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Posted: 1/15/2017 10:25:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dog1]
Got this from a buddy today-
Happened at the Norco Run and Gun match. Looks like a very poor range design. |
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Posted: 1/15/2017 10:29:50 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 1/15/2017 11:09:50 PM EDT
[#2]
Wtf, are there additional firing lines like 10 yards behind the first berm? That's ridiculous, no way would I shoot there. Sad for that guy and the family, also sad for the guy who put that round downrange.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2017 2:08:44 AM EDT
[#3]
Holy hell that a bad layout.
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Posted: 1/16/2017 2:23:57 AM EDT
[#4]
RIP.
Terrible range set up. |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 2:28:08 AM EDT
[#5]
horrible |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2017 2:41:40 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fullpower:
RIP. Terrible range set up. |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 2:47:02 AM EDT
[#7]
.... that range set up... not even once. Why would there even be a match there?
Good lord. |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 3:30:04 AM EDT
[#8]
I get the set up if the berms were capable of stopping the rounds but they used plywood to make the berms taller and that reflected a round back down into a shooter in the forward bay?
WTF I need to see some detailed photos of this set up. |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 4:26:51 AM EDT
[#9]
I have shot at Raahagues dozens of times, both at the front and rear ranges, there is no way a round went over the berm and hit someone on the rear range. The rear range is lower than the front range and the top of the earthen front range berms are 10+ feet over the rear range. Watch them recover a 130gr .38 super from the victims back.
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Posted: 1/16/2017 9:31:04 AM EDT
[#10]
something is not right
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USA
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Posted: 1/16/2017 9:58:08 AM EDT
[#11]
Holy crap. I saw the overhead photo and initially assumed the firing points were back to back shooting outward, They shoot in the same direction? Holy carp that's a dumb setup. Short of the berms being 200 feet tall.
Me thinks they're going to need another insurer. |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 10:10:52 AM EDT
[#12]
In for the discovery that it was an accidental discharge from someone off the firing line dorking around with their gun behind the victim.
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Posted: 1/16/2017 10:49:39 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By para_frame:
I have shot at Raahagues dozens of times, both at the front and rear ranges, there is no way a round went over the berm and hit someone on the rear range. The rear range is lower than the front range and the top of the earthen front range berms are 10+ feet over the rear range. Watch them recover a 130gr .38 super from the victims back. That was a thought I had as well. |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 10:59:02 AM EDT
[#14]
No way I'd step foot in the range. Layout looks very unsafe from the pics I've seen.
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Posted: 1/16/2017 11:04:40 AM EDT
[#15]
Originally Posted By Dog1:
Got this from a buddy today- https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/9749/received--126785.jpg Happened at the Norco Run and Gun match. Looks like a very poor range design. I sure don't remember two rows of bays. When was that added? |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 11:11:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Dog1]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By M4-AR:
No way I'd step foot in the range. Layout looks very unsafe from the pics I've seen. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/38811/IMG-3381-126997.jpg Now that I have seen that pic, they wanted to increase their shooting bays, but turning them the other way would have them shooting toward the houses to the right. I don't know what is to the left, where the trees are, but it must not be populated. I agree, I don't think I would shoot there. |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 11:24:45 AM EDT
[#17]
Bad situation all around, hope it doesn't further restrict shooters in CA.
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Posted: 1/16/2017 11:37:33 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MRW:
In for the discovery that it was an accidental discharge from someone off the firing line dorking around with their gun behind the victim. That's my guess too. We'll see. |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 11:51:35 AM EDT
[#19]
Wow, I feel bad for all involved.
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Posted: 1/16/2017 11:57:01 AM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 1/16/2017 12:00:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Teamer:
Wow, I feel bad for all involved. May range is a little "overboard" on some of the safety stuff at times, but I'd WAY rather deal with "helmets and knee pads" safety levels than seeing someone bleed out at a match or just a day of shooting. Regardless I carry my own blowout kit in my range gear. And have zero problems calling someone out if they're being unsafe. I'd rather be a dick and save a life. |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 12:28:51 PM EDT
[#22]
You can't have anything on top of a berm with folks behind the berm.
My suspicion would lead me to really check out if the shot came from a ND. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2017 1:07:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Should be able to win that lawsuit just by looking at the overhead range pic.
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VT, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2017 4:08:18 PM EDT
[#24]
That is a really odd set up - what direction are people shooting - I assume into the long berms. That means, if you are shooting at the left side (per the picture) there are people on the right side shooting directly at your back?
Is that correct? |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 4:29:31 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Strudle54:
That is a really odd set up - what direction are people shooting - I assume into the long berms. That means, if you are shooting at the left side (per the picture) there are people on the right side shooting directly at your back? Is that correct? That's what it looked like to me. Slight higher elevation on the back row. |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 5:32:33 PM EDT
[#26]
Either the berms are high enough or they're not.
