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Posted: 10/27/2021 8:27:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: The_Beer_Slayer]
This is now the active "shit News links, thanks to BerettaGuy: Originally Posted By BerettaGuy: LINKS TO UKRAINIAN NEWS SOURCES IN ENGLISH Kyiv Post Ukrainian News UKRInform EUROMAIDEN PRESS New Voice of Ukraine Kyiv Independent Ukraine World InterFax Ukraine UATV Ukrainian Journal Official Website of the President of Ukraine Ukrainian Ministry of Defense Save these links. I can't post all the headlines like I've done in the past - too much news and too often. Please @ me with additional stuff to be added here. I don't currently have time to properly curate this thread otherwise. New news link c/o berettaguy: Ukrainian Pravda https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/ Stop fake, anti - disinformation site: https://www.stopfake.org/en/main/ |
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:20:47 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Russian forces were suffering from 'electronic fratricide' within days of attacking Ukraine, a new report says In the first days of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Russian jamming disrupted Ukraine's air-defense radars and communications links. The problem for Russian forces is that their electronic warfare also jammed their own communications. This "electronic fratricide" became so acute that Russian troops had to stop disrupting Ukrainian communications, according to a study by the Royal United Services Institute, a British think tank. By the end of the first week of the invasion, Russian ground forces being unable to effectively communicate "became a greater threat to the Russian operation than Ukrainian [surface-to-air missile] systems, so their electronic warfare assets began to greatly scale back their operations after the first two days," the RUSI report says. Initially, Russia's jamming offensive was devastating and validated Moscow's heavy investment in electronic warfare. For years, the Pentagon has worried it lags far behind Russia in electronic-warfare capabilities, which could disrupt the extensive communications networks that enable the US military to fight in a coordinated fashion. Generally, Russian electronic-warfare systems "have actually proven extremely effective," Nick Reynolds, a coauthor of the RUSI study, told Insider, and Russia's initial onslaught in Ukraine seemed to bear out the Pentagon's fears. "During the first week of the invasion, Russian electronic warfare using jamming equipment and E-96M aerial decoys were highly effective in disrupting" Ukraine's ground-based air-defense systems, the RUSI report says. Russian jamming severely disrupted Ukrainian S-300 and SA-11 surface-to-air-missile batteries north of Kyiv. Russia also launched extensive ballistic- and cruise-missile strikes on Ukraine's long-range radars and anti-aircraft batteries. The combined effect was Ukraine's ground-based air defenses were hit so hard that its badly outnumbered fleet of MiG-29 and Su-27 fighters had to take primary responsibility for protecting the country's skies. But as Russia's advance began to bog down, Russian troops discovered that they had "no coherent communications plan," according to the RUSI report. Russian units lacked trained radio operators and encryption keys to decipher coded communications. Some radios had cheap Chinese-made components that left them vulnerable to Ukrainian jamming. Russian mobile air-defense units — which were supposed to keep up with the armored columns — were also hampered by poor communications. The result was that Russia's electronic offensive boomeranged. "The electronic warfare capabilities that had been initially very effective in degrading Ukrainian SAM systems were also causing serious electronic fratricide problems and thus compounding an increasingly critical communications breakdown among Russian ground force elements," the RUSI report says. Not surprisingly, Russia cut back on electronic warfare after the first two days of the war. "This allowed newly relocated Ukrainian SAM systems to regain much of their effectiveness, although it took time to repair or adapt to much of the damage to key radar systems for early warning and long-range missile guidance," the report says. "In the first week of March, however, Ukrainian SAMs began to inflict significant losses on Russian attack sorties," the report added. Nonetheless, the ultimate failure of Russia's jamming campaign wasn't the technical quality of Russian jammers. Moscow's electronic offensive fizzled for the same reasons that the ground offensive bogged down. Poor planning, lack of coordination, and a general indifference by Russian commanders toward getting the details right doomed what many thought would be easy advance on Kyiv. Strangely, despite otherwise impressive EW capabilities, Russian communications security has also been atrocious, including instances of Russian soldiers using unencrypted cell phones for battlefield communications, allowing Ukrainian intelligence and foreign powers to eavesdrop. The role of jamming in Ukraine reflects the growing importance of the electromagnetic spectrum for modern conflict. Using radio signals, infrared sensing, and radar to track foes and communicate with friendly forces is vital to combined-arms warfare. https://i.insider.com/637b7f162c8b9a0018cbda36?width=1200&format=jpeg&auto=webp That may be the best article that I've read this month on the Russia-Ukraine conflict. |
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:22:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: You have to take our the whole of our foreign policy failures into account when you discuss Ukraine, the same people who planned and orchestra all those failures are the same people running the current show. Those people actions have made the US less safe more than enough times to believe it was more than just bad luck and just not bad odds. But we are supposed forget all that and to play odds this one times and accept they are right doing is this times and it will make the US safer? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: We can offset any potential move up of the Chinese timetable by arming Taiwan now. Patriot batteries, sea mines, starlinks whatever, tunnel into the mountains like Switzerland, mine tge beaches, store m1s and Bradley’s in sealed caves. Sell them mucho fighters. We don’t for political reasons again. Same formula same result. Ukraine has nothing to do with it other than a possibly repeated failure of Foreign policy. We either go all in or better not play at all. Our enemies don’t play by the same rules. If chinas going to invade, it’s a decision they have made already. They might delay or expedite but it’s decided. I saw Russia coming for Ukraine way before 2014. We basically signaled “meh” which only encouraged it. You have to take our the whole of our foreign policy failures into account when you discuss Ukraine, the same people who planned and orchestra all those failures are the same people running the current show. Those people actions have made the US less safe more than enough times to believe it was more than just bad luck and just not bad odds. But we are supposed forget all that and to play odds this one times and accept they are right doing is this times and it will make the US safer? Potential future negative consequences for doing the right thing aren't justification to abstain from action. |
