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Posted: 7/20/2021 9:26:34 AM EDT
[#1]
No.
But I also think that both pre and post trib rapture is false, that verse doesn’t change my mind. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 9:40:27 AM EDT
[#2]
Here is one from the Song of Solomon.
Song of Solomon 2 King James Version 2 I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys. 2 As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters. 3 As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste. 4 He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love. 5 Stay me with flagons, comfort me with apples: for I am sick of love. 6 His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me. 7 I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, by the roes, and by the hinds of the field, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please. 8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills. 9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice. 10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. 11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; 12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; 13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 9:41:18 AM EDT
[#3]
Interesting. Isaiah also foretold the coming of Jesus, 700 years before His birth.
https://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Isaiah |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 9:51:57 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Isaiah 57:1,2 1. The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. 2. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death. I've read through the Bible many times and have never associated these verses with the rapture. A lot of prophetic verses in the Old Testament had/has a double fulfillment: some in the immediate future and others in the distant. To those who believe the rapture is Biblical doctrine, what are your thoughts on these verses? Isaiah is a great book. It’s worth spending lots of time studying it. I once heard a old pastor call it the Bible within the Bible. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 9:59:11 AM EDT
[#5]
Isaiah is interesting because of its 3 distinct authors. But I always read it within its context of the Babylonian Captivity.
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Posted: 7/20/2021 10:06:37 AM EDT
[#6]
I just Googled that. Multiple sources have a different take. The rapture is a relatively new doctrine that became popular in the 1800's. For thousands of years before that, it was called other things, like the 2nd coming, the day of the Lord etc. I always go back to 1 Thess. chp. 4 which is pretty clear on what happens to the righteous whether dead or alive at the day Jesus comes back and where they were when it happens. ymmv
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Posted: 7/20/2021 10:14:16 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Isaiah 57:1,2 1. The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. 2. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death. I've read through the Bible many times and have never associated these verses with the rapture. A lot of prophetic verses in the Old Testament had/has a double fulfillment: some in the immediate future and others in the distant. To those who believe the rapture is Biblical doctrine, what are your thoughts on these verses? I thought there was a religion sub forum? We have a politics sub forum now and threads get shuffled into there. Why aren't religious threads moved into the correct area? |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 10:14:31 AM EDT
[#8]
Interesting, could be, but could also mean something else. The rapture is Biblical but to me the main contention is between pre and post trib positions. Good arguments on either side, I hope pre-trib is true, but there’s too much vague allusions and jumping through hoops to get there, post-trib to me is the more “literal“ reading imo. And this is from someone who grew up on Hal Lindsey and Clarence Larkin. Also a Chuck Missler fan, and I agree with a lot of his interpretations btw.
 The Tribulation and the Rapture - Dr. Walter Martin (Historic Premillennial) |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 10:19:36 AM EDT
[#9]
Topic Moved
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Posted: 7/20/2021 10:24:06 AM EDT
[#10]
Religious censorship on display. ymmv
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Posted: 7/20/2021 10:29:21 AM EDT
[#11]
Rapture is biblical.
When, is the question. Pretrib is not possible, and you can prove it to yourself by answering these 3 questions from scripture. Who rises first? When do they rise? When it the Last Trumpet? |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 10:37:49 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Isaiah 57:1,2 1. The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. 2. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death. I've read through the Bible many times and have never associated these verses with the rapture. A lot of prophetic verses in the Old Testament had/has a double fulfillment: some in the immediate future and others in the distant. @BornIn1776 I'm going to place this here as a response to your question. It is applicable here just as much as it was in the other thread: In my opinion, studying the Bible shouldn't be seen as a mission of "discovery", but rather of understanding. Your job isn't to interpret the Bible; that's been done completely and accurately over the last 2000 years by His Church. Your job is to read the verses, learn/see its interpretations, and reflect on the messages. Too many people today think God gave them His Word to discern it or to "solve the riddle" of His Word. That's been done already, and one man alone can't do it anyway. The Word isn't yours to "unravel", but to "understand". Do you really think you've stumbled upon something that some of the greatest Catholic, Protestant, and secular minds in History have failed to "discover" over the last 2000 years? |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 10:50:41 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rapture is biblical. When, is the question. Pretrib is not possible, and you can prove it to yourself by answering these 3 questions from scripture. Who rises first? When do they rise? When it the Last Trumpet? The pre-trib argument would be that these are separate trumpets and separate resurrections of believers vs Old Testament saints. What is specifically described in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 is the “catching up” and meeting Christ in the clouds, which is different in some respects than the descriptions of the Second Coming, and can happen at any time (doctrine of imminency) whereas certain events must unfold for the Second Coming to happen. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 10:59:41 AM EDT
[#14]
To attempt an argument for the Biblical nature of the Rapture using Scripture is futile. It requires a suspension of reason, a denial of too much contradictory Scripture, and a historically incongruent application of theology.
