Posted: 1/28/2013 7:03:31 AM EDT
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So after a weekend of a practice match in Ft Smith Arkasas and a full distance match in Oklahoma City I know what I need to work on!
To keep things simple I ran Hornady 75's all weekend. I had to try and help myself a little.....This was my second match so far, only a 100 yard reduced was shot in Oct 12. The practice was OK, My 200 off hand was a 151. One miss....I do not know if I did not see the round on paper or what? I took the miss as we were scoring our own targets. Three 10's, seven 9's, two 8's, one 7, five 6's, and one 5. I was all over the place. We had almost no wind. I was a bit shakey and could not get a decent NPA. I forgot to bring down my elevation from my rapid 300 to the slow fire simulated at 300.....grouped high and lost a few points. Total was a 681 5x On to OK city for my fist "real" high power match! THE WIND WAS BLOWING! It was 20-25mph at 6-8o'clock with some 5 o'clock thrown in. I was on relay two so first up was learning how to run the pit! That was interesting and fun! When we were up to shoot I was already a mess..... Got my stuff out, gun, mat, ammo, jacket, and me.......I am a bit lacking on the gear, I'll aquire it over this year. We did our own scoring....I had my score card on the ground......... Once again I could not get a decent NPA, sighters were OK. I started with some sevens, eights, and a nine. Then miss.....a few more eights, nines, and two misses.....ended with a 136. The wind was at my back so it was not a huge problem, and I am sure it did not help any either. I know I rushed the missed shots. I was all over and broke the shots as I was already through the target. I shot my best 300 rapid so far!  A 191 7x! I was happy about it. Now I know I can at least do well on that stage! Slow fire 600 was a 169 1x. The wind! That and changing from clouds to sun, I was just fine with finishing my 20 rounds for record! Total was 675 9x
I gave away soo many points on my off hand. I know I need to practice lots of it. Dry fire and a mix of dry/live fire. Work on building up my position and checking my NPA every time. Any other suggestions for me would be helpful! 
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"How do you get to Broadway?"
"Practice." Sir, offhand is the position the fewest shooters practice or dry-fire because it's hard. The reason many folks can shoot an overall Sharpshooter or Expert score (or better) is because of support (a sling, your body, and the ground). Don't worry about gear -- it ain't about gadgetry. Shoot a 90+ score on your feet and you'll be competitive, ANYWHERE. That's all 10 shots being 9s in the black or better -- easy, huh? :D Congratulations, and bravo -- you are on your way!!! Your next goal should be breaking 700, then a 90+ in all stages (720). I kicked offhand's ass by getting an air gun target and cutting off a few scoring rings, then pasting that on the back of a target. This gave me an approximate-sized bullseye I could clip to the blinds in my wife's kitchen. Every night I would dry-fire in coat and glove, ten shots as best I could hold, then take everything off and do something else (play with the kids, talk to the wife, watch TV, or hand load). Then get kitted-up and do it again (basically shooting five or six dry standing matches every night). It will help you more than you can believe. GOOD LUCK, AND GOOD SHOOTING!. |
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I gave away soo many points on my off hand. I know I need to practice lots of it. Dry fire and a mix of dry/live fire. Work on building up my position and checking my NPA every time. Any other suggestions for me would be helpful! Buy an inexpensive match air rifle like the CMP Daisy 853 (or one of the nice, but expensive, AR match air uppers) and setup a range in the garage. Use it. |
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"How do you get to Broadway?" "Practice." Sir, offhand is the position the fewest shooters practice or dry-fire because it's hard. The reason many folks can shoot an overall Sharpshooter or Expert score (or better) is because of support (a sling, your body, and the ground). Don't worry about gear -- it ain't about gadgetry. Shoot a 90+ score on your feet and you'll be competitive, ANYWHERE. That's all 10 shots being 9s in the black or better -- easy, huh? :D Congratulations, and bravo -- you are on your way!!! Your next goal should be breaking 700, then a 90+ in all stages (720). I kicked offhand's ass by getting an air gun target and cutting off a few scoring rings, then pasting that on the back of a target. This gave me an approximate-sized bullseye I could clip to the blinds in my wife's kitchen. Every night I would dry-fire in coat and glove, ten shots as best I could hold, then take everything off and do something else (play with the kids, talk to the wife, watch TV, or hand load). Then get kitted-up and do it again (basically shooting five or six dry standing matches every night). It will help you more than you can believe. GOOD LUCK, AND GOOD SHOOTING!. Thanks for the advice! 