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:26:13 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mnd: Potential future negative consequences for doing the right thing aren't justification to abstain from action. As long as you're willing to accept the second and third order effects of it no. But realize there are always second and third order effects. |
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:26:21 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Gonna have to disagree on that point. We shouldn't be depleting our stockpiles, we should use this as a test to put domestic production on war footing and see what we can actually crank out if the need requires it. Got old stuff sitting around? Make the new stuff and once delivered to the units ship the old stuff out. Lets us upgrade our line systems and see where our shortcomings are on the production/logistics front in the event of an actual war. Frankly we need to see how rusty the "arsenal of democracy" actually is at this point. It’s a pittance of what we have and not even the good stuff. |
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:35:06 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: As long as you're willing to accept the second and third order effects of it no. But realize there are always second and third order effects. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Originally Posted By mnd: Potential future negative consequences for doing the right thing aren't justification to abstain from action. As long as you're willing to accept the second and third order effects of it no. But realize there are always second and third order effects. As opposed to the second and third order effects of doing the wrong thing? |
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:35:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Gonna have to disagree on that point. We shouldn't be depleting our stockpiles, we should use this as a test to put domestic production on war footing and see what we can actually crank out if the need requires it. Got old stuff sitting around? Make the new stuff and once delivered to the units ship the old stuff out. Lets us upgrade our line systems and see where our shortcomings are on the production/logistics front in the event of an actual war. Frankly we need to see how rusty the "arsenal of democracy" actually is at this point. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Originally Posted By postpostban: ...Refusing to help because we have to maintain stockpile numbers seems foolish. Those stockpiles are only there to be used against our enemies. Russia has more than earned the title of enemy... Gonna have to disagree on that point. We shouldn't be depleting our stockpiles, we should use this as a test to put domestic production on war footing and see what we can actually crank out if the need requires it. Got old stuff sitting around? Make the new stuff and once delivered to the units ship the old stuff out. Lets us upgrade our line systems and see where our shortcomings are on the production/logistics front in the event of an actual war. Frankly we need to see how rusty the "arsenal of democracy" actually is at this point. An understandable point of view, but while we sit on our hands waiting for Lockheed/Boeing/Whoever to gear up and deliver things, how many more Ukrainians die, how much more time do we give Russia to consolidate? If 18 HIMARS can put Russia on their heels like this, why haven't we sent 100, and kept 300 back for ourselves? Ditto with every other weapon system we own, that I've helped pay for? 75% of our stockpile would seem to be enough to deal with, well...ANYTHING. |
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:39:45 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mnd: As opposed to the second and third order effects of doing the wrong thing? All I'm saying is there's always unintended consequences. Look at our support of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan. We got the Taliban and Bin Laden out of that one. The key is to not look at it blindly as an absolute "we must do the thing because it is right" with no foresight and instead look at how you mitigate those consequences. |
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:39:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CharlieR]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: It's an interesting position, there have been numerous articles about potential shortages of critical weapons and the slow pace of reloading those magazines. The only way to prove it is to cite TMR numbers, which no one would be stupid enough to do, hence it can not be true because the only way you can confirm or deny those articles is to cite from something that is secret. I dont need to do subtraction, just look at the numbers of things that are notably NOT committed to this fight: I find that curious, as anyone paying attention to the news can see that we have been sending and spending a great deal of: gmlrs javelin stinger 155mm anything I missed? The services that have yelled loudest and hardest to shift to the Pacific, shift to near-peer competitors, are the ones not committed to this: USN, USAF, USMC. The Navy in particular has been fighting to get out of the Mideast and shift to the Pacific and allow them to take the lead. Well, here's their big chance. We aren't providing planes, bombs, carriers, or ships to Ukraine. No CVNs, Aegis, B2s, JDAMS, F35s....you know, the sorts of things we would defend an island with. If so inclined. When I google "US Air Force shift to Pacific" I get 47 million hits. Change that to "Navy" and I get 14 million. Either those three services go out to the Western Pacific and do some deterrence, or let's send the carriers home and break them up for razor blades, take the savings, and replenish the Army's ammo stocks. I find it hard to believe the combined weight of those services cant deter the Chinese. But if they're getting aggressive because the Army's logisticians are busy contributing to Ukraine....noted. The elegant solution is crush Russians and then give all of our friends some nukes. Problem solved. Park a brigade of Marines on Taiwan and the CVNs off the coast. But the "ammo shortage" argument doesn't stand scrutiny. Because if we don't do THAT, we aren't serious. If we do do THAT, ammo doesn't matter. Right now it looks like we're not serious. That's a choice....but don't screw the Ukrainians over like its their fault. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:41:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: THOT_Vaccine]
[#9]
Lukashenko literally hosted a meeting with a map. Big broad arrows pointing from Belarus across Poland and Lithuania into Kaliningrad. Putin did an interview talking about unifying isolated Russian colonies in Transnistria and across europe at the start of the shitshow.