It is a new and a man-made doctrine instituted to fill a gap created by the problem that Once Saved Always Saved adherents encountered when attempting to reconcile the "sealing" of God's promise, and their misunderstanding of a requisite tribulation. Henry Rothchild, who is himself a believer in the Rapture and in OSAS, has an excellent book that demonstrates the need for a doctrine of the Rapture, and its evolution. Once Saved Always Saved, The Secret Rapture, The Prosperity Gospel - Seeker Sensitive Doctrines That Can Take You To Hell, The Biblical Truth Revealed |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 11:03:10 AM EDT
[#15]
I believe in the Rapture.
And very soon we will all find out if true. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 11:16:57 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @BornIn1776 I'm going to place this here as a response to your question. It is applicable here just as much as it was in the other thread: In my opinion, studying the Bible shouldn't be seen as a mission of "discovery", but rather of understanding. Your job isn't to interpret the Bible; that's been done completely and accurately over the last 2000 years by His Church. Your job is to read the verses, learn/see its interpretations, and reflect on the messages. Too many people today think God gave them His Word to discern it or to "solve the riddle" of His Word. That's been done already, and one man alone can't do it anyway. The Word isn't yours to "unravel", but to "understand". Do you really think you've stumbled upon something that some of the greatest Catholic, Protestant, and secular minds in History have failed to "discover" over the last 2000 years? Happens all the time. The pharisees would have said the same thing in the days of Jesus’s ministry. Yet he admonished people for not recognizing his coming. Basically you’re saying once again “don’t think for yourself”, “don’t study the Bible”, “trust the plan”, etc. It’s getting old |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 11:19:10 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rapture is biblical. When, is the question. Pretrib is not possible, and you can prove it to yourself by answering these 3 questions from scripture. Who rises first? When do they rise? When it the Last Trumpet? You might want to reread those passages again..... 
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Posted: 7/20/2021 11:24:37 AM EDT
[#18]
I think there is a new problem in GD (maybe I missed the new rule) when somebody can complain about a topic and force the mod to move it to another forum just because they don't like the topic. It religious descremination right in our face and I'm surprised nobody picked up on it. There was nothing wrong with this topic being in GD. ymmv
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Posted: 7/20/2021 11:30:17 AM EDT
[#19]
Ezekiel 13:20
The English from Hebrew kind of is poor but it basically reads people bind God's outreaching saving arms by teaching them fly away Doctrine |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 11:37:43 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To attempt an argument for the Biblical nature of the Rapture using Scripture is futile. It requires a suspension of reason, a denial of too much contradictory Scripture, and a historically incongruent application of theology. It is a new and a man-made doctrine instituted to fill a gap created by the problem that Once Saved Always Saved adherents encountered when attempting to reconcile the "sealing" of God's promise, and their misunderstanding of a requisite tribulation. Henry Rothchild, who is himself a believer in the Rapture and in OSAS, has an excellent book that demonstrates the need for a doctrine of the Rapture, and its evolution. Once Saved Always Saved, The Secret Rapture, The Prosperity Gospel - Seeker Sensitive Doctrines That Can Take You To Hell, The Biblical Truth Revealed If you don’t believe in it, why don’t you see you’re way out of the thread? But you are incorrect to say it isn’t Biblical, there is a specific event or set of events spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15, Matthew 24, Revelation and other places that lead to these interpretations. Just because Catholicism and other denominations choose to allegorize and diminish every piece of prophetic scripture doesn’t mean you should dump all over other views that differ. Another great osas conspiracy. You sound like the cults that blame everything on the Council of Nicea I’m trying to have patience with you brother, but you’ve proven yourself to be an instigator and for some reason you have a hatred for those who believe in eternal security, preservation of the saints, “osas” as you call it. Why I don’t know, have these followers of Christ done anything to hurt you? |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 11:39:47 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Basically you’re saying once again “don’t think for yourself”, “don’t study the Bible”, “trust the plan”, etc. It’s getting old That's not what I'm saying at all. It's from studying the Bible that I, and 99% of all Christians, know the Rapture is a false doctrine. But, you do you. