User Panel
Posted: 6/2/2008 6:31:56 PM EDT
I am curious about the Masons. I always hear about former presidents being masons, but i hear bad things about them too. what are they about? how do you become one? should you become one?
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eta - Freemasonry is not a religion, for we welcome men from all religions into our Lodge (alas, no atheists). There is no path to salvation to be found in Masonry. Most of the "bad things" you hear are pure B.S. |
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If you don't know any Masons that are willing to sponsor you, contact your local lodge and explain your situation to the secretary (or whoever answers the phone).
Look up some of the Masonic charities such as the Shrine or Scottish Rite Hospitals to gain a favorable impression of the craft. The burn & orthopedic centers, for instance, don't even have a billing department. |
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C'mon, I know there are other Masons around here. Some may even be eloquent. Me, I'm a software guy so talking ain't one of my strong points.
However, until someone else shows up - Yes, there is an initiation. Minimum of 3 to be considered a Master Mason. There is no sport, no intentional embarrassment, no harm will come to you (some jokers still like to make cracks about riding goats and etc. This doesn't happen). In the process you will be assured that your family and work comes before Masonry. It's not meant to take away from any of those, to the contrary it tends to make one a better husband, father, citizen. Some details of the process are readily available to anyone who wishes to look, but you aren't going to get them out of a Mason. Hearing or reading the words out of context would strip them of their beauty and diminish their meaning, so I'd strongly recommend not "cheating" to get the ritual beforehand. There are a few churches that are still opposed to Masonry, but as far as I can tell the primary objection is that we accept everyone as equals. Catholic, Baptist, UU, Druid, that one egyption thing, Muslim, Native American shamanistic, it doesn't matter, all are welcome. I've been lead to believe that this infuriates some that can't accept anyone following another religion. Around here religion and politics are not discussed in Lodge. Your religion is your business and your brothers religion is his. |
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Popcorn at the ready.
I have some very good friends who are Masons, and I respect those who take the craft seriously. |
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Really? What do you talk about then?
That is completely opposite of what the Bible and Jesus Christ teaches. |
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Lodge business, charity, sick and hurt, etc.
That's a church matter and not relevant to an organization that doesn't claim to be religious. |
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The best description of Freemasonry that I have ever heard: "Freemasonry is a system of morals, veiled in allegory." And: "While religion seeks to take a bad man and make him better, Freemasonry seeks to take a good man and make him better."
We use symbolism to teach men how to be better men. Not from a religious aspect, but to be more honest and charitable in their daily lives. It does have many similarities to things you would find in a religion. We focus on charity, community service, taking care of our families, maintaining honesty and integrity in all of our doings. Masonry does not offer a path to salvation. If that is what you are seeking, I would encourage you to find the religion of your choice to worship in. We do require a belief in a Supreme Being, but what you choose to call him/her/it and how you choose to worship are your business. We accept all faiths on equal ground, because we are not a religious institution. We use the term Supreme Being to not exclude anyones particular beliefs. As suggested by some, it is not a term for the "Masonic God". Masonry should never conflict with any duties you owe to God. I know Masons who are Christian (many denominations), Jewish and Muslim. For those well versed in either LDS or Masonic history you understand the rocky background they have. Being raised LDS, I have found nothing that would conflict with any of the teachings of my religion. Our business meetings are really not that interesting. They are just that, business. We talk about paying our bills, we vote on by-law changes, and we vote on the petitions of new members. We do plan for upcoming charity events, scheduling for the actual initiation and advancement degrees, and address any issues a brother may be having (death in the family, illness, out of work) so that we may assist in any way possible. If you have any further questions feel free to IM or e-mail me. I can also put you in contact with the secretary of a lodge near you who would also be happy to answer any questions you may have. I hesitate to leave this in this forum as it really isn't a "religion" discussion. Hopefully Hardshell will check in soon to give his opinion. Being a Mason I am a bit biased here. I've seen how these discussion generally head downhill quick, but for the time please remember which forum it is currently being discussed in and conduct yourselves accordingly. |
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I guess my question would be, why a follower of Jesus Christ would have a need to even become a Mason?