Our compatriots from Truth Social blind eye that shit. "Let's talk about Ukraine... not what didn't happen." "Let's talk about what we can't afford" "You get all your talking points from..." Nah dude. Preach that horseshit to the other Choir. I can smell it from here. BTW: I'm not against auditing every fripping dollar going to ukraine like it's John Gotti's taxes. Those Eastern Europe mafiosi didn't just take a nap when this shit started. |
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:44:16 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kagetora: An understandable point of view, but while we sit on our hands waiting for Lockheed/Boeing/Whoever to gear up and deliver things, how many more Ukrainians die, how much more time do we give Russia to consolidate? If 18 HIMARS can put Russia on their heels like this, why haven't we sent 100, and kept 300 back for ourselves? Ditto with every other weapon system we own, that I've helped pay for? 75% of our stockpile would seem to be enough to deal with, well...ANYTHING. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kagetora: Originally Posted By DASJUDEN: Originally Posted By postpostban: ...Refusing to help because we have to maintain stockpile numbers seems foolish. Those stockpiles are only there to be used against our enemies. Russia has more than earned the title of enemy... Gonna have to disagree on that point. We shouldn't be depleting our stockpiles, we should use this as a test to put domestic production on war footing and see what we can actually crank out if the need requires it. Got old stuff sitting around? Make the new stuff and once delivered to the units ship the old stuff out. Lets us upgrade our line systems and see where our shortcomings are on the production/logistics front in the event of an actual war. Frankly we need to see how rusty the "arsenal of democracy" actually is at this point. An understandable point of view, but while we sit on our hands waiting for Lockheed/Boeing/Whoever to gear up and deliver things, how many more Ukrainians die, how much more time do we give Russia to consolidate? If 18 HIMARS can put Russia on their heels like this, why haven't we sent 100, and kept 300 back for ourselves? Ditto with every other weapon system we own, that I've helped pay for? 75% of our stockpile would seem to be enough to deal with, well...ANYTHING. 100 systems fire five times as many rockets. I bet that's a big part of the reason. |
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:49:09 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CenterMass762: 100 systems fire five times as many rockets. I bet that's a big part of the reason. Bingo. The bottleneck isn't the launcher it's the ammunition, and that's why I think we should be doing the war footing for domestic production model. We actually are really shitty as a military at keeping enough precision guided munitions on hand for certain systems. Frankly we need to exercise that production surge capability. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:50:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By postpostban: That is my take as well. Walking away now demonstrates yet again that we have zero commitment to our beliefs and our allies. Ukraine has become the best chance I have seen since Korea maybe to actually help people who want to be free. Refusing to help because we have to maintain stockpile numbers seems foolish. Those stockpiles are only there to be used against our enemies. Russia has more than earned the title of enemy. Should we watch the equipment given to Ukraine like a hawk? Absolutely. Should we expect Ukraine to pay us back? Absolutely. Should there be strict accounting for every dollar spent on this war? You better believe it. Should we walk away now from the financial investment we have already made? No way! I won't comment on this, in this thread, again. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By postpostban: Originally Posted By j_hooker: Originally Posted By postpostban: Originally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By dillydilly: Originally Posted By R0N: That sounds good and may make a good bumper sticker but in the real world you cannot trade dead Ukrainians for new control and steering units for M31s, IMX 101 for M795s, seekers for JAVs etc we now need to buy. That’s not how war works. As the poster above me said, Ukraine better align with us. They have nautical resources and a work force that can be used to cover that. I have a feeling I know quite a bit more about how war works than most And you may want to look up lend lease, because some nations are still making payments on that So what EXACTLY do you think the US government should be doing? You keep beating the same bushes, but you don't seem to actually get to a point. Yeah, R0N is losing me. I thought it was due to the improper use and lack of Himars rockets since he mentioned he has special intel, which I could understand . Then it was a fear of a void/vacuum if Putin left. I’m starting to see he has different issues now. I asked for ideas a 1000 pages back along with others and we’ll, I haven’t read of any ideas yet from R0N That is my take as well. Walking away now demonstrates yet again that we have zero commitment to our beliefs and our allies. Ukraine has become the best chance I have seen since Korea maybe to actually help people who want to be free. Refusing to help because we have to maintain stockpile numbers seems foolish. Those stockpiles are only there to be used against our enemies. Russia has more than earned the title of enemy. Should we watch the equipment given to Ukraine like a hawk? Absolutely. Should we expect Ukraine to pay us back? Absolutely. Should there be strict accounting for every dollar spent on this war? You better believe it. Should we walk away now from the financial investment we have already made? No way! I won't comment on this, in this thread, again. The rapid expending of munitions and related reductions of stockpiles have kickstarted the discussions and planning and actual ramping up of production that had been ignored by every administration since the end of the Cold War. One could argue that if we weren’t arming Ukraine we’d remain complacent and still be in a “pants down” stage when China kicks things off. Eyes have been opened, shortages and vulnerabilities openly acknowledged. Also, lol at the idea that China is now MOVING UP timelines to invade Taiwan, and double-lol that they are doing so because of US support of Ukraine. Arguing such foolish POVs is a great way to not be taken seriously. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:50:06 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: This is what actually pisses off many of the people in my circles of current and retired military and IC. Most of are good with killing Russians but are not under illusion this war will result in a more secure international environment for the US, nor do we see that in the end the small expenditures up front will save any money. The small amount being paid now is a down payment on a massive long term cost at a time when we cannot afford it. It is kind of weird to those of us who have been the security state our entire lives at the level of support being shown by those outside of it for it and its indicator how effective IO can be at swaying populations there are so many talking points being spewed by those supporting “the cause.” Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By IEC: I don't care if we spend $1T total in military aid to Ukraine. Our current expenditures are reaping 2-3x in destroyed Russian equipment, not even counting the damage to Russian manpower and training for DECADES to come. What's more, we're sending 1-2 generations (or more) old American equipment that would otherwise by and large be destined for demil or long term storage. So we save maintenance and demil costs. But here's the real icing on the cake: The world is seeing in real-time that even 1980s era American equipment is excellent and trouncing anything the Russians can field. This will drive hundreds of billions in arms purchasing from AMERICAN industry which means more AMERICAN manufacturing jobs. This is the very definition of a bargain. As far as I'm concerned, any Congress critter advocating for ending military aid to Ukraine should be investigated for ties to the Kremlin. This is what actually pisses off many of the people in my circles of current and retired military and IC. Most of are good with killing Russians but are not under illusion this war will result in a more secure international environment for the US, nor do we see that in the end the small expenditures up front will save any money. The small amount being paid now is a down payment on a massive long term cost at a time when we cannot afford it. It is kind of weird to those of us who have been the security state our entire lives at the level of support being shown by those outside of it for it and its indicator how effective IO can be at swaying populations there are so many talking points being spewed by those supporting “the cause.” Can't afford it in general, or can't afford it because we're probably going to need those warstocks vis a vis China in a few years? |
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:56:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Gonna have to disagree on that point. We shouldn't be depleting our stockpiles, we should use this as a test to put domestic production on war footing and see what we can actually crank out if the need requires it. Got old stuff sitting around? Make the new stuff and once delivered to the units ship the old stuff out. Lets us upgrade our line systems and see where our shortcomings are on the production/logistics front in the event of an actual war. Frankly we need to see how rusty the "arsenal of democracy" actually is at this point. This war revealed that the emperor was naked, which is valuable. I’m a lot more tolerant of using up stocks of ground based munitions systems than naval and aerial systems. |
