ETA: I’ve joined, I’m in RCIA, my decisions made please refrain from catholic bashing.



But this current pope has me wondering on the direction of the Church. I went to Catholic schools my whole life despite not being Catholic, so I already have a pretty good education in the Catholic beliefs and they've always made way more sense to me historically and spiritually.

Recently I've started reading into the changes made at Vatican II, and those are also a point of contention for me about joining. If I were to take the plunge I feel like I'd fall more in line with the "traditional" Catholics, pre Vatican II, and basically my concern is how true to the original the current Church is.

So what advice can you current members of the Church give me?


Note: If you are not a Catholic, please refrain trying to talk me out of this and telling me the Catholics are wrong. I'm not interested in your opinion on the matter at this point and I don't want this to devolve into a pissing match between protestants and Catholics like every other thread seems to. Thanks.

I was raised Catholic, but I never really went with a lot of what they taught because one thing they taught early on was about false idols and false prophets. I spend my time believing in God, and less time believing in what man says about God.

I would never try to steer you away from it.
I died a couple years ago for 20-30 minutes or so, and what I experienced was pretty much like what the church teaches except it was far more real, and more than can be described or imagined...the peace, tranquility, beauty ect. From that experience I figured I must have done something right in life. I do feel guilty for coming back though. The doctors try saying they brought me back but I remember it differently. I said "I have to go help those people", and the man that I was with said "I understand". Then I instantly woke up back here in agonizing pain asking where he is, where is the man I was talking to.

I hope this is a second chance, and not my biggest fuck up.


I'll pray for though man.

The Church has had good Popes, awful Popes, holy Popes, dissolute Popes and average Popes, yet the Church founded by Jesus endures.

As a friend once noted "More than a form of religious belief and practice, Catholicism represents not only a worldview, but possibly the most complete worldview human history has ever produced."

Not a Catholic but I sincerely wish you the best in your decision and journey.

I have been a traditional Catholic for the past 27 years.  I do not believe we have had a valid pope since Pius XII.  I attend the traditional Latin Mass.  I would be happy to try and answer your questions.  I can also put you in touch with a priest.

To answer your question, the Novus Ordo(Francis') church is not Catholic.  They believe in ecumenism, which was condemned by the Catholic Church.  Their orders are not valid and neither is their Mass.

This is kind of where I'm at based on my understanding of church history and from what I've read about Vatican ii. So where and how do you attend mass and get the sacraments? I understand some groups with these beliefs are in communion with the current church and some aren't

Thank you

So you're not of the opinion that Vatican ii contradicts a lot of prior teachings?

I'm not Catholic and I'm not trying to talk you out of joining, but this is exactly why I skipped Catholicism and moved on to something else.  

So many churches seem to be changing doctrine to draw numbers.

Pope Benedict XVI did not think so.

As far as I know I'm still a Catholic.  Confirmed and haven't gotten an excommunication letter yet.  That said, I walked away while in my teens.  The Church did not match my beliefs and I lost my faith.

I'd suggest finding a church you agree with instead of trying to excuse / accept one that you dont agree with.  What policies of the new pope bother you?  Maybe if you described your beliefs and asked the forum to point you at a church that matched them you'd be better off than trying to find a reason to become a Catholic.

I agree with the vast majority of the catholic church's teachings. I go to a Protestant church (non denominational) now, and I like it well enough, but there's a lot of Protestant theology I have issues with, that isn't an issue with the catholic faith. I'm just wondering how far, if at all, the current church has strayed from its roots.

Watch the Borgias... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Borgias_(2011_TV_series)

I attend a CMRI church.  Personally, I would choose a church associated with the CMRI, Bishop Sanborn, Bishop Dolan or another independent sede priest.  The SSPX is too close to the Novus Ordo.  The SSPV and some others are too exclusionary.

CMRI Chapel in Kentucky

St. Vincent Ferrer Mission
Fr. Michael Oswalt  
Sunday evening Mass once a month
Call (502) 545-1730 for information.


Bishop Dolan is in West Chester, Ohio(North of Cinci)

I have found that the society of saint pious does a mass about 10 minutes from where I live.

Eta: just saw your other post

Not trying to be rude, but what's the relevance of this post?

Cradle Catholic here. Would not change it for the world!
My wife is not Catholic but when we can get some time in the evenings she wants to start RCIA. Kinda hard with 2 kids under 19 months.
Best to you and may God guide you through the journey!

Curious, how do you reconcile the primacy of St. Peter?  Did the gates of the netherworld prevail over the rock?