Based on this photo...  Attached FileThe current story is a round was fired with enough elevation to hit the plywood dirt splatter catcher on top of the 10-12 foot tall berm (using the porta-pottie for scale) which re-directed the round downward at an equal angle into a shooter in the forward bay. I've seen tracers do some crazy shit but I'm gonna wait for the official word before I blame the range. Have to agree with other shooters that a round fired from someone dicking with their gun behind the victim is more likely as horrific of a violation of USPSA safety practices as that is. |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 6:03:52 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lomshek:
Either the berms are high enough or they're not. Based on this photo... http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/38811/IMG-3381-126997.jpg The current story is a round was fired with enough elevation to hit the plywood dirt splatter catcher on top of the 10-12 foot tall berm (using the porta-pottie for scale) which re-directed the round downward at an equal angle into a shooter in the forward bay. I've seen tracers do some crazy shit but I'm gonna wait for the official word before I blame the range. Have to agree with other shooters that a round fired from someone dicking with their gun behind the victim is more likely as horrific of a violation of USPSA safety practices as that is. I agree that it's more likely someone finger fucked their gun, had a ND and he got hit. But that range layout is reckless. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2017 7:38:53 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lomshek:
Either the berms are high enough or they're not. Based on this photo... http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/38811/IMG-3381-126997.jpg The current story is a round was fired with enough elevation to hit the plywood dirt splatter catcher on top of the 10-12 foot tall berm (using the porta-pottie for scale) which re-directed the round downward at an equal angle into a shooter in the forward bay. I've seen tracers do some crazy shit but I'm gonna wait for the official word before I blame the range. Have to agree with other shooters that a round fired from someone dicking with their gun behind the victim is more likely as horrific of a violation of USPSA safety practices as that is. This really sums up my thoughts. I'm not sure I quite understand why they have plywood on top at all. If the berm isn't high enough, it's not high enough. And yes, bullets deflect like crazy by almost anything solid, regardless of how seamingly flimsy - way more than you think. Bottom line, very iffy range design, combined with someone who fucked up. A hot round should never have hit that board. He either lost it and sent a high one into it. Or maybe a ricochet off the ground. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2017 7:49:23 PM EDT
[#29]
I've been to the this range a few times for training.
We were at the north end in the gravel area above the main ranges. I was hit in the leg with splatter that had enough energy to draw a little blood. It came over quite a high berm. |
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Posted: 1/17/2017 1:17:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: out4trout]
[#30]
I'm not comfortable with how the range is laid out. Space is limited but I understand their thinking. As regulated as the ranges are in Calif. I'm sure someone from the state/county thought the plan was safe enough to grant an operating permit. To paraphrase a well known line .... "
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Posted: 1/19/2017 1:58:46 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer:
This really sums up my thoughts. I'm not sure I quite understand why they have plywood on top at all. If the berm isn't high enough, it's not high enough. <snip> One of the ranges I shoot at have lanes like that but facing each other (people on both sides shooting into the same berm). The plywood is there to catch splatter, dirt and rocks from being kicked over the berm into the lane behind it. No mater how tall the berm is, splatter is still going to make it over the berm. |
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Posted: 1/19/2017 2:12:12 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ScooterInVegas:
One of the ranges I shoot at have lanes like that but facing each other (people on both sides shooting into the same berm). The plywood is there to catch splatter, dirt and rocks from being kicked over the berm into the lane behind it. No mater how tall the berm is, splatter is still going to make it over the berm. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ScooterInVegas:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
This really sums up my thoughts. I'm not sure I quite understand why they have plywood on top at all. If the berm isn't high enough, it's not high enough. <snip> One of the ranges I shoot at have lanes like that but facing each other (people on both sides shooting into the same berm). The plywood is there to catch splatter, dirt and rocks from being kicked over the berm into the lane behind it. No mater how tall the berm is, splatter is still going to make it over the berm. Bullets run up the berm on dirt ranges. Its strange...but it happens. I was on one that used a metal canopy over the berm and rounds would "ding" the canopy over the dirt birm, some even made holes in it. Plus, dirt isn't dirt...it is rocks, wood, and so on. If they just pushed up some dirt, it could be anything. Ideally, a berm would be 2-3X as high as a standing shooter for a pistol range and about 5-6X for a rifle range, plus have some sort of lip or overhang to prevent rounds from exiting the top of the berm. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/26/2017 9:28:15 AM EDT
[#33]
Sad happening all the way around. I would seriously hate to hear that it was a ND at the match.
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Posted: 1/28/2017 10:59:44 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FedDC:Bullets run up the berm on dirt ranges. Its strange...but it happens. I was on one that used a metal canopy over the berm and rounds would "ding" the canopy over the dirt birm, some even made holes in it.
Plus, dirt isn't dirt...it is rocks, wood, and so on. If they just pushed up some dirt, it could be anything. Ideally, a berm would be 2-3X as high as a standing shooter for a pistol range and about 5-6X for a rifle range, plus have some sort of lip or overhang to prevent rounds from exiting the top of the berm. |
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Posted: 4/16/2017 10:11:22 AM EDT
[#35]
Were more details ever released about this?