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Posted: 11/21/2022 11:59:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: All I'm saying is there's always unintended consequences. Look at our support of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan. We got the Taliban and Bin Laden out of that one. The key is to not look at it blindly as an absolute "we must do the thing because it is right" with no foresight and instead look at how you mitigate those consequences. Crushing the Soviets was worth it. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:04:33 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _disconnector_: I just can't understand the absolute idiocy of not having the slightest overhead cover. Just a bunch of branches propped over the hole if nothing else. It just seems amazingly stupid to me. Yeah since the beginning of this I've seen a number of vehicles and people who could have been saved with something as simple as a tarp strung up above them, or a basic A-frame tarp shelter to deflect the grenade / provide standoff. Not to mention the tarps ability to reduce the drones ability to tell if a hole is occupied or not...its madness. I wonder, are these frontline guys not getting any video like we see on r/combatfootage etc? |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:06:16 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Crushing the Soviets was worth it. The lack of follow up after we got our desired result wasn't. It's my point that that is something we need to correct. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:07:51 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bikedamon: This arrived today. https://i.ibb.co/D9mFxp2/F115-C921-09-A2-48-F5-B6-E3-DCA89-EDD39-BC.jpg https://i.ibb.co/Yc7MVXH/719-BD1-DC-B902-4-C5-A-8907-84-A85381-DC77.jpg How much are they? @bikedamon |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:10:34 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Yeah since the beginning of this I've seen a number of vehicles and people who could have been saved with something as simple as a tarp strung up above them, or a basic A-frame tarp shelter to deflect the grenade / provide standoff. Not to mention the tarps ability to reduce the drones ability to tell if a hole is occupied or not...its madness. I wonder, are these frontline guys not getting any video like we see on r/combatfootage etc? Even if they are not seeing any videos ever, they are still damned aware that drones are hunting them and dropping grenades their comrades. A tarp for the purpose of hiding seems painfully obvious. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:13:55 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472: Distribution A, so fuck it. “Hypervelocity” stuff ETA sorry the image quality is low. It wouldn’t let me upload the original, once I blurred out the names. I think it was too big. This is from the last hypervelocity impact symposium in September. Projos are right cyl, hemis, spheres… it’s basic research https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/539199/511C0E30-2DCD-4A98-8921-0CB9F5E38F29-2608912.jpg Damn it there’s a typo!!!!  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472: Originally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By Freiheit8472: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By general_cluster: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: I'm always amused to see the results of a live fire test. One of the benefits is that in this case, it makes the enemy vehicle irreparable. i am surprised by how small those balls are. speed conquers all I guess. they must really be hauling the mail. That has got to be demoralizing to the point of terror. I've read grenade fragments and claymore BB's are going 5,000fps+, so probably comparable with HIMARS. If they are using tungsten BB's/frags instead of steel, they will be extra penetrative as Tungsten is much harder and denser. Orbital ATK makes all those warheads, they show various systems with high speed camera in video below.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0_Okn7AsZYNice, that Hatchet muntion is one to watch. Thats going to allow small drones to have major strike power, and give proper large drones and real airplanes the ability to completely wipe out whole areas (imagine these on that 40km convoy towards Kiev at the opening of the war...) https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/img_6699-1344x2048.jpg In terms of the underlying technology, it seems like its just PFF - Pre Formed Fragmentation? Ie a body made of suspended steel or tungsten BB's or cubes. SAAB used that in their MAPAM mortar shells to 2x + their lethal radius compared to a standard iron / steel fragmenting body: https://www.malaysiandefence.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/95hcZse.jpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aS80fLDcGYI guess GMLRS is like a 200lb MAPAM shell, using tungsten BB's? To put it simply, yes. All those are variations that are scaled up, or down using tungsten bb's with the explosive to enhance the effects of the weapon. Comment on the convo about their velocity: there'a a phenomenon called a "shatter gap" in impact physics where above a threshold velocity a projectile will shatter upon impact, but NOT shatter and penetrate and lower velocities. It depends on the material properties of both the projo and target. Tungsten is brittle, so those lower velocities are better. It was discovered in wwi where penetration went down at shortening ranges from the launch platform (since the projectile has had less time to decelerate due to drag). Story time: I can tell you it doesn't take much 6061 aluminum (less than an inch) to stop a pencil eraser size tungsten projectile at 3 km/s. 3 km/s is 9840 feet/second. What was the shape of that projectile? What was the launching mechanism? I'm skeptical about that speed. Distribution A, so fuck it. “Hypervelocity” stuff ETA sorry the image quality is low. It wouldn’t let me upload the original, once I blurred out the names. I think it was too big. This is from the last hypervelocity impact symposium in September. Projos are right cyl, hemis, spheres… it’s basic research https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/539199/511C0E30-2DCD-4A98-8921-0CB9F5E38F29-2608912.jpg Damn it there’s a typo!!!! Thats fucking awesome. What is this for? Protection against micro meteors and space debris? Micro railguns? |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:25:06 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: This war revealed that the emperor was naked, which is valuable. I’m a lot more tolerant of using up stocks of ground based munitions systems than naval and aerial systems. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By DASJUDEN: Gonna have to disagree on that point. We shouldn't be depleting our stockpiles, we should use this as a test to put domestic production on war footing and see what we can actually crank out if the need requires it. Got old stuff sitting around? Make the new stuff and once delivered to the units ship the old stuff out. Lets us upgrade our line systems and see where our shortcomings are on the production/logistics front in the event of an actual war. Frankly we need to see how rusty the "arsenal of democracy" actually is at this point. This war revealed that the emperor was naked, which is valuable. I’m a lot more tolerant of using up stocks of ground based munitions systems than naval and aerial systems. It occurs to me that we should "practice" cranking up our war-related domestic production periodically to make damn sure we have the industrial base and raw materials to support doing so when we truly need to. The war in Ukraine gives us a valid reason to increase our weapons production capabilities. Just seeing how much stuff is being consumed in the war should give pause to ALCON. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:29:07 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: It occurs to me that we should "practice" cranking up our war-related domestic production periodically to make damn sure we have the industrial base and raw materials to support doing so when we truly need to. The war in Ukraine gives us a valid reason to increase our weapons production capabilities. Just seeing how much stuff is being consumed in the war should give pause to ALCON. I agree that it makes sense we (the USA) *should* test our production capabilities from time to time. But that shit's not free, so we don't. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:29:25 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: The lack of follow up after we got our desired result wasn't. It's my point that that is something we need to correct. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Crushing the Soviets was worth it. The lack of follow up after we got our desired result wasn't. It's my point that that is something we need to correct. We kept a lot of the nuke and rocket scientists gainfully employed so they wouldn't go selling their knowledge to places like Iran and NK. We also made the rather grandiose assumption that they wouldn't revert to a giant mafia-run dictatorship. That turned out to be a bad assumption on our part. The other assumption we made was that they would never again try to get the Soviet band back together again. That turned out not to be such a great assumption either. 