I have a black dot on a 8.5/11" sheet in the kitchen at the moment. I'll swap it out for a small dot on the right paper. I have a month till the next match. I'll dry fire every day, and get some live fire practice in here and there. I have my own range so it is so tempting to shoot instead of dry fire...... 
Goal of a 180+ for my off hand!
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I gave away soo many points on my off hand. I know I need to practice lots of it. Dry fire and a mix of dry/live fire. Work on building up my position and checking my NPA every time. Any other suggestions for me would be helpful! Buy an inexpensive match air rifle like the CMP Daisy 853 (or one of the nice, but expensive, AR match air uppers) and setup a range in the garage. Use it. Hmmm...... tempting but funds are thin and I have my own range to use...... Thanks for the suggestion! I'll keep that one for later. 
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Also, there are a few really good books on the topic, but they are not cheap.
For example, the airgun advice is excellent. Even standing up and dry firing will help. The books that cover the typical 3P shooting will teach you that your body position is very important and that the tiny differences in how you place your feet can make a big difference. The rest is about developing your balance, muscle control, and mental focus. Most books will go into the use of electronic systems such as the SCATT or similar. These use electronic transducers and various collimators hooked up onto your gun and they break down everything from an analytic view point. Those systems are how the best airgunners can hit the point at 10 meters in standing with less training effort than in the days before such tools existed. Here is an example of a volume that is translated from a European book. I learned much from it and I was a silhouetter before I discovered these books. http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Air_Rifle_Shooting.html Found another one. http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/WAYS_OF_THE_RIFLE_2009.html I can't find the Russian volume that the NRA used to publish. I have a copy at home and will update with that one too. If you look around at the type of web stores that are competition oriented, in their book sections you will find titles that will include sections on stand up shooting and mental training. You can certainly get there without reading these books, but my own opinion is that you couldn't prove that it wouldn't happen faster without the books unless you are talking about getting a live coach. YMMV Here is the reference: •Yur'Yev, A.A., Competitive Shooting, (English Translation published by the NRA), National Rifle Association, Washington, DC, 1985. Wow, amazing what Google can find. Here is an awesome list. http://www.oocities.org/colosseum/loge/4198/rifle/biblio.htm.tmp There are a few on here I will have to chase down for our own Junior Program. |
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and I have my own range to use
You, sir, are one lucky dog! You could save money using an air rifle or .22 if they balance the same and have the same sights as your rifle. Thank you!
I moved here from SoCal back in 2006 with the stipulation that we had to have room for a rifle range.
I'll look into a 22 upper that would match mine. How about a 22 conversion kit? Worth it for my RRA NM upper? Or would it be best to keep the 22 out of it and go with a dedicated upper? |
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Also, there are a few really good books on the topic, but they are not cheap. For example, the airgun advice is excellent. Even standing up and dry firing will help. The books that cover the typical 3P shooting will teach you that your body position is very important and that the tiny differences in how you place your feet can make a big difference. The rest is about developing your balance, muscle control, and mental focus. Most books will go into the use of electronic systems such as the SCATT or similar. These use electronic transducers and various collimators hooked up onto your gun and they break down everything from an analytic view point. Those systems are how the best airgunners can hit the point at 10 meters in standing with less training effort than in the days before such tools existed. Here is an example of a volume that is translated from a European book. I learned much from it and I was a silhouetter before I discovered these books. http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Air_Rifle_Shooting.html Found another one. http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/WAYS_OF_THE_RIFLE_2009.html I can't find the Russian volume that the NRA used to publish. I have a copy at home and will update with that one too. If you look around at the type of web stores that are competition oriented, in their book sections you will find titles that will include sections on stand up shooting and mental training. You can certainly get there without reading these books, but my own opinion is that you couldn't prove that it wouldn't happen faster without the books unless you are talking about getting a live coach. YMMV Here is the reference: •Yur'Yev, A.A., Competitive Shooting, (English Translation published by the NRA), National Rifle Association, Washington, DC, 1985. Wow, amazing what Google can find. Here is an awesome list. http://www.oocities.org/colosseum/loge/4198/rifle/biblio.htm.tmp There are a few on here I will have to chase down for our own Junior Program. Thanks for the link, checking out the books. My Dad lives a few minutes away from Creedmore, I may have him stop in a grab me a few things.
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I like the dedicated upper route. You can have one set up so it is impossible to feel any difference between it and your SR rig, right up to the point where the shot breaks.
