will be interesting when someone is waving the ATF's approval letter of the Tailhook Mod 2 in court. Same for KAK Shockwave. That SB Mini was specifically approved in the last proposal, but now makes an SBR. This is like the 3rd or 4th time they have flipped on "shouldering". So firing a handgun with two hands must "re-design" a handgun into an AOW or something I guess? amirite? Well, some lawyers are gonna get paid..... |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:39:59 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hking: Once its a SBR you can put a stock on it as any other SBR 10. ONCE THE FIREARM IS REGISTERED AS A SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE (SBR) CAN I REMOVE/CHANGE THE “STABILIZING BRACE” OR ATTACH AN ITEM MARKETED AS A STOCK? IF SO, AM I REQUIRED TO NOTIFY ATF IN ADVANCE? • Yes, the firearm is registered as an SBR, and you can change out the “brace” device or stock for a different brace or stock. You do not need to contact ATF/NFA because changing the brace/stock does not change the configuration of the SBR. However, if the length of the firearm has changed you will need to notify the NFA Division. Thanks for posting this as that was my first question. I have registered SBRs but was still curious. This new rule will jam up a lot of people. How many millions of pistol braced guns are out in the wild in the hands of people who will have no knowledge of the change? Most people that own guns don't surf firearm discussion boards all the time. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:40:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ViperHummel: I hope ATF has a booth at SHOT! |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:40:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By panthermark: ^These two get it... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By panthermark: Originally Posted By Mindfull: Originally Posted By cycletool: So they know due to the bumpstock ruling and ADA that this will be struck down. That’s why they eliminated the worksheet. The challenge will take at least 120 days. So they’ll get as many on record with a form 1 as is possible before the ruling. Look over here, a shiny stamp!!!! https://i.postimg.cc/3rkMT7D6/tenor-27.gif ^These two get it... You need to actually read the ADA and articulate to the class how it relates to firearms or braces ...... that's the stupidest thing people continue to think falls within its purview. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:40:47 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Coffin-Nail: This "rule" seems so vastly different from what was proposed wouldn't it have to be put up for comment again? I was thinking the same thing. It is nothing like the last rule, and closer to the first rule attempt from years ago. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:41:00 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Valravn: Who lists their NFA stuff on trust paperwork. The trust is referenced on the stamp paperwork not the other way around. Given that who would list previously non NFA shit on their trust for any reason? Are your shoelaces on your trust paperwork? Yeah I haven't updated my Schedule A since I filed the trust |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:41:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Honda4828: There was legislation passed in the 80’s that gave them the ability to reclassify and regulate items as they saw fit.. pretty sure it was FOPA, but hopefully someone more knowledgeable on the subject will chime in. I've never heard this, despite the numerous threads speculating on applying WV v. EPA to BATFE here. I'd be interested to see if it's really true though. We can add it to the list of laws in conflict with the Constitution. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:41:56 PM EDT
[#12]
Living in IL further complicates this....
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:42:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By odiedodi: Wait, so people with SBR'd lowers have to notify the feds every time they swap out different length uppers?  I think only if it becomes "shorter" than the original Form 1 it was filed under but I could be WAY off....in for answer. Example if my opinion: Original Form 1 applied for used 9" barrel, then on the same lower...I can swap a 12" barrel out and no biggie but if I put a 5" barrel on it I need to resubmit. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:43:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Punkface]
[#14]
I'm torn between FTATF and keeping my brace out of principle or jumping on the free SBR stamp and putting a stock on it since I've always planned on SBRing it anyways.