The church is not the Pope.   The Church is much better with a Pope, however it does not cease to exist if the seat is vacant.  St. Robert Bellermine among others have written on the subject.

I think God has withrawn much of his Grace from the world.   The Gospel has been preached to all nations and the world has rejected God and His Gospel.  We deserve worse that what we are living through.

Saint Pius Xth(SSPX) is borderline Novus Ordo(New Church headed by Francis).  They believe Francis is a valid pope.  However, Francis'(Benedict, JP2, JP, Paul and John XXIII before him) teachings are subject to their (mainly Bishop Fellay) opinion on its orthodoxy.  This is totally against the teaching of the Church regarding the popes authority and it is a denial of the Holy Ghost.

Check them out and make your own decision.  I personally cannot reconcile the faith to their position.

I will message you the name and phone number of my priest.  He is much more qualified to discuss this with you.  I will be happy to answer any questions, but remember my advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.  hahaha.

We agree that the Church is not the pope.  I respect your traditionalism and the strength of your faith.  Your faith is certainly stronger than mine.  I mean it has to be in order to break away.  I just don't understand how, in essence, this schism is any different from others in history.  You don't like [insert reason], so you break away.

I also agree that we deserve worse, but I don't think that what we're living through is bad at all.  Maybe my perspective is skewed as an immigrant, but I love my life.  I don't know that living has ever been better in history.

The difference is that the Church, or a Church claiming the Catholic name, has never taught heresy.  Vatican 2 taught heresies that had been condemned by the magisterium of he Church.  Since the magisterium is infalliable, a teaching contrary to it must be heretical.   Since the Catholic Church can not lead souls to hell, a Church that does not hold to Catholic dogma cannot be Catholic.

Thanks for the compliment, but I am only Catholic due to my mom, and God's grace of course.  Being a Trad has its difficulties, but trying to live a good spiritual life is much more difficult.  I am not very good at that part.

Cradle Catholic here. I spent K-12 attending a non-denominational Christian school. I had teachers that were Evangelical, Nazerine, Calvinist, Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist and non-denominational. Many of these teachers where also church pastors. I also spent time attending youth group and other church activities with protestant friends. In the end, it made me a more committed Catholic. Been there, seen it, done it.

What kept me Catholic is that I saw a lot of different people and denominations try to invent whatever Jesus worked best for them (and that's not to say that Catholic parishes are immune to this). The Catholic church as a whole doesn't rely on the charisma of one parish or person, or the writings of a single founder. The focus is on staying true to the body of Christ. The fact that I can attend Mass in any country in any language and take part in the celebration of Mass is incredible.

I've attended Catholic churches that I didn't like and met priests I felt hurt the Church. I've struggled with doctrines and popes, but the foundation remains the same. It's a truly universal Church.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

I'd like to ask you to ponder these questions. You don't need to respond to me. The answers are between you and God.

Are you born again? Do you know Jesus? Do you follow Him? Do you love Him?

God bless.

I'm the same.  

My folks made me go to mass and catechism until I got confirmed, then the choice was mine.  Years of getting smacked by nuns played a big role in my decision, along with being pretty much told that it's our way or no way.

So I bailed.

Cradle Catholic here for seven decades. 2nd Gen immigrant family from Poland. coal mine and steel mill areas--backbreaking work--with calluses upon their calluses. handshakes like Vise-grips.

Holy Mother Church and Priests, back in the day, were THE BOSS. Any issue you had: spiritual, temporal--THEY solved it. Ex: you had a burning question about your soul or life? "Go see father." Needed a better job: "Go see Father." Want a bigger and nicer house? "Go see Father." The local Parish Priest looked out for your best interests--it was he who could save your soul, give you a better career, house, mostly anything--since he was so close to the community. The Parish Priest knew who had "cred" in the community, would not screw you over, and, in general, worked for the common good. It didn't hurt that the local Priest spoke English, Polish, Czech, German and Italian. These were the central big city parishes--close to the factories, mills, and offices to work in. It was a easy and simple kind of life.

My Dad and my wife's Dad used to hoist a few beers with the local Pastor at a local tavern where they would all enjoy great poker games each week with the rest of the local factory guys. The cigar, pipe, and cigarette smoke was heavy at these sessions (and so was the cursing!) The winner would walk home with maybe a $5 win from all the hands. It really was a "big deal" back then.

But, then "suburbia" broke out. The malls, tract housing, the "wide open spaces" beckoned. The inner-city parishes withered on the vine so to speak. Brand spanking new parishes opened in the 'burbs. Now, the Parish Priest had to be a minister for souls, accountant, sports coach, politician, psychologist, "festival" or annual circus promoter, building maintenance man, and a dozen other jobs. The Parish Priest got pulled away from his flock in my opinion. Some of the Priests I've run into over my life could care less about God! They seemed more interested in "the bottom line" or even worse.

