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Posted: 11/16/2018 9:34:18 AM EDT
[#1]
Hi Marie,
Fellow diver here as you know. I have always had some knee issues, years ago that was due to being overweight and sedentary. I found that the worse things for my knee was leg press and leg extension. Oddly, the best thing were squats. The first week sucks, but after that my knee felt great with only some tightness behind it for a few weeks. Those cause pain for you, and only you can judge if thats just the growing pains or significant. Doing some yoga to improve my range of motion helped tremendously too, and I would actually start there if I were you. I'm 44yo BTW. Theres a good youtube channel: Yoga with Adriene When I was hauling double 105s and 130s (!!!) in a drysuit my back and knees were trashed afterward, not to mention sweating even more profusely before getting under water wearing a drysuit in the summer. Between the weight, heat and the neck seal I thought I'd pass out at times. Just being in slightly better shape helped me tremendously. Losing just 20 pounds was a huge help, and keto was the only way for me to really lose weight. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 9:55:51 AM EDT
[#2]
Hey Pete -
I’ve already lost 35 lbs in 3 years (and more to go!). Had to get a new drysuit because of it.  I’m doubling up my HP80s, so the weight won’t be as bad as it could be.I was doing a mile of pool laps (snorkeling with kickboard) but I changed to the bike last spring for a more intense workout, but I’m going to try the pool at least once a week over the winter, actually swimming some this time. I’ll check out the yoga link. I’m 49, BTW. Thanks! |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 10:00:42 AM EDT
[#3]
Congrats on the weight loss! I'm 240 on my way to 200 or less.
I found that swimming actually hurt my knee until I was able to get it stronger. Just changing to SP Jet Fins (between the added weight and stiffness) really REALLY hurt my knee. I had to back off to some more flexible Tusa fins, which sucked pushing a drysuit through the water. Just an observation. It seems like the tendons from my quads were so weak, along with the tendons along the outside of my knee, that until I improved my flexibility and loaded the knee up and made it stronger it was going to hurt. Just a data point, I know we are all different, but hopefully it's encouraging. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 10:05:05 AM EDT
[#4]
I used Atomic splits until I switched to Deep6 Eddy fins, which are a jet fin style but a softer material.
I use the splits for pool laps now. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 11:04:04 AM EDT
[#5]
I really don't think there's an easy answer that's going to work in the long term. Squats are the answer. But your knees will hurt for a while and that's the way it is. As you do them more, you'll find that your knees DON'T hurt when you're doing squats regularly.
I'd start with mobility, not weight. Hang some big bands overhead and squat with some assistance so you're getting about 1/2 body weight and full range of motion. Gradually lighten the bands until you are getting full depth squats at full body weight. It will fix your knees, but it's a process that's going to take a bit. Give it time and take it easy, but focus on getting your knees back. Here's the good news. In a few months you'll love all the new mobility and strength. You'll have an easier time with every single task in life and you'll do almost anything you want without pain & aches. But if you've ignored your knees for the last couple of decades, it's going to take a bit to lube them up again. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 11:19:48 AM EDT
[#6]
I would aim for specificity if you can.
You are trying to make yourself stronger at wearing 100 lbs of gear, so start picking things up and going for short walks, or get a weight vest and doing the same. You'll have to watch your knees carefully, but it should be reasonably low impact. Your legs won't get any kind of priority doing that, but everything will have to work together to get stronger as you progress. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 11:26:11 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I really don't think there's an easy answer that's going to work in the long term. Squats are the answer. But your knees will hurt for a while and that's the way it is. As you do them more, you'll find that your knees DON'T hurt when you're doing squats regularly. I'd start with mobility, not weight. Hang some big bands overhead and squat with some assistance so you're getting about 1/2 body weight and full range of motion. Gradually lighten the bands until you are getting full depth squats at full body weight. It will fix your knees, but it's a process that's going to take a bit. Give it time and take it easy, but focus on getting your knees back. Here's the good news. In a few months you'll love all the new mobility and strength. You'll have an easier time with every single task in life and you'll do almost anything you want without pain & aches. But if you've ignored your knees for the last couple of decades, it's going to take a bit to lube them up again. Also add some sets (after squats) of leg extensions. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 11:31:01 AM EDT
[#8]
Did something to my knees playing basketball in gym class freshman year of high school. About 1984 for so. They didn’t hurt for a long time but in more recent years have been hurting. They’ve gotten better since I started swimming and lost some weight, but still have pain daily.