Can the Masonic Lodge make me into a better person over and above what Jesus Christ becoming the Lord of my life is able to do? I see no other light other than the life that is found in Jesus Christ. Jesus said “I am the light of the world, he that follows after Me shall not walk in darkness but shall have the light of life” I guess I don’t understand why a man redeemed by Jesus would need anything else to make Him a “better man”. |
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I read on another forum, from someone claiming to be a Freemason, that each member is given a King James bible and told they must know it well. He also stated that the organization was started to unify all Christian denominations, and that "Masonry is a very Christian organization in my state." This guy's comments make Freemasonry sound pretty religious. Is this a regional thing, since he said "in my state"? Or is this just referring to the fact that the Freemasons share many ideals with Christianity? I'm not trying to be difficult - just curious, since I know very little about Freemasonry. |
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Why are yu part of Arfcom? You won't top Jesus by being here. |
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I was given a copy of the Bible when I received my Master Mason degree because it was the book used in my degree. Depending on location, it could be a Torah or Koran. To be honest I don't remember which version it is. I was given no such instructions to read it and study it. Freemasonry does share many ideals with Christianity, but they aren't anything earth shattering. As I mentioned, we focus on charity, integrity, honesty, etc. Those are hardly ideals reserved for religion only. It's just about being a good person.
The roots of Masonry are indeed very Christian, but the same can be said of many other non-religious organizations. I remember praying at Boy Scouts and it was not a religious organization where I was at. To try and answer T1NMAN's question, I believe that Freemasonry complements my religion. When I go to church it reminds me of the things I should be doing right in my life. Freemasonry does the same. Freemasonry presents me with opportunities to interact with people of similar moral character. It provides opportunities to do charitable works. I know many people who go to church weekly and study the scriptures regularly but have never done ten minutes of charity work. |
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someone (not a mason) told me that part of the initiation process is taking a "blood oath". Is this true?
also, they said that Masons operate on degrees. 1st degree, 2nd degree etc. and that the lower degree never knows anything about the higher ones. True/false? |
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No blood oath. The degrees are Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft and Master Mason. The purpose of the degrees is to teach moral lessons through various pieces of symbolism. Anything you ever wanted to know about the degrees can be found with Google. We don't generally discuss the degrees with candidates because the lessons lose value if they know what to expect. You could easily progress through the degrees in 4-6 weeks if you were inclined. This varies by jurisdiction. I've heard of some that do all three degrees in one day. We hold all of our business meetings on the Entered Apprentice degree so our new guys feel welcome and a part of the lodge. |
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Not really a blood oath, but there are "obligations" or oaths you assume with each degree.
Freemasonry is what you make of it. You find what you seek. |
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http://news.scotsman.com/freemasonry/Gun-blunder-kills-mason.2510602.jp
(Sorry about the edit, hit the wrong button. medicmandan) |
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A Mason told me that their degree progression is like Boy Scouts for older guys, but more rooted in life, and much more rewarding.
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I have no idea what that article is talking about. There is a sword present, but never have I seen a firearm in either the Blue Lodge or the Scottish Rite. I can't think of a ritual that would ... Weird.
No it's not. Might be incompatible with your idea of Christianity, but not with a very great number of other Christians. Of course, it's difficult for anyone to tear apart an argument as well put together as that. |
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I remember that article. I don't know what they were doing, but they weren't performing any Masonic ceremony that I am aware of. I'm not well traveled but have seen degree work in several states, none of which included a firearm or any other kind of weapon. A sword is sometimes carried by the Tyler (sometimes it is 3" and worn around his neck) to signify his office. He symbolically guards the doors to the lodge room from cowans and eavesdroppers. The one I have wouldn't cut warm butter though. |
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As I recall the N shooting incident was related to a fellowcraft club of sorts and some homespun ritual that was part of that lodge. the grand master of Ohio at the time knee jerked and issued an edict banning guns in all ohio masonic buildings. made it difficult for some lodges with DeMolay chapters that had airgun ranges in their basements as I recall.