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:30:36 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Circuits: I agree that it makes sense we (the USA) *should* test our production capabilities from time to time. But that shit's not free, so we don't. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Circuits: Originally Posted By planemaker: It occurs to me that we should "practice" cranking up our war-related domestic production periodically to make damn sure we have the industrial base and raw materials to support doing so when we truly need to. The war in Ukraine gives us a valid reason to increase our weapons production capabilities. Just seeing how much stuff is being consumed in the war should give pause to ALCON. I agree that it makes sense we (the USA) *should* test our production capabilities from time to time. But that shit's not free, so we don't. And, invariably, we get caught flat-footed because of it. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:33:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#25]
Russians are making a big deal about this unit in Melitopol/Zaporizhzhia.
All of these were within an hour of each other.  https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/16391563  https://tvzvezda.ru/news/20221122427-2s2NP.html  https://iz.ru/1429195/video/rabota-batalona-sudoplatova-v-melitopole https://t.me/rian_ru/186366 Volunteers from the Sudoplatov battalion in the Zaporozhye region are ready to perform combat missions of any complexity, many have the necessary combat experience, they have all the necessary equipment, said the deputy governor of the region for defense with the call sign "Terek" |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:34:25 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: We kept a lot of the nuke and rocket scientists gainfully employed so they wouldn't go selling their knowledge to places like Iran and NK. We also made the rather grandiose assumption that they wouldn't revert to a giant mafia-run dictatorship. That turned out to be a bad assumption on our part. The other assumption we made was that they would never again try to get the Soviet band back together again. That turned out not to be such a great assumption either. I'm talking more we should have discretely removed some players from the game on the Muj side of the house once the desired effect was achieved. Point being we better have a plan for when this is over for all sides involved. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:34:36 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: The lack of follow up after we got our desired result wasn't. It's my point that that is something we need to correct. We elect morons who put other morons into state dept positions. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:36:45 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: We elect morons who put other morons into state dept positions. Ain't that the fucking truth. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:47:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: stone-age]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: We elect morons who put other morons into state dept positions. You would think by now that if the nations that like having a modern and happy country that can trade with other nations so that everybody can do their job and have a nice life would understand that if they want it to continue ,then be capable of stomping the nation that will try to roll over your borders. Making it too painful is the only way to prevent it. And have friends. I am again astonished that russia is willing to send the rest of the entire planet into shit for their own gains. All they had to do was sell fuel, make bank, and improve their own country. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 12:50:18 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: You would think by now that if the nations that like having a modern and happy country that can trade with other nations so that everybody can do their job and have a nice life would understand that if they want it to continue ,then be capable of stomping the nation that will try to roll over your borders. Making it too painful is the only way to prevent it. And have friends. I am again astonished that russia is willing to send the rest of the entire planet into shit for their own gains. All they had to do was sell fuel, make bank, and improve their own country. Seems pretty simple, doesn't it? |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 1:03:02 AM EDT
[#31]
This video was posted yesterday as evidence of a destroyed Ukrainian column. UA Minister of Defense says “nope, video of us training”.
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Posted: 11/22/2022 1:14:25 AM EDT
[#32]
‼️ Better than ATACMS: What missiles can Israel provide to Ukraine
🫵 Ukraine can get extremely effective Israeli Lora ballistic missiles. A real sensation came from the mouth of the head of the Israeli National Security Council, Eyal Hulat. ☝️He stated: if Iran supplies Russia with Fateh-110 and Zolfaghar ballistic missiles, Israel can provide high-precision missiles to Ukraine in return. ☝️The local Channel 9 writes with reference to experts and analysts that Khulat meant Israeli ballistic missiles. Defense Express believes that it is about the Lora OTRK - it was Israel that supplied it to Azerbaijan. This weapon has already been successfully tested in Nagorny Karabas. 📌Lora is a new generation of long-range high-precision weapons. 📌Can destroy targets at a range of up to 400 km. 📌The size of the warhead is 570 kg. 📌In addition to the usual high-explosive fragmentation weapon, it can be equipped with a special anti-bunker warhead. 📌It has a television targeting system that allows you to hit the target with the minimum possible error. 📌Can maneuver during flight, which makes it difficult to intercept. 📌Due to its small size, it can be launched from the chassis of a regular truck. ⚡️The Defense Express profile publication considers the Lora OTRK to be better than the American ATACMS in most parameters - the flight range is 100 km longer, and the weight of the warhead is 2.5 times greater. 🫵Now about the reality of obtaining such a weapon. Eyal Khulat is retiring soon, so he can afford such statements. But there are two factors that play in our favor: 👉 It would be shameful for the Netanyahu government to withdraw this promise of the previous government, because it will look like weakness in front of Iran 👉 The military alliance of Russia and Iran and the possibility of Tehran obtaining nuclear technologies is a huge threat to the security of Israel. 👉 So there are two options - either Russia will give up Iranian missiles so as not to receive "cotton" in return, or the Armed Forces will have weapons and additional capabilities to deter the enemy. We are watching!!! In the meantime, subscribe to Orestocracy. https://t.me/bochkala_war/9876 |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 1:14:43 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Bingo. The bottleneck isn't the launcher it's the ammunition, and that's why I think we should be doing the war footing for domestic production model. We actually are really shitty as a military at keeping enough precision guided munitions on hand for certain systems. Frankly we need to exercise that production surge capability. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Originally Posted By CenterMass762: 100 systems fire five times as many rockets. I bet that's a big part of the reason. Bingo. The bottleneck isn't the launcher it's the ammunition, and that's why I think we should be doing the war footing for domestic production model. We actually are really shitty as a military at keeping enough precision guided munitions on hand for certain systems. Frankly we need to exercise that production surge capability. Put your bingo card away. You didn't win. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Maybe apples to basketballs. It's a big difference between building a HIMARS system and building ammo for it to shoot. Ask me how I know. It'd be from trying to build military aircraft, including F-22's, vs building what they poop out of their hatches. I won't argue that we've let shit slip as far as our manufacturing goes...but I'll happily contest the idea that we can't build ammo as fast as we can build complex platforms to launch it. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 1:25:39 AM EDT
[#34]
Pro-Russian source, but the interesting part here is this is SSE of Belgorod.