BUT--through it all, has Holy Mother Church deviated or changed? Nope! Think about it; over the past 500 years, have we seen incredible changes in society and life in general? Yep. Have we had absolutely horrible popes? Sure--but, as said, a pope is not The Church. Read the Holy Bible: our Blessed Lord did NOT say: "...and the gates of Hell shall not prevail over...the Popes." It was His Church that he founded that will never be conquered. And, we both know, that in the end: WE WIN!

Does the current occupant of the Chair of St. Peter give me pause at times? Sure. Does certain aspects of Vatican II upset me? Sure. BUT--I am examining these issues, researching them, and seeing how they fit within the framework of Holy Mother Church. I've yet to reach valid conclusions--it's a very long and hard process.

You'll notice that the MSM uniformly portrays Catholicism and Holy Mother Church in a bad light--THAT ALONE is good reason to join it! If you're getting your theology from the MSM, you're badly mistaken. Read some great blogs like: The Catholic Thing or CRISIS magazine for good scholarly viewpoints. Try college Prof. Anthony Esolen for starters or Fr. Scalise in Virginia.

It's like when you join the Armed Services, (and remember: here on earth, we are the "Church Militant,") when you are in the ranks, will you ever have an absolutely lousy ir even demented CO? Sure. BUT--does that alone make you unwilling to serve? I've had some pretty lousy popes and pretty lousy COs--but I still serve.

Guess what? In the end. it's not YOUR decision to join The Church. Look what St. John in 6:44 tells us what our Blessed Savior said to us:

In the end, it will be the Father who draws you in, aided, of course, by the Holy Spirit!

And, with that, we WELCOME YOU HOME, Pilgrim!

From a non-Catholic -- great post.  It sums up much of my own experiences as well as what I have read about the Church.

If you want to understand why the Vatican 2 Church is not Catholic, read the encyclical Pascendi.  It was written by Pope St. Pius Xth, today is his feast day.

Thanks, grinning_bob! Much appreciated.

skifast: I'll also tackle the encyclical, Pascendi dominici gregis ("Feeding the Lord's Flock") by Pope Pius X. I agree wholeheartedly that modernism is an evil, seeking to destroy the Church.

...my reading list grows by the hour!....I greatly admire Pope St. Pius X-- a great man, Bishop, Pope, and Saint. He never minced words--spoke clearly and to the point. I like that!

Very interesting that you brought this up.  In today's sermon, my priest made the point that popes before Vatican did not mince words and were very direct.  You could not misunderstand what they meant.  Pope Pius XIth wrote a decree about Christian Marriage.  A person that disagreed with him wrote something to the effect that no matter what you thought about Pius' position, you could not misinterpret it.

Our priest went on to say that the Vatican II popes writings a re ambiguous.  Francis' writing on whether a divorced and remarried person can receive communion is an example.  No one knows what he means.  The answer is simple, either yes or no.

Im not catholic, but you seem pretty set on going that way.

My only advice is that you're the one that chooses your own path. Personally I wouldnt Take a spiritual path where I disagreed with anything on that path. I won't live my life by the constraints of dogma, and when you involve The politics of a pope in the whole mess, well that's another thing.

My God is my God. I don't need the politics of man to muddy my faith in him. God knows me, and man does not.

No, it just tries to quietly hide some of them under a rug.

Also, a lot of the problems of Vatican II lie not with the documents themselves but with the implementation.

Also, there's two FSSP parishes in the Diocese of Lexington, although I don't know how far they are from you. There's also others:http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm#Kentucky

I just went on a silent retreat with an FSSP priest, quite good.

I may be late to the party, but I thought this video might help you. I had fallen away from the church, and then I met my wife. She has led me back, and I have really begun to find myself in the church. The priest in this video is from my diocese, and his brother is also a priest. I hope you will find your way back as I did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqATi2zbaBw

Thank you all for your replies. I think I'll be reaching out to begin RCIA classes. I also contacted my former theology teacher from my Catholic high school to get his opinion, he's pretty much put my concerns to rest along with your all's help.

Protip: 90% of RCIA classes appear to be worthless for actually learning stuff. A lot of my friends are converts who came to the RCC from their own reading, research, and all that. They found RCIA incredibly lacking in many cases, and one switched parishes over it to get a better class. Some were just "let's share our feelings and not talk about theology/dogma/doctrines" and others just "blah" where my friends obviously knew more Catholic theology than the person teaching it. Some had the person leading it teaching outright heresies. So, good times.