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Posted: 11/16/2018 11:38:58 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would aim for specificity if you can. You are trying to make yourself stronger at wearing 100 lbs of gear, so start picking things up and going for short walks, or get a weight vest and doing the same. You'll have to watch your knees carefully, but it should be reasonably low impact. Your legs won't get any kind of priority doing that, but everything will have to work together to get stronger as you progress. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 11:45:49 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good advice here. Also add some sets (after squats) of leg extensions. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 12:57:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Buy a 20 speed or better bicycle, ride that bicycle.
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Posted: 11/16/2018 2:17:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Buy a 20 speed or better bicycle, ride that bicycle. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 3:25:33 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Increasing shear force on knees that already hurt is probably not the best idea. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Good advice here. Also add some sets (after squats) of leg extensions. https://www.healthline.com/health/fitness-exercise/leg-exercises-for-bad-knees#2 |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 3:29:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Strengthening the quads protect the knees. https://www.healthline.com/health/fitness-exercise/leg-exercises-for-bad-knees#2 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Good advice here. Also add some sets (after squats) of leg extensions. https://www.healthline.com/health/fitness-exercise/leg-exercises-for-bad-knees#2 I'm not saying that leg extensions don't do what they are supposed to do, just that they are probably a bad idea if you already have damage that needs to be mitigated. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 3:53:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Weighted glute bridges are great. Keep it up.
I'd take a break from riding the bike for a few months and really focus on your core. I'd add low weighted squats back in. Try kettle bell or dumbbell squats. If you don't like the feeling of dumbbell squats, try front barbell squats. Give dumb/kettle bell squats a chance. You should be able to get an hour long core focused workout in four days a week that will burn more fat and build more muscle than cycling ever will. Keep the squats, just lower the weight significantly. Reducing your weight and building your core should be priorities in that order. Core + glutes and hamstrings. Edit: leg extensions, especially weighted are the knee devil. Proceed at your peril. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 4:27:01 PM EDT
[#16]
Gluten bridges are unweighted.
How would you weight them? |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 4:42:17 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gluten bridges are unweighted. How would you weight them? It's extremely uncomfortable, and try not to make eye contact with anyone while doing it......it's about the same as the good girl bad girl machine in that regard. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 5:25:46 PM EDT
[#18]
This thread is of interest to me.
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Posted: 11/16/2018 6:28:37 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Strengthening the quads protect the knees. https://www.healthline.com/health/fitness-exercise/leg-exercises-for-bad-knees#2 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Good advice here. Also add some sets (after squats) of leg extensions. https://www.healthline.com/health/fitness-exercise/leg-exercises-for-bad-knees#2 To OP...I’ll add another recommendation for low bar squats performed correctly as the answer. Because you might not be able to correctly perform a squat now, the progressive mobility/loading outlined above is a great idea. You do have to focus on form to keep from getting into your knees too much (knees over toes). Some knee over toes isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but too much can lead to pain. You are also a candidate for using a leg press to progress until you can squat under a bar. Form is key. Starting Strength is the best resource on form. The forum also is a tremendous resource for injury/pain/rehab. You could also take advantage of a local Starting Strength coach, or one of the online coaches. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 6:29:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So why not do it with compressive forces rather than shear forces, like our more natural planes of motion? I'm not saying that leg extensions don't do what they are supposed to do, just that they are probably a bad idea if you already have damage that needs to be mitigated. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 7:37:25 PM EDT
[#21]
If your knee pain is tendinitis then wide stance box squats will help. Make sure to keep the knee from traveling over the foot. Use ice to reduce inflammation and also do low weight with high repetitions (in addition to heavier low rep range work) to increase blood flow for healing.
If you have ligament/cartilage problems or arthritis, you are screwed. 
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Posted: 11/16/2018 7:44:36 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: So why not do it with compressive forces rather than shear forces, like our more natural planes of motion? I'm not saying that leg extensions don't do what they are supposed to do, just that they are probably a bad idea if you already have damage that needs to be mitigated. Pre-exhausting by performing squats will ensure that you are not going to injure yourself by going too heavy doing a hypertrophy exercise using proper from. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 9:09:44 PM EDT
[#23]
Someone mentioned adding squats back in. I’ve not being doing them. If i even attempt a squat at home (making sure knees don’t go over feet), knees hurt, so I say screw it, and stop.
