[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Appleseed (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/26/2012 5:32:23 PM EDT
| Who here has attended an Appleseed event? Was it worth it? |
|
Quoted:
Who here has attended an Appleseed event? Was it worth it? Yes, as both a student an an Instructor-In-Training. If you want to learn how to shoot a rifle well, it is an excellent value. You will also learn some important (and interesting) American history. I've always thought of myself as a fairly good rifle shooter. Appleseed helped me refine my skills, and I now feel even more confident in my ability to shoot accurately––especially using iron sights. Of course, optics are perfectly fine, too. |
|
No better training for the money, IMHO.
I have done a couple of them, last one with a 300BLK, write up here :300BLK Appleseed |
| I was a range safety officer representing my range for 3 or 4 Appleseeds. They were strictly organized and run such that they didn't really need me.. Basics of rifle marksmenship. Fast paced, but worth doing. I did note that the prefered equipment is a military rifle in 30 cal with a detachablae box magazine and iron sights, but the folks who did best used 22s with scopes. There is a strong running theme of patriotism with readings of revolutionary war history. People with bad knees or bad backs may have problems with some of the transitions between shooting positions. |
|
The targets are sized down so that you can shoot it at 25 meters with .22's. It's cheap, and more people will actually do it that way, although you can shoot it with pretty much whatever rifle you like. The fundamentals are still the same.
It is a very worthwhile course even if you've been shooting a long time. It's always good to have someone watch you for those little things you don't notice yourself doing. Note that at some or most there they are free or reduced price for women or active military. I've seen whole family's show up with 2 van loads. |
|
I attended one as a student, along with my Wife. It was advertised to a women's shooting group as appropriate for new shooters and IMNSHO that led to some issues. They used 2 ranges, one for the guys and one for the women (where they did spend much more time coaching them). My thoughts on it aren't likely to be very popular, but here goes! - For those that never shot "slinged up" before, I feel that they need to spend more time "training" the shooters how to transition safely w/o the barrel getting away from the shooter (and potentially sweeping other shooters)! This happened to me once and I learned to modify how I held the rifle (10/22) while moving/transitioning. Feedback from the women's group told me that this was a serious issue and some shooters didn't "get it". [In contrast, I'm RO at my gun club the day they run CMP matches. Those running the matches spend the 1st hour each match going over technique issues for the new CMP shooters and they run an excellent event w/o problems.] - It rained all weekend and we were literally lying in mud (even on shooting mats) most of the time. I'm too old for the military, so I don't really enjoy that, sorry. [Even 2 years later and after a number of washing/scrubbing sessions I can't get the embedded mud out of the shooting mats!] - They should have told us to bring large trash bags (some to sit on in the car, some to put the muddy gear in so car and trunk don't get crapped up). The mud in my car (and would have been embedded in the cloth seats as well) was incredible. - The history was interesting, but some wrt a particular person I knew something about turned out to be wrong. Oh well. - Few shot anything but 10/22s, which is the ideal gun for this event. I shot ~1800 rds over both days, whereas my Wife shot ~800 rds. Would have been horrendously expensive with CF rifle ammo. - For those of us with graduated bifocals, coupled with the rain/humidity, it was a much greater challenge to shoot accurately than for the younger crowd that only wear glasses for range safety reasons. Only after this event did I find out about anti-fog sprays for eye glasses (coated plastic lenses, so one must be careful not to use some chemicals that could damage expensive Rx glasses). Some advice about this from those running the event (beforehand) would be very useful. - Very little (too little IMNSHO) time was spent with the guys going over techniques in slinging the rifle (I wasn't using it properly and nobody pointed that out until day 2), how to hold the rifle in the different positions, how to avoid barrel swing, etc. All in all, I do think it a worthwhile event, but I don't think it is appropriate for those with little/no experience shooting slinged rifles! Background: As much as I've been shooting for >30 years, it is mostly pistol. Rifle shooting is never slinged up. I don't shoot competitively. Most of my rifle shooting in recent years has been AR15 (with Aimpoint) of MN M44 (irons) for fun at 50 yds. My Wife regularly shoots the 10/22 and .22 pistol, but from the bench or standing only. She never shot prone or sitting/kneeling before the Appleseed and had never used a sling. |
|
I gotta ask since I see references to it in every thread about Appleseeds...why would I want to get a history lesson at a shooting class? As a historian and a rifle shooting enthusiast, I wouldn't normally look to either for input on the other. I see so many references to it that I have to wonder if it's another "this is the REAL history that liberal media doesn't want you to know", which I have very short patience for anyway, and sure as hell wouldn't pay money to hear during a marksmanship course.