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Posted: 11/22/2022 1:33:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Freiheit8472]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Thats fucking awesome. What is this for? Protection against micro meteors and space debris? Micro railguns? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Freiheit8472: Originally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By Freiheit8472: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By general_cluster: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: I'm always amused to see the results of a live fire test. One of the benefits is that in this case, it makes the enemy vehicle irreparable. i am surprised by how small those balls are. speed conquers all I guess. they must really be hauling the mail. That has got to be demoralizing to the point of terror. I've read grenade fragments and claymore BB's are going 5,000fps+, so probably comparable with HIMARS. If they are using tungsten BB's/frags instead of steel, they will be extra penetrative as Tungsten is much harder and denser. Orbital ATK makes all those warheads, they show various systems with high speed camera in video below. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0_Okn7AsZYNice, that Hatchet muntion is one to watch. Thats going to allow small drones to have major strike power, and give proper large drones and real airplanes the ability to completely wipe out whole areas (imagine these on that 40km convoy towards Kiev at the opening of the war...) https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/img_6699-1344x2048.jpg In terms of the underlying technology, it seems like its just PFF - Pre Formed Fragmentation? Ie a body made of suspended steel or tungsten BB's or cubes. SAAB used that in their MAPAM mortar shells to 2x + their lethal radius compared to a standard iron / steel fragmenting body: https://www.malaysiandefence.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/95hcZse.jpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aS80fLDcGYI guess GMLRS is like a 200lb MAPAM shell, using tungsten BB's? To put it simply, yes. All those are variations that are scaled up, or down using tungsten bb's with the explosive to enhance the effects of the weapon. Comment on the convo about their velocity: there'a a phenomenon called a "shatter gap" in impact physics where above a threshold velocity a projectile will shatter upon impact, but NOT shatter and penetrate and lower velocities. It depends on the material properties of both the projo and target. Tungsten is brittle, so those lower velocities are better. It was discovered in wwi where penetration went down at shortening ranges from the launch platform (since the projectile has had less time to decelerate due to drag). Story time: I can tell you it doesn't take much 6061 aluminum (less than an inch) to stop a pencil eraser size tungsten projectile at 3 km/s. 3 km/s is 9840 feet/second. What was the shape of that projectile? What was the launching mechanism? I'm skeptical about that speed. Distribution A, so fuck it. “Hypervelocity” stuff ETA sorry the image quality is low. It wouldn’t let me upload the original, once I blurred out the names. I think it was too big. This is from the last hypervelocity impact symposium in September. Projos are right cyl, hemis, spheres… it’s basic research https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/539199/511C0E30-2DCD-4A98-8921-0CB9F5E38F29-2608912.jpg Damn it there’s a typo!!!! Thats fucking awesome. What is this for? Protection against micro meteors and space debris? Micro railguns? Good eye!! Yes “planetary defense” (they actually use that sexy term) is one big chunk of hypervelocity impact research. Goddard is right down the road and we like to help our neighbors, as the good book says. Though, that’s not an army application. Unfortunately there’s a reason our poster doesn’t have any motivational stuff since it was a public (and international) conference. We were almost not given public release permission since “hypervelocity” is a hot topic now, but we made the point our hypervelocity isn’t the hypervelocity making headlines. Still, there were some Asians there dressed identically that freaked me the fook out tho. Jesus how naive/dumb can you be to think that is a way to blend in and not give anything away. The Europeans I spoke too were very happy for Ukraine to kick ass. Some Brits were quite proud to be helping them. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 1:34:52 AM EDT
[#36]
Russian TG post about Russian and Iranian defense industries.
🇮🇬🇬🇧We agree with our colleagues from Rybar about the specific Iranian concept of "shoot down - study - create an analogue", however, we would like to note one more important detail of the Iranian military-industrial complex, which is greatly lacking in the Russian defense industry. One common trend is visible in many Iranian military products: the Iranians equip absolutely any equipment and platform with high-precision weapons, turning them into carriers of guided weapons. There are a lot of examples of this equipment: the same recently mentioned Shahed-133 UAV, which was turned by the Persians into a carrier of Sadid guided bombs, the old Su-22s of the VKSIR IRGC are capable of destroying ground targets with Yasin high-precision glide bombs, and the AH-1J Toufan-2 helicopter ”, which is a modernization of the ancient AH-1J "Super Cobra", can strike with Ghaem-114 guided missiles, which are analogues of the American Hellfire. Yes, the same Shahed-136 is extremely simple in its design, but it is a kind of cheap and reduced power cruise missile, which makes this moped(lol) a powerful and cheap weapon for destroying static ground targets. This is a common detail of all Iranian products: to endow old models with the ability to use high-precision weapons, which greatly increases the combat capability of a combat unit and which is sorely lacking in our products. Looking at the participation of aviation in the NMD, one gets the feeling that Russian military thought has gone according to the opposite principle: unguided bombs and missiles are hung on the latest aircraft and helicopters, significantly reducing the effectiveness of combat work and increasing the risk of losing aircraft and pilots. @milinfolive https://t.me/milinfolive/93616  |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 1:35:20 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kagetora: Put your bingo card away. You didn't win. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Maybe apples to basketballs. It's a big difference between building a HIMARS system and building ammo for it to shoot. Ask me how I know. It'd be from trying to build military aircraft, including F-22's, vs building what they poop out of their hatches. I won't argue that we've let shit slip as far as our manufacturing goes...but I'll happily contest the idea that we can't build ammo as fast as we can build complex platforms to launch it. I may have worded that poorly because you missed my intended point, I'll restate. The point wasn't that we can't build the systems faster than the missiles, The point was that we are having a slow time producing enough GMLRS to back fill what we're giving Ukraine and giving them even more launchers would make that bottleneck even worse. We've let our PGM production surge capacity go to shit and it's been a known thing in my specialty since at least 2017. I'm not an Arty guy so maybe R0N can cover that but I can't imagine they'd be much better than us on the logistical side. Side question: Were you at Langley by chance? |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/22/2022 1:36:50 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: The aid Ukraine is getting from us is just a drop In the bucket from our national defense budget. It's not putting us in a fiscal bind. My opinion it's the best investment our gov has done in decades for our national defense Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: Originally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: Originally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By lorazepam: Originally Posted By R0N: I understand the tendency of people to become emotionally involved in a cause or in the case of the Ukraine war I know a lot of people are taking their ancestry and heritage into account. What I said multiple times is, I think the analysis of the situation should be done as unemotional and without passion as possible and from my perspective, with a view to what is in Americas best interest. And I am not sure that people who are allowing their ancestral biases to slant views are doing that. It the simple things like acknowledging the various things that happen in the war, happen, instead they make themselves seem stupid by sticking their fingers in their ears and saying that it’s not happening when anyone who has experience in a combat zone knows they happen. I am guilty of letting my emotions feed into my thoughts on this. I served at a time when we had basically 400,000 troops in Europe to counter the soviet threat. Plus all the armor, artillery, aircraft, munitions and support structure. We paid this for years, plus the training, practice, and transport of all of it. What I see happening now is the final flush of that turd and getting the bargain of the century to do it. I get that it is a dramatically different military now, but from this old russia hating old man's eyes it sure seems like a bargain. We get to turn over old stocks, replace with new and bill Ukraine (russia) for it. We get to test new stuff, and evaluate other military designs in a same use environment. We can showcase our stuff, and get contracts for it from other nations. I guess I don't get that we are supposed to be prepared to eventually counter this threat, and there should be ample supply of munitions to do so, as well as counter threats in asia. That's the whole point of financing a standing military, isn't it? How do we bill Ukraine? Or is your proposition that we exchange our arms for mineral rights on captured territory? Ok I take everything back. The money is being used partially to replenish our own stocks with new stuff? Should we replenish old stocks because we need them? Or should we just sit on old crap that works 70% of the time like Russia and just pay down our debt? Ukraine has nothing to do with our debt. It’s a pittance compared to all the other spending. Seriously I’m seeing some logical issues with your argument. Never met a logistics guy worrying about our debt in war. The aid Ukraine is getting from us is just a drop In the bucket from our national defense budget. It's not putting us in a fiscal bind. My opinion it's the best investment our gov has done in decades for our national defense Aside from weakening Russia, this War has really re-habbed the image of the US abroad in a major way. It's a major PR / 'soft power' coup for us. How long the glow will last? Probably not long enough. But for the first time in my post Iraq memory, I'm seeing foreigners extolling America as pretty cool to Awesome, and a force for good in the world. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 1:43:59 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: I may have worded that poorly because you missed my intended point, I'll restate. The point wasn't that we can't build the systems faster than the missiles, The point was that we are having a slow time producing enough GMLRS to back fill what we're giving Ukraine and giving them even more launchers would make that bottleneck even worse. We've let our PGM production surge capacity go to shit and it's been a known thing in my specialty since at least 2017. I'm not an Arty guy so maybe R0N can cover that but I can't imagine they'd be much better than us on the logistical side. Side question: Were you at Langley by chance? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Originally Posted By Kagetora: Put your bingo card away. You didn't win. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Maybe apples to basketballs. It's a big difference between building a HIMARS system and building ammo for it to shoot. Ask me how I know. It'd be from trying to build military aircraft, including F-22's, vs building what they poop out of their hatches. I won't argue that we've let shit slip as far as our manufacturing goes...but I'll happily contest the idea that we can't build ammo as fast as we can build complex platforms to launch it. I may have worded that poorly because you missed my intended point, I'll restate. The point wasn't that we can't build the systems faster than the missiles, The point was that we are having a slow time producing enough GMLRS to back fill what we're giving Ukraine and giving them even more launchers would make that bottleneck even worse. We've let our PGM production surge capacity go to shit and it's been a known thing in my specialty since at least 2017. I'm not an Arty guy so maybe R0N can cover that but I can't imagine they'd be much better than us on the logistical side. Side question: Were you at Langley by chance? Nope. I've never been that cool. Hell, I've never been cool a day in my life. My point is that we could ramp up missile production MUCH faster than we could ramp up platform production. Exponentially faster. If we left ourselves 75% of our platforms, and a much smaller percentage of our ammo by providing the rest to Ukraine to obliterate Russian idiots, we'd be FAR ahead of the game. That's not even counting the potentially compatible missile ammo from our allies, i.e. South Korea, who don't seem to have the dipshits that we do running our military manufacturing complex at the moment. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/22/2022 1:45:27 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chaingun: That payload looked larger than a 30-40mm round Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chaingun: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Very short video of a homeade kamikaze drone hitting a Russian position. There seem to be 2 men in the position. https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/z1391l/ukrainian_drone_flies_right_into_the_russian/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb Looks like a block of HE with a ziplock bag full of ball bearings. Basically a DIY ghetto claymore. Not sure what the red tube is; maybe a M80 full of homemade primary explosive for initiating the HE? 