I’ve been doing some of these. https://gethealthyu.com/workout-modifications-bad-knees/ I’m not going to need to walk far with the doubles on my back. Maybe a short distance at the quarry when there for practice dives. Most dives will be off the boat. Lifting the doubles from car into cart to move them to boat (long walk to the boat slip!) will be challenging and then getting up the boat ladder all geared up. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 9:18:09 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Leg extensions performed between 30-60 degrees of knee flexion are commonly prescribed by PT for rehabilitation after various injuries and surgeries. Pre-exhausting by performing squats will ensure that you are not going to injure yourself by going too heavy doing a hypertrophy exercise using proper from. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: So why not do it with compressive forces rather than shear forces, like our more natural planes of motion? I'm not saying that leg extensions don't do what they are supposed to do, just that they are probably a bad idea if you already have damage that needs to be mitigated. Pre-exhausting by performing squats will ensure that you are not going to injure yourself by going too heavy doing a hypertrophy exercise using proper from. But, yes, light leg extensions are probably low risk. But if you can do squats, why add in additional work? Additional work may make sense for an advanced intermediate or advanced lifter, but never an untrained novice that can properly perform the major compound lifts. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 9:21:16 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Someone mentioned adding squats back in. I’ve not being doing them. If i even attempt a squat at home (making sure knees don’t go over feet), knees hurt, so I say screw it, and stop. I’ve been doing some of these. https://gethealthyu.com/workout-modifications-bad-knees/ I’m not going to need to walk far with the doubles on my back. Maybe a short distance at the quarry when there for practice dives. Most dives will be off the boat. Lifting the doubles from car into cart to move them to boat (long walk to the boat slip!) will be challenging and then getting up the boat ladder all geared up. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 9:28:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How are you squatting? A typical unweighted squat usually has the knees way over the toes. Knees way over toes stresses the knees. Box squats were also mentioned. That would be a great option if you have access to an appropriate height box. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 10:39:25 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just squatting. Nothing special about it. The lifting stuff you guys have been referring to I have very little idea of what you're talking about. Will be googling this weekend. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 11:51:23 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I was heavier my knees would hurt when I'd squat with no bar or weights. My knees would ache. I throw a 75 pound weighted bar on my back, and like magic my knees felt great. No idea why, but that's how it's been. Even when I was younger, I'd warmup with the bar and my knees would hurt from the last workout. I'd get double body weight on the bar and it felt great. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 11:52:24 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just squatting. Nothing special about it. The lifting stuff you guys have been referring to I have very little idea of what you're talking about. Will be googling this weekend. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 4:10:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Weighted glute bridges are great. Keep it up. I'd take a break from riding the bike for a few months and really focus on your core. I'd add low weighted squats back in. Try kettle bell or dumbbell squats. If you don't like the feeling of dumbbell squats, try front barbell squats. Give dumb/kettle bell squats a chance. You should be able to get an hour long core focused workout in four days a week that will burn more fat and build more muscle than cycling ever will. Keep the squats, just lower the weight significantly. Reducing your weight and building your core should be priorities in that order. Core + glutes and hamstrings. Edit: leg extensions, especially weighted are the knee devil. Proceed at your peril. Tried a few dumbbell squats earlier today. OK, I guess. Used my 5 lb dumbbells. Will do more later as I’m used to working out later in the day. Give me an idea of specifics I should be doing for an hour. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 11:43:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Way back in elementary school I had a bad knee injury that has hurt me all my life. A couple of doctors suggest surgery to see if it would help. A couple of years ago my PCP told me to go see a PT that specialized in sports injuries. Long story short, he told me to get off my ass and start building core strength. Basically years of the body compensating for injury had left part of me really weak and generally in a lot of pain.
