Posted: 7/24/2013 8:01:18 PM EDT
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Hi All,
I'm wondering if anyone here has been to Michael De Bethencourt's Snubtraining. I'd like to hear about your experience in that course if you've been. I carry a j-frame (or 2) often as a primary and think it's a good idea to learn to run that gun well. How's the course? Thanks. Cheers! -JC |
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The course is very well put together and will give you some really good information. Michael will discuss advantages and disadvantages to the snub nose as well as current accessories and after market alterations to the guns. Different makes and models are discussed. I greatly prefer his reloading methods compared to others that are being used. He thinks outside of the box and will force you to do the same. After completing his course you will more than likely not look at your snub the same way. Personality wise he is a different type of guy. He is entertaining to say the least. I will leave it at that. If you carry a snub nose as your dedicated carry gun then this course will more than likely pay for itself before you waste money on things you don't need.
On the negative side I did not see this course as being a shooting diagnostic type course. Round count was about 125rds. I didn't leave the course being a more accurate or faster shot. I left the course with a better understanding of how to carry and deploy my snub nose. |
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Thanks for the response. That's the kind of feedback I was looking for.
I'm not looking for a general shooting skills or marksmanship type of course. I carry my snub(s) often as a primary and want to learn specifically how to operate it better. That description sounds exactly what I have in mind. I have heard he has a unique style. I'm glad to hear he will be "entertaining". I'm thoroughly expecting to be challenged and spend much of the time doing drills that take me outside my comfort zone. Since my original post and your great reply I have decided to go ahead and enroll in his upcoming class on Sunday, 08/04. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks and I'm still curious as to what others that have been have to say about it. I'll post an AAR here. Cheers! -JC |
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Well I spent yesterday attending Michael's course.
I don't think I'm ready for a real detailed AAR due to there being quite a bit you come away with and needing some time to digest it. A couple things became obvious to me. I need to carry a different snub and equip it differently and carry and employ my reloads differently. I liked the course. It was eye-opening to say the least. I for the first time had a revolver failure and came away with a much better understanding of fighting revolvers in general. I agree, I like his manual of arms over the traditional one I learned. It's going to take some getting used to for me. His emphasis on getting a reload in the gun quickly and back to fighting and repeating as necessary is a great approach IMO. It's very evident that he knows far more than he can fit into an 8 hour day. It's definitely not a big day of "shooting" in the sense some courses are. But I thought the range time was about the right amount. I felt like I want to get some of those drills more dialed before I try more difficult conditions. I have a new mindset for my snub dry-fire time now from the live-fire there. If you're serious about being a revolver for self defense it's a great course. Much of what he says would be good for all gun carriers in general IMO, but it is a revolver specific class. I've got the phrase "I need a new Snub" stuck in my head to the Huey Lewis song now 
Cheers! -JC |
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I need to carry a different snub and equip it differently and carry and employ my reloads differently.
Cheers! -JC Interesting thread..........do you care to elaborate on the comment you posted above?/ I'd also be interested in knowing what type of "failure" you had ........ Thanks! |
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Quoted:
I need to carry a different snub and equip it differently and carry and employ my reloads differently. Cheers! -JC Interesting thread..........do you care to elaborate on the comment you posted above?/ I'd also be interested in knowing what type of "failure" you had ........ Thanks! I'll gladly elaborate. Not all of the evidence was direct or even instructor provided (some students were commenting), but enough was shown to convince me that I don't want a S&W revolver for carry with the lock. It pretty much confirmed what I've been thinking anyway. I also decided that I'd like a hammer I can access. It's not at all so single action can be used, but I learned to rotate the cylinder as a revolver version of a press and function check. Being able to manipulate the hammer administratively allows for that. So that means the Centennial framed 442 isn't the best choice for me. As far as equipping it differently mostly I was referring to having stocks / grips that allow clearance for a speed loader. Chamfering the charge holes is also a change that makes sense. And now modding the gun to remove the lock is another way of better equipping too for me. The other mod is to render all guns DAO regardless of hammer configuration. He also confirmed my suspicion that Crimson trace stocks are in fact beneficial. (I've been using them on my dry-fire gun for quite a while now.) I brought two guns, a 442 and a 438. Both of them have locks (not for long). The 442 is what I had the malfunction on. When plunging the ejector rod to eject brass the entire cylinder slid back off the crane. It pushed the cylinder past the stop beyond the edge of the window and it would neither rotate nor close. It was a pretty stiff jab to clear it bit I didn't hammer it with full force either. He explained that as something that happens when the newer MIM parts equipped guns get hot and the frame / crane flexes more and it just pushes past the little nub and that he sees it more frequently on the Scandium guns. It went back in place but has shaken my faith in that gun. Plus it's the Centennial framed one that I'm considering selling / trading now. Reloads... I learned how to use speed strips much better. Loading 5 or 6 rounds on one for me was stupid slow. Different people did have different results in these drills BTW. I would rather carry 3 or 4 loaded with 3, maybe 4 rounds each. I can get some in the gun and get shooting and then reload again quicker than trying to fill all 5 holes. One of the problems with the revolver is the cumbersome reloading compared with popping a mag in. The importance of getting the gun back shooting immediately vs getting all the holes filled was emphasized. So now I've decided to either sell or trade the 442 or just beat the hell out of it practicing and learning to work on S&Ws. I've also decided to have a nice older Mod.60 .38 worked on and for it to become my main carry snub. I will be removing the lock from my 438 and converting it to DAO too. If you get the chance and may need to count on using a revolver in a fight the course is well worth checking out IMO. I fully believe Michael de Bethencourt is a man that strongly wishes to help good people better defend themselves should they ever need to. Cheers! -JC |
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I see on his schedule that Michael is offering all 3 days of his material in CO on Oct 11, 12 & 13. I live in CO and will be there then. It's 2 days snub, 1 day knife, buy 2 get 1 free. Course Descriptions.