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Posted: 11/22/2022 1:46:55 AM EDT
[#41]
 
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Posted: 11/22/2022 1:50:53 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kagetora: Nope. I've never been that cool. Hell, I've never been cool a day in my life. My point is that we could ramp up missile production MUCH faster than we could ramp up platform production. Exponentially faster. If we left ourselves 75% of our platforms, and a much smaller percentage of our ammo by providing the rest to Ukraine to obliterate Russian idiots, we'd be FAR ahead of the game. That's not even counting the potentially compatible missile ammo from our allies, i.e. South Korea, who don't seem to have the dipshits that we do running our military manufacturing complex at the moment. Agreed, but we aren't ramping production up for some reason. We need to fix that, like now if only for self serving reasons. On my side of the house I'm hoping that the switch from Hellfire to JAGM will light a fire under somebodies ass but I've been around long enough to know that in the Army hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/22/2022 1:55:52 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By realwar: Ukrainian drone carrying a gasoline bomb. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/%2Fmethode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F132a07c4-d9de-11ec-8de3-573a6521e09e.jpg?crop=4751%2C2672%2C374%2C570&resize=1500 I've been waiting 9 months for them to deploy those impact activated, self igniting molotovs from drones.  Self igniting Molotov cocktail test |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 11/22/2022 2:02:00 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Agreed, but we aren't ramping production up for some reason. We need to fix that, like now if only for self serving reasons. On my side of the house I'm hoping that the switch from Hellfire to JAGM will light a fire under somebodies ass but I've been around long enough to know that in the Army hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. We can likely build precision weapon systems just as fast as half finished F-150's. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 2:04:13 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Agreed, but we aren't ramping production up for some reason. We need to fix that, like now if only for self serving reasons. On my side of the house I'm hoping that the switch from Hellfire to JAGM will light a fire under somebodies ass but I've been around long enough to know that in Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Originally Posted By Kagetora: Nope. I've never been that cool. Hell, I've never been cool a day in my life. My point is that we could ramp up missile production MUCH faster than we could ramp up platform production. Exponentially faster. If we left ourselves 75% of our platforms, and a much smaller percentage of our ammo by providing the rest to Ukraine to obliterate Russian idiots, we'd be FAR ahead of the game. That's not even counting the potentially compatible missile ammo from our allies, i.e. South Korea, who don't seem to have the dipshits that we do running our military manufacturing complex at the moment. Agreed, but we aren't ramping production up for some reason. We need to fix that, like now if only for self serving reasons. On my side of the house I'm hoping that the switch from Hellfire to JAGM will light a fire under somebodies ass but I've been around long enough to know that in FIFY. Yeah, I get it. I'd counter with, again, the idea that we CAN ramp up production of the missiles much faster than the platforms. We WILL, when there's no other option, like America always does. No one is coming to our shores. If PRC gets froggy and goes after Taiwan, unfortunately it'll end up like Ukraine, where we slow-roll munitions in, because we're stupid, divided, and short-sighted. The Taiwanese will suffer badly, and possibly even be lost. A large part of that will be our fault. And 90% of the population here won't give two rat fucks, because they're still eating Cheetos and playing XBox. Our government knows we're safe. We have a REAL nuclear arsenal, that we maintain and can use. No one is going to invade the US, to the point we're relying on HIMARS and whatever missiles for it we can scrounge. That's ludicrous. What we're doing, what we do every day, is fail our allies and potential allies, and let our enemies get stronger. We should stop that by supplying said allies with the shit they need, all they need, to weaken our enemies. Your life, your family's lives, are not going to end at the point of a Russian or Chinese bayonet because we didn't have enough HIMARS missiles. They'll end from a nuclear exchange, a terrorist attack (foreign or domestic) that takes down the grid you rely on, or a natural catastrophe like a CME or a gamma-ray burst. Or an alien invasion or Yellowstone exploding, whatever. No one is coming here. No one is threatening our shores. We have trillions of dollars of wasted shit lying about for nothing. Let's use it for it's intended purposes, and re-stock later for the next proxy war somewhere else. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 2:06:40 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By merick: We can likely build precision weapon systems just as fast as half finished F-150's. I was on the receiving end of a PGM shortage during OIR, you have way more faith in the system than I do. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 2:17:31 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: I was on the receiving end of a PGM shortage during OIR, you have way more faith in the system than I do. Since you’re here…
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Posted: 11/22/2022 2:28:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Kagetora]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: I was on the receiving end of a PGM shortage during OIR, you have way more faith in the system than I do. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Originally Posted By merick: We can likely build precision weapon systems just as fast as half finished F-150's. I was on the receiving end of a PGM shortage during OIR, you have way more faith in the system than I do. Apologies, and thanks for your service. That said, for better or worse, FJB fucked up our withdrawal from Afghanistan, but that means we aren't currently embroiled in a poorly managed, unwinnable-because-of-rules overseas conflict at the moment. If we're smart, we'll keep out of them for a while. In the meantime, why not flood our allies with good shit to keep them alive and our enemies, the enemies THEY CHOSE TO BE AND CONTINUE TO PROFESS TO BEING, dying? Wiping them out in Ukraine might actually prevent a wider conflict from starting. NOT doing so could cause the opposite, embroiling more countries in the war. Again, no one is rafting over here to take the West Coast. SKorea is fine. Japan is fine. Israel is fine. NATO counties are fine. We're fine. Let's fuck up Russia while we have the chance, and make China think three times before doing ANYTHING. The Norks are a wildcard, not much you can do there to prepare, or worry. Iran is barely a step above that. If they get stupid and chaos kicks loose because of them, we'd be no worse off than before. They either nuke us or our allies, or our allies wipe the floor with them with our aid, even if it's less than it could have been due to what we pump into Ukraine. |
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Posted: 11/22/2022 2:29:15 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Since you’re here…
Flying and flare deployment (they have to manually launch flares no automatic system like ours) is on point, looks like they're both Mi-8's so it's not any of the dudes I trained unless they swapped their 24's out. Either way makes me proud. Those rockets on the other hand, where they ended up is anybody's guess. It's just harassment fire at that point. Not sure if it's feasible or not (although after their employment of HARM's on their MIGs I'm optimistic) but if they could figure out a way to strap some Brimstones onto those birds and started doing remote fires with dudes on the ground designating for them they'd be way more effective and could functionally act as a very effective anti-anything on the ground QRF. |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 11/22/2022 2:32:11 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: I was on the receiving end of a PGM shortage during OIR, you have way more faith in the system than I do. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Originally Posted By merick: We can likely build precision weapon systems just as fast as half finished F-150's. I was on the receiving end of a PGM shortage during OIR, you have way more faith in the system than I do. That is to say a warehouse of useless incomplete PGM waiting for parts is easily achieveable by our modern manufacturing and supply systems. |
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