Ugh. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:44:00 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Scoobysmak: I think only if it becomes "shorter" than the original Form 1 it was filed under but I could be WAY off....in for answer. Example if my opinion: Original Form 1 applied for used 9" barrel, then on the same lower...I can swap a 12" barrel out and no biggie but if I put a 5" barrel on it I need to resubmit. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Scoobysmak: Originally Posted By odiedodi: Wait, so people with SBR'd lowers have to notify the feds every time they swap out different length uppers? I think only if it becomes "shorter" than the original Form 1 it was filed under but I could be WAY off....in for answer. Example if my opinion: Original Form 1 applied for used 9" barrel, then on the same lower...I can swap a 12" barrel out and no biggie but if I put a 5" barrel on it I need to resubmit. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:44:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mr_camera_man: I think we're about to see an application of WV vs. EPA that's going to shake that up a bit. Absolutely. This is going to the USSC. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:44:45 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bad2006z71: Felon. Register, turn your shit in or enjoy jail. Meanwhile hundreds of hood rats in Shitcago and other Democrat utopias are running around free as a bird with wish glock switches. Well that's different!!! |
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WV, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:45:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: big_aug]
[#18]
And no compensation for shit that costs literally hundreds of dollars? Some of these brace setups are fucking $400-500 (talking about you, B&T). Just fucking banned like nothing.
Crazy |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:45:28 PM EDT
[#19]
If everything is sbr nothing is?
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SLE
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:45:35 PM EDT
[#20]
Lol millions of felons overnight
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:45:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Scoobysmak: I think only if it becomes "shorter" than the original Form 1 it was filed under but I could be WAY off....in for answer. Example if my opinion: Original Form 1 applied for used 9" barrel, then on the same lower...I can swap a 12" barrel out and no biggie but if I put a 5" barrel on it I need to resubmit. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Scoobysmak: Originally Posted By odiedodi: Wait, so people with SBR'd lowers have to notify the feds every time they swap out different length uppers? I think only if it becomes "shorter" than the original Form 1 it was filed under but I could be WAY off....in for answer. Example if my opinion: Original Form 1 applied for used 9" barrel, then on the same lower...I can swap a 12" barrel out and no biggie but if I put a 5" barrel on it I need to resubmit. Your supposed to notify ATF if the length of the SBR permanently changes. |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:46:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Vonbongo: Since these are all factory SBR from the jump, you aren’t manufacturing a new one, it already was one so how can 922r apply if there is no act of manufacturing? Supporting that argument is they do not require you to mark the firearm like a typical form 1 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Vonbongo: Originally Posted By HD2006: Don’t forget about 922r (if that sort of thing concerns you  ). How many braced foreign made MP5’s, CZ Scorpions, Stribogs, AK’s (and more I’m not thinking of) are out there that could be made of 100% foreign parts as pistols. Now as rifles once SBR’d will need to have additional parts swapped with US made parts to be compliant. Again if you’re concerned with such things.  Since these are all factory SBR from the jump, you aren’t manufacturing a new one, it already was one so how can 922r apply if there is no act of manufacturing? Supporting that argument is they do not require you to mark the firearm like a typical form 1 922r has never applied to title II firearms. One thing, if simply shouldering a brace reclassifies a pistol to SBR, does this mean if anyone fires a handgun with two hands, does it also reclassify it as an SBR? (Federal law definition of a handgun is a firearm designed to be used with one hand) |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:46:35 PM EDT
[#23]
So......I have a Maxim Defense Brace laying around.
With this news in mind, is it - 1. Worth more now due to high demand from those who want to take advantage of the "free" SBR form 1 ? 2. Worth less ? |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:46:47 PM EDT
[#24]
So if one were to take the stock off of a 16” barrel rifle, could they register that as an sbr for free and then swap the upper for an sbr upper?