So what's the summary of historical topics, and what makes the Appleseed instructors qualified to speak to it? Anyone know? (this might not be the right thread to ask...) |
|
Quoted:
I gotta ask since I see references to it in every thread about Appleseeds...why would I want to get a history lesson at a shooting class? As a historian and a rifle shooting enthusiast, I wouldn't normally look to either for input on the other. I see so many references to it that I have to wonder if it's another "this is the REAL history that liberal media doesn't want you to know", which I have very short patience for anyway, and sure as hell wouldn't pay money to hear during a marksmanship course. So what's the summary of historical topics, and what makes the Appleseed instructors qualified to speak to it? Anyone know? (this might not be the right thread to ask...) This is the book they use They are teaching a tradition is how I take it. |
|
It is political, they do have an agenda. They do teach some history of April 19, 1775 to the students. The following websites will give you plenty of info: http://appleseedinfo.org/index.html http://appleseedinfo.org/appleseed-mission.html http://appleseedinfo.org/news/news-2007-04-03.html Once you achieve a minimum score they award you a "Rifleman" patch. Some that reach that award are asked to be Apprentice Instructors and can work up to Instructor and beyond. |
|
Quoted:
It is political, they do have an agenda. They do teach some history of April 19, 1775 to the students. The following websites will give you plenty of info: http://appleseedinfo.org/index.html http://appleseedinfo.org/appleseed-mission.html http://appleseedinfo.org/news/news-2007-04-03.html Once you achieve a minimum score they award you a "Rifleman" patch. Some that reach that award are asked to be Apprentice Instructors and can work up to Instructor and beyond. I have a thread in another forum and all the instructors came to it. They claim they have no agenda and only talk about the start of our nation. We will see if that is true or not. |
|
Well, the mission webpage explains their agenda/mission. It's to educate one person at a time on the history and to train each person to be a marksman. Then if you sign on their web forum, you will get spammed forever and a day. They hope each person participating will go out and recruit more people, etc. NOTE: I tried to opt out of their Emails and finally gave up. I set up a rule that auto-deletes their messages as they hit my Inbox so I never see them anymore. |
|
They are not supposed to discuss current political issues.
The history they discuss is the events leading up to April 19th, 1775 and the events at Concord, Lexington and the fighting from Concord back to Boston. The route called Battle Road where the various colonial militias took turns working the Red Coats over for the combination of murder, theft and arson done by the Red Coats as they retreated back to Boston. There was more to it, yes. But the idea is to get you to thinking about how the colonials at that place and time prepared, organized and fought together to protect themselves, their neighbors and their property. All they should be doing concerning the current political situation is urging people to get out of their loungers, couches, etc., out of the house and get involved in their local politics so that they have a say in what happens to the country over the next few years. Is the training too much, too fast, too hard? Most people don't think so but there's always some folks who aren't satisfied about some aspects of it. Its a lot of information and a lot of work in a short period of time. No, its not easy. Its not a gimme. You have to work for it. You can learn a lot if you arrive with your gear ready to go and keep an open mind. Was I a good shot before I went to my first Appleseed? Damn right. Expert with my M14 every time I qualified with it during my 4 years in the army. I never missed a deer. I have missed 2 or 3 groundhogs over the years. Was I a better shot after those first 2 days? Maybe. After I attended one of the RBCs at Ramseur, NC I damn sure was a better shot - and I understood more about how/why of being a good rifle shooter. What they teach you is not sitting a bench with a rifle on a set of blocks/bags shooting at a single target at a known range at any rate of fire you feel like doing or can manage. They teach you to shoot from "field" positions, off hand, sitting/kneeling and prone. They have you fire your rifle at variable sized targets (to simulate variable ranges) while doing position changes, magazine changes and target changes. Three of the four stages have multiple targets. It may take you two or three Appleseeds to shoot a rifleman score on the 25 meter AQT, it may not. I've seen people do it their very first Appleseed. Its not easy. On average only about 15% of the people attending shoot a rifleman score. Why in the world would anyone feel good about a gimmee? Work for it and you'll appreciate all the more when you earn it. Have fun and learn and get better. |
|
When I attended, the head instructor stated that, only to follow with an entire day of current political discourse. I was not impressed. The shooting fundamentals they teach are good, I just didn't care for the history lessons.
Quoted: They are not supposed to discuss current political issues. .............. |
|
One of the problems of a large organization of volunteers. They smile at the head office and say one thing and then get out on their own and do another. I saw similar things as an instructor. Some shoot bosses completely ignored parts of the training that other shoot bosses believed were fundamental to the aim of the program.