If you weight it like your SR rig, you will feel you are shooting the same gun, just sending much less money downrange. There are also one or two airgun rigs to help simulate SR rigs. Crossman makes one that pins to your lower, and the other is really an Anschutz match rifle made up to feel like an AR. I can vouch for the accuracy of the match-bbl dedicated rimfire AR uppers, but not for the conversion kits. The dedicated rigs have the proper chamber and bbl twist for anything from plinking to match performance depending on your needs. Compass Lake and Accuracy Speaks have been building them for years and lately CMMG and M1S offer rigs that can come in with float tubes if you contract with them. Beyer BBls will make up a match bbl for you. Some of these are plinkers and will not hold the reduced range target x-ring, but many will. |
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For me, I've found that, after devoloping my upper position, that eye and hand coordination AND leg position affect me the most.
If you watch someone OH, watch his legs, they shake, they are slightly bent or putting most weight on one leg which means you are using muscle and not bone support. After I practice awhile I tend to shoot very good OH scores. This year I plan to do a lot more practice for my OH, trying to break 200, highest so far has been 199 12X in a match. I also don't suit up to practice, too hot, just getting legs and eye/hand coordanation down worked for me. JMHO 'Borg |
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Also, there are a few really good books on the topic, but they are not cheap. For example, the airgun advice is excellent. Even standing up and dry firing will help. The books that cover the typical 3P shooting will teach you that your body position is very important and that the tiny differences in how you place your feet can make a big difference. The rest is about developing your balance, muscle control, and mental focus. Most books will go into the use of electronic systems such as the SCATT or similar. These use electronic transducers and various collimators hooked up onto your gun and they break down everything from an analytic view point. Those systems are how the best airgunners can hit the point at 10 meters in standing with less training effort than in the days before such tools existed. Here is an example of a volume that is translated from a European book. I learned much from it and I was a silhouetter before I discovered these books. http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Air_Rifle_Shooting.html Found another one. http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/WAYS_OF_THE_RIFLE_2009.html I can't find the Russian volume that the NRA used to publish. I have a copy at home and will update with that one too. If you look around at the type of web stores that are competition oriented, in their book sections you will find titles that will include sections on stand up shooting and mental training. You can certainly get there without reading these books, but my own opinion is that you couldn't prove that it wouldn't happen faster without the books unless you are talking about getting a live coach. YMMV Here is the reference: •Yur'Yev, A.A., Competitive Shooting, (English Translation published by the NRA), National Rifle Association, Washington, DC, 1985. Wow, amazing what Google can find. Here is an awesome list. http://www.oocities.org/colosseum/loge/4198/rifle/biblio.htm.tmp There are a few on here I will have to chase down for our own Junior Program. Thanks for the link, checking out the books. My Dad lives a few minutes away from Creedmore, I may have him stop in a grab me a few things. Sir, I visited Creedmoor Sports a few months ago, I wanted to inquire about a rifle I ordered a few months earlier. It's not a store but a warehouse. I would call before you ask your dad to drop by. I don't think they do walk in sales. 7zero1 out |
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Don't over think Off Hand. It's all about good posture that limits direct muscle involvement, NPA, Sight Alignment and Trigger Control. You need to build the position before you waste anytime squeezing the trigger. Without a good position you will be reinforcing bad habits. Once in position you need to find a way to RELAX your muscles and allow the position to maintain the NPA and sight alignment. Then the hardest thing (IMHO) is breaking a clean shot without disturbing the hold. You need to be gentle on the trigger yet aggressive during the right opportunity. I know it seems like an oxymoron but it's true and it is a vital part of your success or failure in Off Hand.
If we knew our hold would stay perfect for an indefinite period of time, then we would be able to concentrate on gently squeezing the shot into the center. The reality is that all our holds, even during the best of days, are going to present an optimal amount of stability and stillness for only a fraction of a second, maybe 1/2 a second may a little more... but not much. That is where the aggressive decision making, albeit mostly subconscious reaction, needs to come into play but not overpower our ability to be gentle and controlled on the trigger. When our mind says "SHOOT" it is a natural reaction to tense the body somewhat and that is score killing at its finest. Your hold can be a solid X ring hold but if you can't execute the shot without having even minor muscle tension during the execution, then you will be squirting shots out all over the place, just not the center. |
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That brings up a good point, about being able to "snatch" that trigger break with Zen-like subconsciousness.