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I guess that’s kind of my point.
Going to church, doing good works, becoming a member of a secret society all amount to nothing when it comes to a mans relationship with his Creator. The only way to know God the Father is through his Son Jesus Christ. If a secret society says, Bring your preferred way(religion) well mix it with our way (good works) and it will show you the way.( a hidden truth) I must disagree! Jesus said “I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life, no man can come to the Father but by Me” Jesus said to his followers “you are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light unto all that are in the house” Mat 5 vs. 14-15 You men that follow after Jesus Christ don’t need to hid anything behind closed doors. On the contrary, burn brightly that all might see Christ Jesus in you. The Bible doesn’t share truth with the Koran, Torah, or any other religious book. The Bible stands alone as the word of God. If you want fellowship with men, join the volunteer fire department. If you want Truth follow after Jesus Christ and him alone. And if you don’t have a relationship with Christ no amount of church going or good works doing will bring you the peace that only Christ can bring. As the song says; On Christ the solid Rock I stand all other Ground is sinking sand. |
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Of course when I say "the Bible does not share truth with the Torah", I mean that in the sense that the Torah is not the finished word of God. Since the Torah is the first five books of the Bible. |
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And that has always been my opinion on the issue as well. Free, open organizations > secret societies. |
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Sorry, I was "out sick" for a few days. Better now. Better late than never, I guess, but I think the conversation subsequent to your comment above has displayed that there are some valid religious issues to be discussed with this topic -- (1) some folks believe that secret societies are religions or religion-like; (2) some of the rites do bear resemblances to religious rituals [or so I am told]; and (3) some religious doctrines/denominations do not approve of [or even forbid altogether, in some cases] membership in secret societies. I personally see no reason not to continue the discussion here as long as it done in a respectful manner, and my sincere hope is that it shall be. |
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medicmandan, how do you reconcile, or explain, the incredible similarities between Masonry and the Mormon temple ceremony? |
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Why? While I admit that the extent of my masonry knowledge is pretty much in this thread, I don't see why it would be incompatible. Is masonry a 'secret society?' Or just one that chooses to admit whom they see fit- one that's willing to take certain pledges- kind of like the Boy Scouts or a members only country club. I don't see freemasons as trying to help you find salvation, so I don't see that as conflicting with Christian belief that salvation is only through Christ. The way I'm hearing it explained is that the freemasons help (a bit more seriously than some organizations) a person to carry out those virtues (charity, good works, etc) in an organized manner, that are consistent with a belief in God. Like I said though.... I don't know anything much about freemasonry, nor do I personally know any masons. I think. |
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It interests me & I am an officer for a Christian Mission organization. I don't see anything wrong with it, to the contrary it seems like a great way to make sure your time spent volunteering is being productive. The work with children in medical need is a great outreach and I'd love to be a part of that. I cannot see how Jesus would find fault in such a thing.
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The best explanation I can give is that they both claim the origins of their ceremonies to be from the time of King Solomon's Temple. I've read the stories that Joseph Smith stole the ceremonies and adapted them to the LDS temple ordinances. According to the time line I've seen, the temple ceremonies were adopted four years before Joseph Smith was initiated as a Mason. |
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I've seen some objections based on the Lodge entreating men to lead an upright and good life. Salvation based on deeds rather than faith, it is said (falsely, since your road to salvation with your god isn't being challenged, just the life you lead in your mortal flesh). Also, admitting men of other beliefs as equals has been known to annoy.