Its still good training. I think the story of the events leading up to the battles of April 19th, 1775 are both thought provoking and something that makes me proud to be an American. Anyone who isn't moved by what those people believed in and what they accomplished needs to spend some time thinking about their roots and whether or not they're proud to be American. They knew what was important. Doing whatever it takes to provide a more secure future for your children and your children's children - not whatever makes you more comfortable at this moment or the near future. |
|
I did Appleseed in 2009 & 2010. I loved it. They teach military rear apature sights,and the use of the" Loop Sling".
Buy Fred's "Guide to becomming a Rifleman", and study/practise before you go. I qualified "Rifleman" both times. I think it's underpriced for what you get. |
|
LenS makes good points about the good and the less than perfect.
AS teaches basic marksmanship with a definite bent toward NRA highpower style sport shooting with a sling. Never could figure out why they are OK with a scope (scopes are actually highly encouraged), but resting the rifle in any way (including magazine, bipod, etc.) is forbidden. Doesn't make sense to me. AS is NOT for new shooters. A person should have several range sessions in before attending. AS does not typically teach real distance shooting. Everything is at 25 meters for 90%+ of their events. AS teaches some methods that are contrary to modern fighting rifle concepts. Understand it is labeled as "marksmanship for marksmanship's sake" more or less. AS founder, "Fred," is an... eclectic... character, to say the least. Same could be said for many in AS "management." The organization recently "fired" a good number of quality individuals who taught for free for them. 
AS allows .22's. Shoot all day for $20 of ammo. That's a great deal. AS only costs around $70 or so. Many training classes are way more. Some AS classes have a portion that is shot at real distance. There is nothing better to teach shooting long range than actually shooting long range. IMC as taught by AS is the best way I've ever seen to teach how to adjust sights. Period. |
|
Quoted:
LenS makes good points about the good and the less than perfect. AS teaches basic marksmanship with a definite bent toward NRA highpower style sport shooting with a sling. Never could figure out why they are OK with a scope (scopes are actually highly encouraged), but resting the rifle in any way (including magazine, bipod, etc.) is forbidden. Doesn't make sense to me. AS is NOT for new shooters. A person should have several range sessions in before attending. AS does not typically teach real distance shooting. Everything is at 25 meters for 90%+ of their events. AS teaches some methods that are contrary to modern fighting rifle concepts. Understand it is labeled as "marksmanship for marksmanship's sake" more or less. AS founder, "Fred," is an... eclectic... character, to say the least. Same could be said for many in AS "management." The organization recently "fired" a good number of quality individuals who taught for free for them.
AS allows .22's. Shoot all day for $20 of ammo. That's a great deal. AS only costs around $70 or so. Many training classes are way more. Some AS classes have a portion that is shot at real distance. There is nothing better to teach shooting long range than actually shooting long range. IMC as taught by AS is the best way I've ever seen to teach how to adjust sights. Period. I'm glad you mentioned that, as I found that to be true. It is simple enough that I use IMC when I teach patrol rifle. |
|
Exactly. I shot irons on an AR-15 converted to .22lr and it was challenging for me at 25m. Those nailing it with a scope at the same distance made it all seem a little ridiculous. I mean really, a scope at 25m? Whatever, it was a fun day of shooting.
Quoted: LenS makes good points about the good and the less than perfect. AS teaches basic marksmanship with a definite bent toward NRA highpower style sport shooting with a sling. Never could figure out why they are OK with a scope (scopes are actually highly encouraged), but resting the rifle in any way (including magazine, bipod, etc.) is forbidden. Doesn't make sense to me. AS is NOT for new shooters. A person should have several range sessions in before attending. AS does not typically teach real distance shooting. Everything is at 25 meters for 90%+ of their events. AS teaches some methods that are contrary to modern fighting rifle concepts. Understand it is labeled as "marksmanship for marksmanship's sake" more or less. AS founder, "Fred," is an... eclectic... character, to say the least. Same could be said for many in AS "management." The organization recently "fired" a good number of quality individuals who taught for free for them. AS allows .22's. Shoot all day for $20 of ammo. That's a great deal. AS only costs around $70 or so. Many training classes are way more. Some AS classes have a portion that is shot at real distance. There is nothing better to teach shooting long range than actually shooting long range. IMC as taught by AS is the best way I've ever seen to teach how to adjust sights. Period. |
|
I have been to two shoots. Have yet to make Rifleman. It is quite the challenge!