Once you learn to place your feet, legs, body, and arms, your follow-through should be good and you need to try and call your shots when you dry fire. If you pick up an airgun or rimfire, try to select a representative two stage trigger with roughly the same settings as your SR rig. I was spoiled by my air rifles and silhouette triggers (Anschutz triggers are great for off-hand). I run GA triggers on my lowers specifically to help with offhand. I raised my rimfire silhouette rig's trigger to match my SR rig's trigger so that it makes good practise too. Between airgun, silhouette, and rimfire AR, there are good options to make off-hand practise less expensive. |
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Here are some things that I have learned over the last few years:
First, using a center mass hold can give you more confidence than a 6 o'clock hold. The front sight is always in the black that way. Second, if you call your shot left, right, or whatever and the shot is in the black then you were looking at the front sight. If you call it left, right, etc and it is out in the 6 ring (or worse) then you were looking at the target and NOT your front sight. When I first started high power I would shoot and then chamber the next round while waiting for the pits to score and run my target. One of the shooters pointed out that the longer the round sits in the chamber, the more it heats up. Granted, that it is just a little change, but you may be able to see a slight change in elevation from the warmer rounds. Get a carbide smoker or some similar trick. It is MUCH better than spraying Sight Black on your post. A couple years ago I shot a decent score offhand, then the very next match was all over the place. Both times I thought I had a good NPOA. I had asked an exerienced shooter to watch me and critique me both times. He said that the second time my feet were much wider. So for my own position, there is a point where I can have a NPOA but my position sucks, and a point where I have NPOA and a solid position. I am still experimenting with this, so you may have different results. Sounds like you know what your doing already, but I hope that some of this helps. |
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Here are some things that I have learned over the last few years: First, using a center mass hold can give you more confidence than a 6 o'clock hold. The front sight is always in the black that way. I am using a 6 o'clock hold... Second, if you call your shot left, right, or whatever and the shot is in the black then you were looking at the front sight. If you call it left, right, etc and it is out in the 6 ring (or worse) then you were looking at the target and NOT your front sight.I seem to be calling my shots fairly well, no big difference in actual and call When I first started high power I would shoot and then chamber the next round while waiting for the pits to score and run my target. One of the shooters pointed out that the longer the round sits in the chamber, the more it heats up. Granted, that it is just a little change, but you may be able to see a slight change in elevation from the warmer rounds. I chambered the round, then waited to see the target scored, then closed the bolt. Not sure if that would make any difference or not Get a carbide smoker or some similar trick. It is MUCH better than spraying Sight Black on your post. Will do! A couple years ago I shot a decent score offhand, then the very next match was all over the place. Both times I thought I had a good NPOA. I had asked an exerienced shooter to watch me and critique me both times. He said that the second time my feet were much wider. So for my own position, there is a point where I can have a NPOA but my position sucks, and a point where I have NPOA and a solid position. I am still experimenting with this, so you may have different results. Sounds like you know what your doing already, but I hope that some of this helps. Thanks for the suggestions! I don't know if I know what I am doing or not.......but I am sure trying!
Next match should be the end of Feb in OK city again. Doing lots of dry fire drills and plotting called shots. I'll get some live fire practice drills in soon. Still working on building a solid off hand position, getting better already. |
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I found out that the biggest factor for me was NPA. Once I started establishing that, my scores increased immediately. I'll get lined up, close my eyes, turn a bit from side-to-side, let myself settle, open my eyes and see where I'm at. Sometimes it takes me 3 or 4 tries, but when I open my eyes, and my front sight is on the target in a right-to-left orientation, I'm good to go. You should also be able to tell if your NPA is good from the follow-through on your shot - it should come back to the target.
The less you have to muscle that sight onto the target, the more your body is relaxed and the less movement your front sight will have. Focus on that front sight, make sure it's nice and crisp, and you should be able to call your shots very accurately. Good luck! |
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A 196? That's darn good for a noobie. I know several people that can't shoot that after 20 years. Keep it up, you'll make Master quick. 'Borg Thank you! Yes, 196 for my rapid prone stage.
Noob to high power, but not to a rifle...... I like the challenge, and I like to shoot. Now I need to learn to read the wind at 600! My standing, seated, and slow prone have lots of room for improvement........ |
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Don't over think Off Hand. It's all about good posture that limits direct muscle involvement, NPA, Sight Alignment and Trigger Control. You need to build the position before you waste anytime squeezing the trigger. Without a good position you will be reinforcing bad habits. Once in position you need to find a way to RELAX your muscles and allow the position to maintain the NPA and sight alignment. Then the hardest thing (IMHO) is breaking a clean shot without disturbing the hold. You need to be gentle on the trigger yet aggressive during the right opportunity. I know it seems like an oxymoron but it's true and it is a vital part of your success or failure in Off Hand. If we knew our hold would stay perfect for an indefinite period of time, then we would be able to concentrate on gently squeezing the shot into the center. The reality is that all our holds, even during the best of days, are going to present an optimal amount of stability and stillness for only a fraction of a second, maybe 1/2 a second may a little more... but not much. That is where the aggressive decision making, albeit mostly subconscious reaction, needs to come into play but not overpower our ability to be gentle and controlled on the trigger. When our mind says "SHOOT" it is a natural reaction to tense the body somewhat and that is score killing at its finest. Your hold can be a solid X ring hold but if you can't execute the shot without having even minor muscle tension during the execution, then you will be squirting shots out all over the place, just not the center. This is what I was practicing the most!