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Posted: 4/16/2017 10:45:14 AM EDT
[#36]
Holy shit.
That range is fucking retarded, and that plywood makes it even worse. There's no telling what the rounds will do when it hits that plywood, let alone the rounds that hit the berm. |
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Posted: 4/16/2017 11:19:12 AM EDT
[#37]
That range design...
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Posted: 4/16/2017 11:28:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperSet72]
[#38]
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Posted: 4/16/2017 11:37:54 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSet72:
calguns thread for Raahagues incident Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSet72:
calguns thread for Raahagues incident The family of Lionel Tan has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Raahauges and Does 1 through 50, in the Riverside Superior Court. Doe 1 is most certainly the unknown shooter and Does 2-50 are just placeholders for future defendants, identities currently unknown. The plaintiffs' firm is Panish, Shea, and Boyle, and the defendant's attorney has not yet entered an appearance. The case number is RIC1702204 (Sai, et al vs. Mike Raahauges Shooting, et al). This case will undoubtedly focus on whether Raahauges exercised due care towards the decedent in the construction, design, layout, and operation of its range. |
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Posted: 4/16/2017 1:19:37 PM EDT
[#40]
That would suck to get sued because the range is unsafe.
The shooter could have been following all the rules, but the poor design resulted in a death. *Assuming he wasn't being unsafe |
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Posted: 4/16/2017 3:27:20 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dog1:
From the above posted thread on Cal Guns- |
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Posted: 4/16/2017 4:36:36 PM EDT
[#42]
Do I have this right, the shooter was using an AR and shot so high it went over the berm, but under the wooden backstop, then deflected downwards striking the man?
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CO, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2017 5:13:46 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3:
Do I have this right, the shooter was using an AR and shot so high it went over the berm, but under the wooden backstop, then deflected downwards striking the man? |
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Posted: 4/17/2017 2:54:15 AM EDT
[#44]
That's going to be tough to prove...
The reconstruction on that one is going to suck. Do they even know who shot him...or who was there? They have to prove the source of the fire first...and that would be hard. |
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Posted: 4/17/2017 3:57:18 AM EDT
[#45]
Looking at some of the photos on calguns forum, im going with partially shooter, partially range(mostly shitty range design). The berms appear to be 8-9 feet tall increasingly thinner as they get taller, at the top they dont appear to be much more than 1-2 inches of loose dirt then plywood. hitting the dirt, then plywood(which already has a BUNCH of bullet holes in it), then the other side of the plywood could certainly deflect a bullet 20 degrees downward into someone who from the Ariel photos would have been down range.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1291864&page=7 about halfway down teh page there is a photo of a guy shooting a glock and his target is at 6 feet, about 2-3 feet of berm above him and you can see the remains of a clay pigeon on the top left of the photo, as well as multiple prior strikes to the plywood(indicating that the range didnt PROPMTLY stop shooting at it). Im glad my range is a single line of bays. |
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Posted: 4/17/2017 10:11:56 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fsjdw2:
Looking at some of the photos on calguns forum, im going with partially shooter, partially range(mostly shitty range design). The berms appear to be 8-9 feet tall increasingly thinner as they get taller, at the top they dont appear to be much more than 1-2 inches of loose dirt then plywood. hitting the dirt, then plywood(which already has a BUNCH of bullet holes in it), then the other side of the plywood could certainly deflect a bullet 20 degrees downward into someone who from the Ariel photos would have been down range. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1291864&page=7 about halfway down teh page there is a photo of a guy shooting a glock and his target is at 6 feet, about 2-3 feet of berm above him and you can see the remains of a clay pigeon on the top left of the photo, as well as multiple prior strikes to the plywood(indicating that the range didnt PROPMTLY stop shooting at it). Im glad my range is a single line of bays. |
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Posted: 4/17/2017 10:35:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: j97531]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3:
Wow, that glock picture at the bottom of pg. 7 is very telling, especially with the number of strikes above the berm in the ply wood. ETA: failing at shocked face smiley. |
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Posted: 4/17/2017 11:13:03 AM EDT
[#48]
Our range was super lackadaisical about hitting the berm until somebody was shooting tracers and lit the land fill behind it on fire... The landfill has a couple guys that drive bulldozers running around constantly, and well that could have really sucked. So banned all tracers(except for one shoot in January at night when the dump is closed) and patrols regularly and they can (and have) booted shooters for violations.
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Posted: 4/17/2017 11:27:26 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fsjdw2:
Our range was super lackadaisical about hitting the berm until somebody was shooting tracers and lit the land fill behind it on fire... The landfill has a couple guys that drive bulldozers running around constantly, and well that could have really sucked. So banned all tracers(except for one shoot in January at night when the dump is closed) and patrols regularly and they can (and have) booted shooters for violations.
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