I considered signing up for the advanced snub course but decided against it. I decided for a few reasons. Firstly is that I just think it's premature. I want to have the skills / manipulations more dialed before trying to go faster or have more difficult conditions. I also want to get some medical / trauma training before stepping up in firearms training. I do have 2 more pistol courses already scheduled this season though. I also want to go to the next revolver course with my revolvers better equipped. One or both of them will be away getting worked on during that time, that's time and money. And I also want a better holster and as it is with holsters that's going to be a wait and expense too. So I have to wait. So I'm going to have to let this opportunity slide. I'm going to make it happen next summer if able though. I've been practicing those handling skills though. Cheer! -JC ETA: I've also decided to keep and use the 442 as a learning / beater gun. First project is to remove the lock ! |
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Well I just had another conversation that partly confirmed my suspicions again but I also found somewhat disappointing.
I asked the gunsmith I intend to use about the 438 with the lock and he confirmed that I should invest in something different instead of altering that one. I should have known. It's relatively new, I just got it in the spring 
.I didn't pay too much at least. So I think I'm going to sell the 438 when I get home in a couple months to help finance an older j-frame. I'm still going to keep the 442 though as an "extra". That course is STILL costing me money !! Actually I just better understand the errors of my previous ways now and corrections can cost ! Cheers! -JC |
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Quoted:
I'll gladly elaborate. Not all of the evidence was direct or even instructor provided (some students were commenting), but enough was shown to convince me that I don't want a S&W revolver for carry with the lock. It pretty much confirmed what I've been thinking anyway. I also decided that I'd like a hammer I can access. It's not at all so single action can be used, but I learned to rotate the cylinder as a revolver version of a press and function check. Being able to manipulate the hammer administratively allows for that. So that means the Centennial framed 442 isn't the best choice for me. As far as equipping it differently mostly I was referring to having stocks / grips that allow clearance for a speed loader. Chamfering the charge holes is also a change that makes sense. And now modding the gun to remove the lock is another way of better equipping too for me. The other mod is to render all guns DAO regardless of hammer configuration. He also confirmed my suspicion that Crimson trace stocks are in fact beneficial. (I've been using them on my dry-fire gun for quite a while now.) I brought two guns, a 442 and a 438. Both of them have locks (not for long). The 442 is what I had the malfunction on. When plunging the ejector rod to eject brass the entire cylinder slid back off the crane. It pushed the cylinder past the stop beyond the edge of the window and it would neither rotate nor close. It was a pretty stiff jab to clear it bit I didn't hammer it with full force either. He explained that as something that happens when the newer MIM parts equipped guns get hot and the frame / crane flexes more and it just pushes past the little nub and that he sees it more frequently on the Scandium guns. It went back in place but has shaken my faith in that gun. Plus it's the Centennial framed one that I'm considering selling / trading now. Reloads... I learned how to use speed strips much better. Loading 5 or 6 rounds on one for me was stupid slow. Different people did have different results in these drills BTW. I would rather carry 3 or 4 loaded with 3, maybe 4 rounds each. I can get some in the gun and get shooting and then reload again quicker than trying to fill all 5 holes. One of the problems with the revolver is the cumbersome reloading compared with popping a mag in. The importance of getting the gun back shooting immediately vs getting all the holes filled was emphasized. So now I've decided to either sell or trade the 442 or just beat the hell out of it practicing and learning to work on S&Ws. I've also decided to have a nice older Mod.60 .38 worked on and for it to become my main carry snub. I will be removing the lock from my 438 and converting it to DAO too. If you get the chance and may need to count on using a revolver in a fight the course is well worth checking out IMO. I fully believe Michael de Bethencourt is a man that strongly wishes to help good people better defend themselves should they ever need to. Cheers! -JC Quoted:
Quoted:
I need to carry a different snub and equip it differently and carry and employ my reloads differently. Cheers! -JC Interesting thread..........do you care to elaborate on the comment you posted above?/ I'd also be interested in knowing what type of "failure" you had ........ Thanks! I'll gladly elaborate. Not all of the evidence was direct or even instructor provided (some students were commenting), but enough was shown to convince me that I don't want a S&W revolver for carry with the lock. It pretty much confirmed what I've been thinking anyway. I also decided that I'd like a hammer I can access. It's not at all so single action can be used, but I learned to rotate the cylinder as a revolver version of a press and function check. Being able to manipulate the hammer administratively allows for that. So that means the Centennial framed 442 isn't the best choice for me. As far as equipping it differently mostly I was referring to having stocks / grips that allow clearance for a speed loader. Chamfering the charge holes is also a change that makes sense. And now modding the gun to remove the lock is another way of better equipping too for me. The other mod is to render all guns DAO regardless of hammer configuration. He also confirmed my suspicion that Crimson trace stocks are in fact beneficial. (I've been using them on my dry-fire gun for quite a while now.) I brought two guns, a 442 and a 438. Both of them have locks (not for long). The 442 is what I had the malfunction on. When plunging the ejector rod to eject brass the entire cylinder slid back off the crane. It pushed the cylinder past the stop beyond the edge of the window and it would neither rotate nor close. It was a pretty stiff jab to clear it bit I didn't hammer it with full force either. He explained that as something that happens when the newer MIM parts equipped guns get hot and the frame / crane flexes more and it just pushes past the little nub and that he sees it more frequently on the Scandium guns. It went back in place but has shaken my faith in that gun. Plus it's the Centennial framed one that I'm considering selling / trading now. Reloads... I learned how to use speed strips much better. Loading 5 or 6 rounds on one for me was stupid slow. Different people did have different results in these drills BTW. I would rather carry 3 or 4 loaded with 3, maybe 4 rounds each. I can get some in the gun and get shooting and then reload again quicker than trying to fill all 5 holes. One of the problems with the revolver is the cumbersome reloading compared with popping a mag in. The importance of getting the gun back shooting immediately vs getting all the holes filled was emphasized. So now I've decided to either sell or trade the 442 or just beat the hell out of it practicing and learning to work on S&Ws. I've also decided to have a nice older Mod.60 .38 worked on and for it to become my main carry snub. I will be removing the lock from my 438 and converting it to DAO too. If you get the chance and may need to count on using a revolver in a fight the course is well worth checking out IMO. I fully believe Michael de Bethencourt is a man that strongly wishes to help good people better defend themselves should they ever need to. Cheers! -JC I sometimes carry an older Model 60 (3",adjustable sights)This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. EXCELLENT post and thread.Thank you very much. |
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Quoted:
Well I just had another conversation that partly confirmed my suspicions again but I also found somewhat disappointing. I asked the gunsmith I intend to use about the 438 with the lock and he confirmed that I should invest in something different instead of altering that -JC Can you elaborate as to what mods and why the 438 isn't a good base to work off? I have a 340 I was going to use for the course. |
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Quoted:
Can you elaborate as to what mods and why the 438 isn't a good base to work off? I have a 340 I was going to use for the course. Yes. And I am in fact still undecided about what I'm going to do with it. It's not so much about it being a 438, it's about the lock. Mostly it's because both Michael and the gunsmith I contacted recommend not using a S&W with the integral lock for self-defense. They've both seen them fail and cause a stoppage multiple times according to them. Secondary to that is the comparison of the quality control in the older guns with forged internals vs. the newer MIM parts guns. But that was secondary to the liability of having the lock engage and stop the gun. I inquired with the gunsmith about chamfering the cylinder, converting it DAO and removing the lock. Now this where the subject can get "debatable" and there are differing opinions. It is not my intention to come into a tech forum and start one of those debates on what is a liability and what isn't etc. So I'll just state that I am also an LFI student and generally do follow Ayoob's advice on limiting my risk exposure. The gunsmith was the assistant instructor at LFI when I attended. It is his opinion that the S&W lock is considered a safety device and that removing it could be portrayed as reckless by an enthusiastic prosecution. He strongly advised me against carrying one with the lock removed. It is his opinion as an instructor about the lock and his opinion as a smith to not invest work on a newer MIM gun. Others, including Michael consider the lock not to be a safety device, but as an "access denial" device. There are gunsmiths that will do the work. Truly, I agree with this description of the lock and would justify removing it as a reliability enhancement, not the removal of a safety device. But I question whether I really want to do that against the advice of another one of my respected instructors, or just get an older gun with the higher quality internals and equip it for self-defense instead. I'm still somewhat undecided though. I intend to hold onto the 438 and look for a value in an older Mod.38 or 49 while my Mod.60 is getting worked on. Thanks. Cheers! -JC |
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Here is an AAR written by Greg Ellifritz, LEO and TDI Instructor.
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/secrets-of-the-concealed-carry-snub-aar By the way, if you haven't book-marked Greg's web site, you should consider it. It is a wealth of information. |