My only queston is about breathing. Do you use the same breathing tecniques as with prone and seated? I have heard some people mention that exhale and then inhale slightly for a steady hold. |
| Truthfully I am not conscious of my breathing in the slowfire events. Rapids I am deliberate with my breathing and use it to create cadence. I'm not even entirely sure if I shoot offhand in the inhale or exhale. I will have to take notice of it next time I practice. |
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Truthfully I am not conscious of my breathing in the slowfire events. Rapids I am deliberate with my breathing and use it to create cadence. I'm not even entirely sure if I shoot offhand in the inhale or exhale. I will have to take notice of it next time I practice. Got it.
Thanks |
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Truthfully I am not conscious of my breathing in the slowfire events. Rapids I am deliberate with my breathing and use it to create cadence. I'm not even entirely sure if I shoot offhand in the inhale or exhale. I will have to take notice of it next time I practice. Got it.
Thanks For me, breathing is important and I control it in every stage. You should notice when you are building your NPOA that your sight moves up and down as you breath. This is true in all positions, although you don't notice it as much in off-hand because you are already moving around more than usual. For slow fire, you should let out about 80% of your breath and settle into the NPOA. Then work to break the shot evenly while the sight is in the black. For rapid fire, you should let out about 80% of your breath and settle into the NPOA. You can hold your breath and have good position for two or three shots (most people can hold for about 7 or 8 seconds before they start to lose their sight picture). Since you have a time limit and more than three shots to make, you can try taking a small breath in and out every few shots. This will help keep the oxygen in your blood, keep you settled down into your NPOA, and sets up that cadence that is mentioned above. A sequence of fire might go like this: Breath in and out, settle on the NPOA, squeeze off two rounds, take a couple deep breaths while changing mags, let your breath out and settle into NPOA, take two shots, short breath in and out, take two shots, short breath in and out, take two shots, short breath in and out, take two shots and done. |
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Truthfully I am not conscious of my breathing in the slowfire events. Rapids I am deliberate with my breathing and use it to create cadence. I'm not even entirely sure if I shoot offhand in the inhale or exhale. I will have to take notice of it next time I practice. Got it.
Thanks For me, breathing is important and I control it in every stage. You should notice when you are building your NPOA that your sight moves up and down as you breath. This is true in all positions, although you don't notice it as much in off-hand because you are already moving around more than usual. For slow fire, you should let out about 80% of your breath and settle into the NPOA. Then work to break the shot evenly while the sight is in the black. For rapid fire, you should let out about 80% of your breath and settle into the NPOA. You can hold your breath and have good position for two or three shots (most people can hold for about 7 or 8 seconds before they start to lose their sight picture). Since you have a time limit and more than three shots to make, you can try taking a small breath in and out every few shots. This will help keep the oxygen in your blood, keep you settled down into your NPOA, and sets up that cadence that is mentioned above. A sequence of fire might go like this: Breath in and out, settle on the NPOA, squeeze off two rounds, take a couple deep breaths while changing mags, let your breath out and settle into NPOA, take two shots, short breath in and out, take two shots, short breath in and out, take two shots, short breath in and out, take two shots and done. +1 Agree, breathing is part of your NPA in every stage. Some guys think they don't pay attention to it, but that just means they are very consistent without focusing on it. |
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I take a quick breath each shot in the rapids. I breath in till the front post is where it's supposed to be and shut off the air like a valve, check sight pic and fire. I also setup my npa to be lined up more at the top of my breath so I have time to wait out floaters, eyes blurring out, pulse beat, seagulls ect. without running out of air and washing out the sight picture.
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| I do something you are not technically supposed to do. I mentally shoot the first 10 I see, I don't physically shoot it. If I bounce a little in that motion it's because I'm not settled and I would have pulled the shot a little. Then I smile at myself, exhale that excited breath and while sliding back into the 10 ring pull the shot. It's always better. |