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:47:00 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hking: Just logged into eforms, nothing different in the Form 1 process But it looks like I see more categories on the left side, not sure if those were there before or not. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/363844/eformsq_png-2670603.JPG Is this new or am I just forgetting how its always been? wonder if they appeared as a result of the recent update. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:47:21 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kampster: Living in IL further complicates this.... Really any state that has their own ban on short barrel rifles. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:47:21 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Texas393: Lol millions of felons overnight Yup, if we are already felons, what is stopping us becomming felonious? I really don't think they thought this through. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:47:23 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sawgunner73: Your supposed to notify ATF if the length of the SBR permanently changes. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sawgunner73: Originally Posted By Scoobysmak: Originally Posted By odiedodi: Wait, so people with SBR'd lowers have to notify the feds every time they swap out different length uppers? I think only if it becomes "shorter" than the original Form 1 it was filed under but I could be WAY off....in for answer. Example if my opinion: Original Form 1 applied for used 9" barrel, then on the same lower...I can swap a 12" barrel out and no biggie but if I put a 5" barrel on it I need to resubmit. Your supposed to notify ATF if the length of the SBR permanently changes. ^this "Permanently" is the key word here. Swapping out an upper is not a permanent change. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:47:26 PM EDT
[#29]
This is a shit show and probably will be struck down in courts.
Could you buy some lowers with braces on them today online and then still get free stamps? |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:47:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheYellowThing]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sawgunner73: Your supposed to notify ATF if the length of the SBR permanently changes. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sawgunner73: Originally Posted By Scoobysmak: Originally Posted By odiedodi: Wait, so people with SBR'd lowers have to notify the feds every time they swap out different length uppers? I think only if it becomes "shorter" than the original Form 1 it was filed under but I could be WAY off....in for answer. Example if my opinion: Original Form 1 applied for used 9" barrel, then on the same lower...I can swap a 12" barrel out and no biggie but if I put a 5" barrel on it I need to resubmit. Your supposed to notify ATF if the length of the SBR permanently changes. edit: see post a few above |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:47:46 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Scoobysmak: I think only if it becomes "shorter" than the original Form 1 it was filed under but I could be WAY off....in for answer. Example if my opinion: Original Form 1 applied for used 9" barrel, then on the same lower...I can swap a 12" barrel out and no biggie but if I put a 5" barrel on it I need to resubmit. There is no specific requirement to update but your first making needs to be of the lengths you put on the form. They do request you update it but its not specifically required. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:48:00 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Vic_Crown: So......I have a Maxim Defense Brace laying around. With this news in mind, is it - 1. Worth more now due to high demand from those who want to take advantage of the "free" SBR form 1 ? 2. Worth less ? I'd say less. I mean people who are going to register are going to take the brace off and throw a stock on it since it will be an SBR. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:48:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wakeboarder]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mak0: ^this "Permanently" is the key word here. Swapping out an upper is not a permanent change. Words have no fixed meaning to the ATF |
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ZWE
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:49:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: odiedodi]
[#34]
So on the FFL side of it, in the FAQ it says that they can register them all, but correct me if I'm wrong, don't they need a class 3 license to sell them? Wouldn't that effectively leave the FFLs without a SOT with a bunch of inventory that they can't legally sell?
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PA, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:50:13 PM EDT
[#35]
It's just another step in nationwide registration leading to one day............at a very convenient time......confiscation.
There is always a plan behind the plan |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:51:06 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tobysi: So if one were to take the stock off of a 16” barrel rifle, could they register that as an sbr for free and then swap the upper for an sbr upper? You are supposed to have had this short-braced-rifle in possession at time of publishing in the Federal Registrar (likely monday). Post-publishings wont count. As of that date you cannot sell (as an individual or a business) a braced-short-rifle. But you can legally possess the unregistered one for 120 days plus the time for your eform 1 to be approved, and pay no tax. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:51:20 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AK-12: I've never heard this, despite the numerous threads speculating on applying WV v. EPA to BATFE here. I'd be interested to see if it's really true though. We can add it to the list of laws in conflict with the Constitution. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AK-12: Originally Posted By Honda4828: There was legislation passed in the 80’s that gave them the ability to reclassify and regulate items as they saw fit.. pretty sure it was FOPA, but hopefully someone more knowledgeable on the subject will chime in. I've never heard this, despite the numerous threads speculating on applying WV v. EPA to BATFE here. I'd be interested to see if it's really true though. We can add it to the list of laws in conflict with the Constitution. I’ve actually seen it discussed on here but that was several years ago. |
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WV, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:52:11 PM EDT
[#38]
Is it actually published as of today?