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 11:43:37 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m trying to have patience with you brother, but you’ve proven yourself to be an instigator and for some reason you have a hatred for those who believe in eternal security, preservation of the saints, “osas” as you call it. Why I don’t know, have these followers of Christ done anything to hurt you? Wow, this is self-righteousness and hubris at an astounding level. Please let me know, through your "patient" grace, when I will be allowed to post in threads in this sub forum. I was not aware this was your perview. Indeed, please forgive me for posting a theological opinion in a forum dedicated to discussion of religion. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 11:46:32 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think there is a new problem in GD (maybe I missed the new rule) when somebody can complain about a topic and force the mod to move it to another forum just because they don't like the topic. It religious descremination right in our face and I'm surprised nobody picked up on it. There was nothing wrong with this topic being in GD. ymmv Hey, I understand but mods can move topics to the appropriate sub forums. This seemed like a more in depth religious thread and probably deserved more respect than you would get in GD. A good GD thread title would be “look at the news, the rapture is coming” or something. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 11:50:08 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wow, this is self-righteousness and hubris at an astounding level. Please let me know, through your "patient" grace, when I will be allowed to post in threads in this sub forum. I was not aware this was your perview. Indeed, please forgive me for posting a theological opinion in a forum dedicated to discussion of religion. Yeah, right. Get back to me when I jump into every Catholic discussion over internal theology and matters, to try and push my Protestantism. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 11:52:51 AM EDT
[#25]
you can't reason people out of a position they did not reason themselves into.
IS 26:19 through 27:1 the dead shall live, then the people of God will enter into their bridal chamber for a little while until the punishment of the LORD is accomplished on the earth Clearly pre-judgment resurrection |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 12:01:06 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, right. Get back to me when I jump into every Catholic discussion over internal theology and matters, to try and push my Protestantism. You're free to "jump into every Catholic discussion" if you so see fit. If you were ever to introduce and defend any educated and reasonable assertions that led to prime discussion, then it would be welcomed. Until then, you can still add your 2 cents. Just don't expect inaccuracies and self-formulated doctrines to go unchallenged. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 12:40:05 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: you can't reason people out of a position they did not reason themselves into. IS 26:19 through 27:1 the dead shall live, then the people of God will enter into their bridal chamber for a little while until the punishment of the LORD is accomplished on the earth Clearly pre-judgment resurrection |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 12:41:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're free to "jump into every Catholic discussion" if you so see fit. If you were ever to introduce and defend any educated and reasonable assertions that led to prime discussion, then it would be welcomed. Until then, you can still add your 2 cents. Just don't expect inaccuracies and self-formulated doctrines to go unchallenged. I don’t need the attention and don’t really have a bone to pick. Romans 14:10, 19 |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 12:42:26 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @BornIn1776 Do you really think you've stumbled upon something that some of the greatest Catholic, Protestant, and secular minds in History have failed to "discover" over the last 2000 years? |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 12:49:42 PM EDT
[#30]
Funny thing about The Bible. Some things don't seem to make sense until they need to.