Squats. Tons of info out there. Read Starting Strength, check out some youtube videos (Alan Thrall and AtheleanX?) and start light. I am completely floored how much better I feel a year later. As long as I lift heavy stuff I feel fine. Only other thing that has ever given me much relief is being on the bicycle. However, many if not most people have a terrible bike setup. It makes the knee problems much worse. As always YMMV. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 11:49:17 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Way back in elementary school I had a bad knee injury that has hurt me all my life. A couple of doctors suggest surgery to see if it would help. A couple of years ago my PCP told me to go see a PT that specialized in sports injuries. Long story short, he told me to get off my ass and start building core strength. Basically years of the body compensating for injury had left part of me really weak and generally in a lot of pain. Squats. Tons of info out there. Read Starting Strength, check out some youtube videos (Alan Thrall and AtheleanX?) and start light. I am completely floored how much better I feel a year later. As long as I lift heavy stuff I feel fine. Only other thing that has ever given me much relief is being on the bicycle. However, many if not most people have a terrible bike setup. It makes the knee problems much worse. As always YMMV. I used my 5lb dumbbells. I actually had to do my arm weight work with the 5lb ones today rather than the 10lb ones. My shoulders were hurting. My scuba tanks live in my living room. I actually picked up a tank in each hand - one at a time - and did 5 reps lifting one a bit by the valve. They weight 28 lbs empty and these were 2/3 full. I’m going to keep up the bike. That gives me the stamina for long days of diving. Kicks my arse when I don’t. |
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Posted: 11/18/2018 1:32:11 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was able to do 25 dumbell squats earlier. Didn't hurt. We'll see how I feel tomorrow. I used my 5lb dumbbells. I actually had to do my arm weight work with the 5lb ones today rather than the 10lb ones. My shoulders were hurting. My scuba tanks live in my living room. I actually picked up a tank in each hand - one at a time - and did 5 reps lifting one a bit by the valve. They weight 28 lbs empty and these were 2/3 full. I'm going to keep up the bike. That gives me the stamina for long days of diving. Kicks my arse when I don't. A few years ago a buddy and I dove off the jetties in Port Aransas Texas. Ended up being a heck of a walk with all our gear in the heat. Screw that noise, its boat diving next time.
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Posted: 11/18/2018 1:47:12 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Winter and bike riding in th Midwest don’t play together very well. This is off season training for me. I’ll stick with the recumbent at the gym. |
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Posted: 11/18/2018 6:58:07 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The problem with diving is every extra bit of fat makes for extra weights you have to carry. A few years ago a buddy and I dove off the jetties in Port Aransas Texas. Ended up being a heck of a walk with all our gear in the heat. Screw that noise, its boat diving next time.
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Posted: 11/18/2018 7:45:03 AM EDT
[#36]
If you haven't already, go see an orthopedic surgeon and figure out why your knees hurt.
If it turns out you have osteoarthritis, then you need to decide whether you want weak arthritic knees or strong arthritic knees. If you want strength, then you need resistance exercise...with squats being the king. |
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Posted: 11/18/2018 11:24:05 AM EDT
[#37]
leg extensions are so bad for the knees that they are the only movement that my PT specifically prohibits (but now that my knees are solid, I sometimes do low-weight/high rep extensions)
weighted walking lunges are great, but squatting is the best if you don't want to get under a barbell, get on a stair machine and do one-leg ups until your quad is about to fall off and then switch legs. |
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Posted: 11/18/2018 5:56:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was able to do 25 dumbell squats earlier. Didn’t hurt. We’ll see how I feel tomorrow. I used my 5lb dumbbells. I actually had to do my arm weight work with the 5lb ones today rather than the 10lb ones. My shoulders were hurting. My scuba tanks live in my living room. I actually picked up a tank in each hand - one at a time - and did 5 reps lifting one a bit by the valve. They weight 28 lbs empty and these were 2/3 full. I’m going to keep up the bike. That gives me the stamina for long days of diving. Kicks my arse when I don’t. It make take some dedicated stretching of the hips (spoas) as ankles for you to get there, but it's worth it. |
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Posted: 11/18/2018 9:21:58 PM EDT
[#39]
I think I’ll just keep updating this thread with how I’m doing. Did 12.5 miles in 50 min on the bike today. Felt good.