My current parish takes it pretty seriously, but we're Diocese of Arlington.

Like I've said before, I've got 12 years of Catholic schooling under my belt, I've got a pretty thorough understanding of the teachings of the Catholic church. Better even, I'd say than a lot of my friends who actually are Catholic.

If the RCIA classes aren't particularly good it won't bother me much. It's just a stepping stone to getting to become a full member.

Depending upon your background and knowledge, there isn't a canonical requirement to receive RCIA prior to being received into the Catholic Church, IIRC.

I know of two Protestants, one a minister, who were directly received into the Church. The Priest who received them stated "they should be both be teaching in a seminary. Smart and informed doesn't begin to describe it."

Interesting, I'll ask about that then. I figure I'll go ahead and go to the first class next week and talk to the Priest.

Also, don't be surprised if he wants you to take the class in order to teach it. Our Parish has found recent RCIA grads to be the best instructors.

Raised Catholic wife raise Southern Baptist. We raised our kids in the Methodist church. Recently we have discovered how left most churches become. They believe in open borders, uncontrolled immigration, and gay marriages. Do not believe me just check on the Council of World Churches. We have recently joined an Independent Baptist Church that teaches what the bible says about marriage. They also believe that we are a nation of laws in reference to immigration.

Makes sense, I know I remember thinking I could teach my History classes better than my History teachers could

This current pope definitely has Commie sympathies, but a lot of what he rails against is fundamentally the same things John Paul railed against. Calling out the moral hypocrisy of people who assert moral superiority tends to ruffle their feathers.

This is indicative of what is wrong with the Novus Ordo.  How on earth could a Protestant minister not require education regarding Catholicism?  He has been preaching heresy.  It is absurd to think that he understands Catholic theology.

One of his problems is he calls out hypocrisy of the Church, and it does not exist.  The Church's mission is to teach, govern and sanctify.  Francis rejects them by not attacking sin and seems to embrace it.

In one guy's case, my understanding was he spent some time as an associate professor of comparative religion at a Jesuit school, and was personally a Nazarean, whose theology is far from the furthest from Catholic orthodoxy. So, if the guy can lay down Catholic orthodoxy and state, "I fully believe everything the Catholic Church teaches" and can explain the development of those doctrines from a religious and historical perspective, what more do you want?

Well, 99% of the converts I know understood Catholic theology and doctrine better than us cradles when they decided to go to RCIA, so...

Especially when I hear stories from them about having to confront heresies in the RCIA classes they attended.

Some of 'em are very good at saying the liturgy of the hours, and I said the rosary maybe once with my parents as a kid.

A friend of mine just had to say an oath to the Pope or something. But she was Orthodox. There was some extra paperwork because she's now technically Byzantine Rite coming from an Ortho background, but goes to our Latin Rite parish because there isn't one nearby, but she's in their chain of command so something happened? I dunno.

Technically speaking, the Catechism says that breaking the law is a sin, so it's super funny to see a Catholic pundit who argued that breaking the law by speeding was a sin requiring confession, now arguing that breaking another law is a-okay.

OP,

I would be weary of joining groups that are either explicitly or possibly schismatic.  CMRI is explicit in their schism, SSPX is still up for debate depending on who you talk to but still close enough to schism that I am willing to wait it out.  I would give a FPNI stamp to the post that mentioned the Primacy of Peter, if it were the FP.

You won't find much difference in perspectives on things like church history, liturgical history, and the like.  It's really about the validity of the occupants of the chair, and the state of the church.  Remember the decline of the church did not begin with Vatican II, rather, it was accelerated by it...  but not until the 70's.

Good luck on your RCIA.

I am a cradle Catholic. Went to Catholic school, but really did not learn my Faith there. Vatican II is all I have known. But, I learned my Faith from my Father (taught by Jesuits until grad school) and my Mother. Also, from A TON of reading and adversity in my life looking for answers.

My advice is to try to filter out the static surrounding the Church. Go to the sources and the teachings. The Catachism is awesome. There are many contemporary theologians that are converts, Dr Scott Hahn, Steve Ray, Tim Staples. They have some great information. Listen to podcasts. Some of my favorites are "Pints with Aquinas", "Catholic Answers" and the many lectures from Lighthouse media (Catholic publishing company)

There is a bunch of misunderstood info out there. Many Catholics do not properly understand their Faith.

God Bless and I will pray for you

" and even the Gates of hell shall not prevail against it".... no matter how many schisms.