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Posted: 7/20/2021 12:55:44 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 7/20/2021 12:58:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IS 26:19 through 27:1 the dead shall live, then the people of God will enter into their bridal chamber for a little while until the punishment of the LORD is accomplished on the earth Clearly pre-judgment resurrection Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed on it; the earth will conceal its slain no longer. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 1:02:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Isaiah 57:1,21. The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. 2. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death.I've read through the Bible many times and have never associated these verses with the rapture. A lot of prophetic verses in the Old Testament had/has a double fulfillment: some in the immediate future and others in the distant. To those who believe the rapture is Biblical doctrine, what are your thoughts on these verses? Post-Trib Rapture is completely biblical and in line with Catholic teaching, so yes, I support it. Pre/mid-trib is a concoction younger than some houses in America (which is to say, it's not old at all). |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 1:08:54 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What a foolish question, and why the bold font? Perhaps I should run around blindly yelling "Baa, Baa, Baa". This is most certainly not a foolish question, but rather very appropriate. I can't find, and feel free to show me if you can, any commentaries regardless of denomination that state, allude, or imply these verses have any correlation to your premise. As such, you are indeed "discovering" something no one else has asserted in a theological manner. Wouldn't that automatically be something that would give you pause? It's not about being a sheep, (and what's wrong with that anyway? When it comes Christ, is He not our shepherd?) it's about not "finding" any interpretations that could potentially alter a true doctrine. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 1:11:28 PM EDT
[#35]
I have never figured out why the Protestant denominations fell into this pre rapture theory. The part that is concerning is they think the earth goes on for another seven years of tribulation while those alive have a second chance of salvation. Where in the Bible does it say anything about seven years for any of this stuff. The word Rapture isn't even in the Bible.
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Posted: 7/20/2021 6:06:46 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have never figured out why the Protestant denominations fell into this pre rapture theory. The part that is concerning is they think the earth goes on for another seven years of tribulation while those alive have a second chance of salvation. Where in the Bible does it say anything about seven years for any of this stuff. The word Rapture isn't even in the Bible. The 70th week of Daniel. ‘Rapture’ from ‘rapturo’, the latin translation of the Greek ‘harpazo’ in 1Thess 4:17, or to be “caught up”. It’s Biblical |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 6:48:06 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 70th week of Daniel. ‘Rapture’ from ‘rapturo’, the latin translation of the Greek ‘harpazo’ in 1Thess 4:17, or to be “caught up”. It’s Biblical Unfortunately, it is only thought as Biblical when a perverse interpretation of Scripture is applied to faulty man-made doctrine begun by John Nelson Darby in the late 1800s. He's another one who suddenly "discovered" something no one else had seen in their 1800 years of Biblical scholarship, (not all mine) When Paul says “we who are alive,” he’s referring to those who are on Earth at the time of the Second Coming; see J. MacEvilly’s An Exposition of the Epistles of St. Paul and of the Catholic Epistles : "We who live." He speaks in the person of those who are to be alive at the day of judgment. In this verse, the apostle meets an error existing in the minds of the Thessalonians regarding the manner of the resurrection; they did not imagine that it would occur "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor.). They thought there would be in it a succession of time, and that those whose bodies were corrupted would be resuscitated more slowly; and hence, that they would see their deceased friends more tardily in glory. He removes this erroneous impression in this verse. He says “we who are alive,” not but he knew well, that he would not live till the day of judgment; but he wishes to teach us by his own example, always to keep in view and prepare for this great day, which virtually happens at our death (pp. 67-68). This is perhaps the simplest explanation without getting into the deep theology and linguistics behind (not all mine) At the heart of the Rapture is dispensationalism. This is the claim that the made to Israel in the Old Covenant (for a restored kingdom, a rebuilt temple, etc) have not been fulfilled, because the Jewish people rejected Christ as their king. When the Israelites rejected Jesus as their Messiah, Jesus instead instituted the Church in God's overall plan, but will return again to fulfill his promises to Israel for an earthly kingdom. "Catholics and the vast majority of Protestants believe instead that the Old Testament prophecies to the Israelites have been fulfilled in the Gospel. The Church is the new Israel, comprised of all Jewish People who followed Christ to receive the promises made to them and of Gentiles who were grafted onto? them to share in those promises." Christ did not come to establish an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly one: Romans 9:6—8, Romans 11:1, 15—20, John 18:36, Mark 7:5—13 and many more. The Church is the New Israel, and so the "Rapture" is not biblical. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 7:55:16 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @BornIn1776 I'm going to place this here as a response to your question. It is applicable here just as much as it was in the other thread: In my opinion, studying the Bible shouldn't be seen as a mission of "discovery", but rather of understanding. Your job isn't to interpret the Bible; that's been done completely and accurately over the last 2000 years by His Church. Your job is to read the verses, learn/see its interpretations, and reflect on the messages. Too many people today think God gave them His Word to discern it or to "solve the riddle" of His Word. That's been done already, and one man alone can't do it anyway. The Word isn't yours to "unravel", but to "understand". Do you really think you've stumbled upon something that some of the greatest Catholic, Protestant, and secular minds in History have failed to "discover" over the last 2000 years? The part in red...That's an extremely confident statement. I would change those two adverbs to "repeatedly and controversially" No opinion on pre-trib or post-trib and rapture isn't a term we use anyway. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 8:01:04 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfortunately, it is only thought as Biblical when a perverse interpretation of Scripture is applied to faulty man-made doctrine begun by John Nelson Darby in the late 1800s. He's another one who suddenly "discovered" something no one else had seen in their 1800 years of Biblical scholarship, (not all mine) When Paul says “we who are alive,” he’s referring to those who are on Earth at the time of the Second Coming; see J. MacEvilly’s An Exposition of the Epistles of St. Paul and of the Catholic Epistles : "We who live." He speaks in the person of those who are to be alive at the day of judgment. In this verse, the apostle meets an error existing in the minds of the Thessalonians regarding the manner of the resurrection; they did not imagine that it would occur "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor.). They thought there would be in it a succession of time, and that those whose bodies were corrupted would be resuscitated more slowly; and hence, that they would see their deceased friends more tardily in glory. He removes this erroneous impression in this verse. He says “we who are alive,” not but he knew well, that he would not live till the day of judgment; but he wishes to teach us by his own example, always to keep in view and prepare for this great day, which virtually happens at our death (pp. 67-68). This is perhaps the simplest explanation without getting into the deep theology and linguistics behind (not all mine) At the heart of the Rapture is dispensationalism. This is the claim that the made to Israel in the Old Covenant (for a restored kingdom, a rebuilt temple, etc) have not been fulfilled, because the Jewish people rejected Christ as their king. When the Israelites rejected Jesus as their Messiah, Jesus instead instituted the Church in God's overall plan, but will return again to fulfill his promises to Israel for an earthly kingdom. "Catholics and the vast majority of Protestants believe instead that the Old Testament prophecies to the Israelites have been fulfilled in the Gospel. The Church is the new Israel, comprised of all Jewish People who followed Christ to receive the promises made to them and of Gentiles who were grafted onto? them to share in those promises." Christ did not come to establish an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly one: Romans 9:6—8, Romans 11:1, 15—20, John 18:36, Mark 7:5—13 and many more. The Church is the New Israel, and so the "Rapture" is not biblical. That’s all fine and dandy, I was just just addressing the statements that the 70th week and word rapture weren’t in the Bible. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 8:24:07 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The part in red...That's an extremely confident statement. I would change those two adverbs to "repeatedly and controversially" No opinion on pre-trib or post-trib and rapture isn't a term we use anyway. Interesting choice of adverbs |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 9:08:16 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The part in red...That's an extremely confident statement. I would change those two adverbs to "repeatedly and controversially" Not for Catholics. And the use of "repeatedly and controversially" is as apt as could be...when describing the downfalls of SS. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 9:09:16 PM EDT
[#42]
I believe the Holy Spirit must be taken out this world for the anti christ to reign. Bible says the HS is in those who are saved. I believe in a pre trib rapture.