MasonicInfo has many of the objections as well as rebuttals. I wonder if those who dislike Masonry are also opposed to the BPOE? |
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B_H and PBIR have both summed up my personal feelings.
I view FreeMasonry much as I view Boy Scouts, except that FreeMasonry is for adults. Participating in Boy Scouts wasn't any kind of substitute for Christianity. The BSA is an organization for helping young men develop good character and it provides them with opportunities to serve their fellow man. As I suggested before, I view FreeMasonry in a very similar light as I see the BSA, except for adults. In that sense it strikes me as complimentary of Christianity. I am not a FreeMason, but I haven't found any legitimate reasons to criticize them as an organization. |
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Additionally, it must be noted that (with respect to the LDS temple ceremony), there is a difference between the endowment and the ritual that is used to present it. The ritual may be and has been changed in accordance with societal and cultural needs. People in different time periods will relate to different symbols and methods of teaching. The endowment however, remains the same. Components of the ritual are similar to many elements found in Masonry, but the meanings are very different. I think this is getting beyond the original scope of the thread, so I'll stop here. |
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Or the Royal Order of Water Buffaloes? |
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More accurately, it's the apparent unfinished work viewed by Christians. For Jews, it's complete. |
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Exactly. The Elks have secret signs and sponsor many charities plus they have a great bar and ... er, some other stuff that may or may not be in exact conformity with perfectly upstanding morals, yet the outcry against us (Elks) is nearly nonexistent, thank goodness. I don't see many differences between the assorted fraternal organizations, yet it's only Freemasonry that gets accused of cavorting with Baphomet. Frankly, I was disappointed when I reached the 32nd degree and never received a call from Bush asking how to structure the UN. :) |
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Wyzardd, is Free Masonry open to Jews? Thanks! Ed |
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[chuckles] |
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Certainly. Atheist Jews not so much, but the belief in a supreme being is about the whole of the religious requirement (IIRC) |
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i have been a mason for just over a year. i recently went through my second degree and and working toward my master. <many people do this in a matter of a few months>
i have taken my time and disected the degrees and lessons as far as i could before moving on. I have learned some great things in the process. 1st masonry is NOT a religion. it does use some references to religious events to covey lessons in morality and self improvement. Many believe these to be judeo christian in nature but in general they could have come from any religous text. Masonry requires a belief in a supreme diety. that is all. who/what that is is up to the individual. They ,in my experience, do not attempt to shape your religious beliefs in any way shape or form. we do have prayer and in our lodge it is christian in nature. IMHO masonry is 100% compatible with christianity. yes i have found a few things through personal research which may challenge the teachings of some churchs, they do not however change my faith. these are not "mysterious" in nature and are generally the same things you can find anywhere researching biblical history. Morality/faith is not in the details of the history. Keeping an open mind and continuing to learn is the key here. i found some things that on the surface would disturb some devout people. until i kept going and the full story was found. Then it was clear and not "heretical" at all. i feel this is the problem some have with masonry. they get challenged and turn away without looking into what is really being said/shown. NONE of this was taught in lodge, these were things i learned and found by deeply studying the ritual and work on my own. there really are some wonderful lessons there to be learned IF you have the persistance and open mind to do it. it has be said to me many times... masonry is what you put into it. that is exactly right. it can be a deep philosphocal journey, or just a night out with the guys, the path is up to the individual. one of the great things i have found is this. when you encounter another mason outside in the real world. not even knowing their name you know you have a brother that you can generally trust. you know what they have been through and atleast a basic cursory check has been done to insure they are decent people. masonry is one of the few organizastions i have found where people actually not only try to uphold their obligations to each other, they actively police it. part of me joined for the esoteric spooky stuff/curiosity part of me, for some personal development. I have found both although not what i expected. it's been a wonderful journey so far. mike |
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Good post. Thanks |
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Without getting into the Occult symbolism or Masonic teachings that go against the Bible.