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USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:52:32 PM EDT
[#39]
If true, the no bare receiver extensions allowed is the worst part of this. It’s leaving no realistic path towards compliance
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IL, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:52:38 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Really any state that has their own ban on short barrel rifles. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Originally Posted By Kampster: Living in IL further complicates this.... Really any state that has their own ban on short barrel rifles. It's not that IL doesn't allow SBRs, believe it or not they do. But we just got hit with a BS assault weapons ban. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:53:55 PM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:54:26 PM EDT
[#42]
Thread is moving fast, so probably already pointed out:
It looks like AR pistols with just a pistol receiver extension are still good to go, according to page 162 of FATF's publication, because it is necessary for function: The Department agrees with commenters’ concerns regarding the assessment of duplicate points for “attachment method” and “length of pull.” The Department does not adopt the point system from Worksheet 4999. Rather, under this final rule, if a weapon equipped with an accessory, component, or other rearward attachment (e.g., a “stabilizing brace”) has surface area that allows it to be fired from the shoulder, then the other objective design features and other factors listed in this rule are to be considered in determining whether the firearm is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. One objective design feature ATF may consider is whether the attachment is required for the cycle of operations of the weapon, which could indicate the firearmis not designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder. For example, an AR-type pistol with a standard 6- to 6-1/2-inch buffer tube may not be designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder even if the buffer tube provides surface area that allows the firearm to be shoulder fired. On an AR-type pistol, the buffer tube encases a spring that drives the bolt forward when the bolt is driven into the buffer tube by the gas from the initial shot. The picture below displays the internal function of an AR-15 type rifle. The AR-type pistol is a variant of the rifle with the stock removed and has the same receiver and buffer tube function of the rifle version. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:54:51 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Valravn: Who lists their NFA stuff on trust paperwork. The trust is referenced on the stamp paperwork not the other way around. Given that who would list previously non NFA shit on their trust for any reason? Are your shoelaces on your trust paperwork? |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:54:54 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Redneck_in_Texas: Article I, Section 9, Clause 3: No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed. Was legal when I bought it. They can fuck off back to Washington DC That’s not how it works…. But proceed |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:54:56 PM EDT
[#45]
I'm not sure what yall are worked up about. It clearly said if you're disabled this doesn't apply.
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:55:36 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charlie_Bronson: https://s3.gifyu.com/images/not-china.md.jpg  Attached File |
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USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:56:05 PM EDT
[#47]
Somebody did not do the math on what the average brace owner pays in federal taxes, and what that number will look like if a million of them are in prison.
Oh wait... just increase the deficit. We don't even need taxpayers anymore. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:56:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 80085: A person with a large collection may consider it prudent to hold the firearms in a legal vehicle to avoid many issues that could and/or may arise. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 80085: Originally Posted By Valravn: Who lists their NFA stuff on trust paperwork. The trust is referenced on the stamp paperwork not the other way around. Given that who would list previously non NFA shit on their trust for any reason? Are your shoelaces on your trust paperwork? A person with a large collection may consider it prudent to hold the firearms in a legal vehicle to avoid many issues that could and/or may arise. And such a list would need to be notarized every time an addition was made or would it be an internal trust document subject to the management of the trust itself? |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:56:22 PM EDT
[#49]
Back to the receiver/buffer tube extension?
Is this real? Without a buffer tube/ new carrier designs (forget for now) , all AR lowers with buffer tubes are now rifles? |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 4:57:09 PM EDT
[#50]
So before braces were a thing, people wrapped paracord or put a foam tube on the buffer tube.
Then braces came. And Blades. And tail hooks. so what constitutes a brace? Is a bare buffer tube now considered a brace? Paracord? foam? Blade? |
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