If I’m wrong then hopefully I die before the end of times really kicks off. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 9:25:20 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not for Catholics. And the use of "repeatedly and controversially" is as apt as could be...when describing the downfalls of SS. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 9:32:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s all fine and dandy, I was just just addressing the statements that the 70th week and word rapture weren’t in the Bible. Yes, but it's not really is it? Harpazo is, but in order to try and get to "Rapture" you first have to take great liberties with harpazo's numerous renderings of the existent "caught up" by focusing on "snatch and seize" only, which is not the understanding of how the Greeks in the time of Christ used it. Then, you have to try and assert that harpazo can only really mean, to mean only, "snatch, seize," while disregarding all other usages, in order make a connection to Latin's rapio , which itself has various and differing meanings: Verb rapio (present infinitive rapere, perfect active rapui, supine raptum); third conjugation io-variant; to snatch, grab, carry off, abduct, rape Next, you have to assert that the Latin "rapio", is best seen as the foundation of the English "Rapture", rather than "rapture", even though rapture's original word meaning was well established in Europe, WAY before Americans like Darby bastardized it. In fact, it never meant Rapture in the Darbinian sense until a tenuous connection was attempted to take the aggressive "snatch, seize, and tear away" to be equivalent to its original definition of "a feeling of intense pleasure or joy." So no, it's not in the Bible, unless one applies liberal use of smoke and mirrors. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 9:32:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's SS? Sola Scriptura |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 10:03:07 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sola Scriptura Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What's SS? Sola Scriptura |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 10:08:40 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Church is the New Israel, and so the "Rapture" is not biblical. Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 10:13:01 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jeremiah 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not. Colossians 2:4-8 WARNINGS AGAINST FALSE TEACHERS 4 I say this so that no one may deceive you by specious arguments. 5 For even if I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing as I observe your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ. 6 So, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in him, 7 rooted in him and built upon him and established in the faith as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. 8 See to it that no one captivate you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition, according to the elemental powers of the world and not according to Christ. John Darby? Yeah, John Darby. You realize this back and forth, cherry-picking of verses is both pointless and not applicable, right? So let's just leave this sort of thing to shade-tree preachers. |
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Posted: 7/20/2021 11:29:57 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Funny thing about The Bible. Some things don't seem to make sense until they need to. Or until someone wants them to really, really badly. So much so that they force it to "make sense", as in this case of a Rapture. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 2:12:03 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, but it's not really is it? Harpazo is, but in order to try and get to "Rapture" you first have to take great liberties with harpazo's numerous renderings of the existent "caught up" by focusing on "snatch and seize" only, which is not the understanding of how the Greeks in the time of Christ used it. Then, you have to try and assert that harpazo can only really mean, to mean only, "snatch, seize," while disregarding all other usages, in order make a connection to Latin's rapio , which itself has various and differing meanings: Verb rapio (present infinitive rapere, perfect active rapui, supine raptum); third conjugation io-variant; to snatch, grab, carry off, abduct, rape Next, you have to assert that the Latin "rapio", is best seen as the foundation of the English "Rapture", rather than "rapture", even though rapture's original word meaning was well established in Europe, WAY before Americans like Darby bastardized it. In fact, it never meant Rapture in the Darbinian sense until a tenuous connection was attempted to take the aggressive "snatch, seize, and tear away" to be equivalent to its original definition of "a feeling of intense pleasure or joy." So no, it's not in the Bible, unless one applies liberal use of smoke and mirrors. You’re missing the point. Technically the English word isn’t there, but the word “rapture” as we’re using it, bastardization or not, is linguistically and semantically related to the latin word used in the translation of harpazo. I would rather just focus on the meaning of the Greek here, which every serious English translation has as “caught up” (“in the clouds”). You cannot escape 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 and what’s being described, it’s a clear event Paul is referring to, regardless of the different interpretations you want to disparage. |
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