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Posted: 11/18/2018 10:48:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think I'll just keep updating this thread with how I'm doing. Did 12.5 miles in 50 min on the bike today. Felt good. I used a steel backplate and a LP72 steel on an ocean dive and still needed lead to keep me down while diving dry. Wearing that inside a rubber bag over a pair of sweats gets hot and nasty quick! Should have taken my 5MM wetsuit. |
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Posted: 11/18/2018 10:50:42 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice, congrats. Every little bit helps. Few non-divers realize just how taxing diving dry is. I used a steel backplate and a LP72 steel on an ocean dive and still needed lead to keep me down while diving dry. Wearing that inside a rubber bag over a pair of sweats gets hot and nasty quick! Should have taken my 5MM wetsuit. |
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Posted: 11/19/2018 11:28:43 PM EDT
[#42]
Low-bar squats done properly fixed my knees. Squats are all about loading the hips, not the knees.
I’m a 20-year sufferer of knee pain with multiple blow outs and surgery. I have no cartilage in my right knee. PT didn’t help. Surgery helped a little. Squats fixed everything. My knees are stronger than ever and pain free. |
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Posted: 11/21/2018 9:53:15 PM EDT
[#43]
Did the squats and other stuff at home Mon & Tues. Knees don’t hurt any more than usual.
12.9 miles in 50 min on the recumbent bike at gym tonight. |
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Posted: 11/21/2018 11:45:58 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did the squats and other stuff at home Mon & Tues. Knees don't hurt any more than usual. 12.9 miles in 50 min on the recumbent bike at gym tonight. Also funny story about the above. When I first got my DUI weight harness, I took my gear off in the water - removed my harness/backplate/wing while in the water, and handed them up to my buddy on the boat. Yeah, bad plan. Good thing I still had my fins on, otherwise I'd have been pulling the "oh shit" handles on that harness pretty quick, I almost did anyway. 
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Posted: 11/21/2018 11:49:54 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Congrats. Also funny story about the above. When I first got my DUI weight harness, I took my gear off in the water - removed my harness/backplate/wing while in the water, and handed them up to my buddy on the boat. Yeah, bad plan. Good thing I still had my fins on, otherwise I'd have been pulling the "oh shit" handles on that harness pretty quick, I almost did anyway.
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Posted: 11/22/2018 12:00:13 AM EDT
[#46]
Squats and deadlifts.
You are in the Chicago area, find a strength coach, a good one! Learn proper form so you don’t have to unlearn later. Little things make a huge difference. Like aggressively point your toes out and getting set up correctly. Your hips will not track properly if you don’t and your knees will want to collapse inward. Proper form is 90 percent of the battle. The rest is showing up and following the program, getting good rest and correct nutrition. |
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Posted: 11/22/2018 12:25:53 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Squats and deadlifts. You are in the Chicago area, find a strength coach, a good one! Learn proper form so you don’t have to unlearn later. Little things make a huge difference. Like aggressively point your toes out and getting set up correctly. Your hips will not track properly if you don’t and your knees will want to collapse inward. Proper form is 90 percent of the battle. The rest is showing up and following the program, getting good rest and correct nutrition. |
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Posted: 11/22/2018 11:22:47 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Out of the budget. I'm doing this on my own. Some fat fuck on FB was going after me about self discipline. I told asshat I'd already lost 35 lbs, and what had he done? He's gotten fatter. How do I know I progressed? I am lifting a crapton more weight and it doesn't hurt. YMMV. Adam Thrall and Athlean-X are probably my 2 favorites. Thought Thrall kinda hurt my feels with his recent comments about Titan.
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Posted: 11/22/2018 11:33:12 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are some great resources out there, particularly on youtube. I have learned more in 6mo from youtube, here, bodybuilder.com and some other resources than I did with about a year with a personal trainer. How do I know I progressed? I am lifting a crapton more weight and it doesn't hurt. YMMV. Adam Thrall and Athlean-X are probably my 2 favorites. Thought Thrall kinda hurt my feels with his recent comments about Titan. I only go to the gym for the bike or the pool.
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Posted: 11/22/2018 12:38:38 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the recommendations. I actually prefer doing my stuff at home in my living room, with laptop accessible than at the gym with the folks who have muscles bigger than their brains! I only go to the gym for the bike or the pool.Thrall is hilarious and has some great practical tips. If you are worried about not looking like a dumbass at the gym there is always OE Fitness. 
So far as a newbie I have found the hardcore lifting dudes to be less judgemental than the soccer mom that needs a new humble brag pic for FB. YMMV. |
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