I guess my question to Christian Masons remains the same. What can becoming a Mason do for me that simply following after Jesus Christ can not do? Can Christian Mason become more enlightened than a non-Mason Christian? If they cant what’s the point? If they can what is it that the simply being a follower of Jesus leaves out that Masonry corrects? |
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Following your logic, it would then be a waste of time to do anything outside of church/worship. Can a Christian Big Brother become more enlightened than a non-Big Brother Christian? If he can't then what's the point? Can a Christian volunteer baseball coach become more enlightened than a non-volunteer baseball coach Christian? If he can't, then what's the point? What can becoming a Big Brother or a volunteer baseball coach do for me that simply following after Jesus Christ cannot do? I'm not a Mason. I simply disagree with your animosity towards Masonry. |
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I know a man man that is the Worshipful Master of his lodge, that title is a little strange to me.
I do acknowledge that the masons do a lot of very good things though |
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Windknot makes some good points.
I have been doing a little research on them, and this one person keeps coming up in my studies. His name is Manley P. Hall. He says he was one of the highest Masons, and got out because he found out the "true meaning" (his words) of the Freemasons. He says they are Luciferans. Why would a former Mason who has given most of his life to them, say that? Makes me wonder. Alot of their symbols supposedly have "dark" meaning to them as well. |
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Of Mr. Hall -
The closest I've ever seen to an officially sanctioned book (besides the Bible) is one written by Albert Pike, "Morals and Dogma", which is usually the one people refer to when making claims of "Luciferism" (or whatever it's called). Pike was Scottish Rite and Morals and Dogma was, I hear, once given through them and not the Blue Lodge. (note: "Blue Lodge" refers to the first three degrees, or those that make a Master Mason. There is no higher degree that a Mason can obtain, the appendent bodies such as the Scottish or York rite are not "above" a Master Mason, regardless of their numbering system. I speak as a 32nd degree Scottish Rite (SJ), although I cannot presume to speak for all Freemasonry) In any event, there is no one individual who speaks for Freemasonry. In the US each state has its own Grand Lodge, none of which are subservient to any other. Not even to the Grand Lodge of England. If the Colorado Grand Lodge decided to worship Satan, that would have no reflection on the other US Grand Lodges, much less those around the world. |
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so the diffrent chapters or lodges dont share the same doctrine? |
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they share similar base philosphies but it's really up to the grand lodge in general for such things. i have travelled to a few local lodges here and while similar they each their own personalities. for record we have a baptists and a methodist minister in our lodge. they are both very devout men and have no issues. what can masonry do for you the church can't? well they both present moral doctrine and teachings. the best i can explain is to say the church teaches spiratual lessons to save your soul. Freemasonry teaches you to be a better person in this life to serve your community and fellow man and by leading a good life, and combined with your faith and religion get you to heaven. Similar yet different. freemasonry from my experience does NOT influence or teach religion in any way shape or form. that is left to you and your church. What they do teach, if you study it, is how to think and stand for yourself as a freeman. How to recieve information which may challenge your beliefs and not turn away in fear. Education is the name of the game. You can't learn and grow without it. Information itself is neither good nor evil, you can't make informed descision or see the true picture of things if you ignore 1/2 the story becuase it makes you uncomfortable. Religion in my experience teaches you to turn away from such things to prevent any challenge that may change your perception of what their doctorin teaches. this cheats the people out of "the whole story". if the lessons here disurb you or shake your faith, you didn't have faith to begin with. it's simply a fraternity thats been around a long time. the rituals are a bit archaic as they have existed since before the 1300's <depending on who you believe here> these guys donate 100's of millions of dollars a year to children's healthcare and welfare nation/worldwide. I had the honor of getting one of our own arfcom members in touch with the shrine when his nephew was severely burned. they charged them nothing for his care. if i am going to hell for associating with such people, so be it. freemasons DO make the world a better place for those in need. |
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i have found some "issues" with pike and his work but thats another discussion |
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