Next one I attend, I will have a nicely built 10/22 to help me achieve that Patch! I know I can shoot, and the training has definitely helped my rifle shooting at long range 3-Gun matches. I would like to see an 'Advanced course'. Maybe just a 1 day deal with a refresher in the morning of the positions and techniques, and then plug away at qualifiers all day, and perhaps some advanced techniques. And, since shooters will have to be required to have at least one AS under their belt, we can skip the history lessons. While I like the lessons the first time around, I don't need to hear it multiple times. |
|
Quoted:
I have been to two shoots. Have yet to make Rifleman. It is quite the challenge! Next one I attend, I will have a nicely built 10/22 to help me achieve that Patch! I know I can shoot, and the training has definitely helped my rifle shooting at long range 3-Gun matches. I would like to see an 'Advanced course'. Maybe just a 1 day deal with a refresher in the morning of the positions and techniques, and then plug away at qualifiers all day, and perhaps some advanced techniques. And, since shooters will have to be required to have at least one AS under their belt, we can skip the history lessons. While I like the lessons the first time around, I don't need to hear it multiple times. You could always attend a Rifleman's Boot Camp. 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have been to two shoots. Have yet to make Rifleman. It is quite the challenge! Next one I attend, I will have a nicely built 10/22 to help me achieve that Patch! I know I can shoot, and the training has definitely helped my rifle shooting at long range 3-Gun matches. I would like to see an 'Advanced course'. Maybe just a 1 day deal with a refresher in the morning of the positions and techniques, and then plug away at qualifiers all day, and perhaps some advanced techniques. And, since shooters will have to be required to have at least one AS under their belt, we can skip the history lessons. While I like the lessons the first time around, I don't need to hear it multiple times. You could always attend a Rifleman's Boot Camp. That would be a little too advanced! |
|
The RBC (rifleman's boot camp) I attended at Ramseur, NC was great. That was before the current .22 craze. There was a couple of .22's but most everyone was shooting M1A's, M1 Garands or AR15's. We started off shooting at 25 meters (like an Appleseed) and then went to the full distance range later in the week to first work on getting our sight adjustments down for 100, 200, 300 and 400 yds. and then to fire a full distance AQT. Six days of shooting. All kinds of exercises (some of them may seem wacky at first - like shooting a five shot group with your eyes closed) but its amazing what you learn about yourself, your rifle and how to make it all work. Oh, shooting the 5 shot group with your eyes closed - that's what showed me I really didn't have my NPOA and I really was using my muscles to force the sights to the target. They do it differently now but there are still lots of neat things that you just don't have time for in a 2 day appleseed.
If you like to shoot, that's the way to go. A whole week of rifle shooting with a group of people who also like to shoot rifles. The first few were held in Ramseur years ago but now they have them at various places around the country (California, Montana, Wyoming, etc.) |
|
Quoted:
Exactly. I shot irons on an AR-15 converted to .22lr and it was challenging for me at 25m. Those nailing it with a scope at the same distance made it all seem a little ridiculous. I mean really, a scope at 25m? Whatever, it was a fun day of shooting.
Quoted:
LenS makes good points about the good and the less than perfect. AS teaches basic marksmanship with a definite bent toward NRA highpower style sport shooting with a sling. Never could figure out why they are OK with a scope (scopes are actually highly encouraged), but resting the rifle in any way (including magazine, bipod, etc.) is forbidden. Doesn't make sense to me. AS is NOT for new shooters. A person should have several range sessions in before attending. AS does not typically teach real distance shooting. Everything is at 25 meters for 90%+ of their events. AS teaches some methods that are contrary to modern fighting rifle concepts. Understand it is labeled as "marksmanship for marksmanship's sake" more or less. AS founder, "Fred," is an... eclectic... character, to say the least. Same could be said for many in AS "management." The organization recently "fired" a good number of quality individuals who taught for free for them.
AS allows .22's. Shoot all day for $20 of ammo. That's a great deal. AS only costs around $70 or so. Many training classes are way more. Some AS classes have a portion that is shot at real distance. There is nothing better to teach shooting long range than actually shooting long range. IMC as taught by AS is the best way I've ever seen to teach how to adjust sights. Period. Scopes are used for several reasons- 1. They make the process considerably easier- your eye can only focus on ONE thing at a time. If you are shooting irons you are having to align THREE things. With a scope it's only TWO.....Which is easier? 2. Not everyone is 19. At some point peoples' eyesight changes, it varies from person to person but the fact is that as one ages it becomes increasingly difficult to shoot iron sights effectively. 3. Most long guns these days use some form of optic......even in combat. Even the die hard–– "We shoot real rifles with iron sights" U.S. Marines now issue ACOG's etc....many modern rifles are sold with NO iron sights at all. The people who condemn iron sights are foolish, they have been used (red dots for example) in combat for over 40 years at this point and are well proven. Should a weapon have backup irons? Sure, but they are NOT the most EFFECTIVE tool for the job. Every shooter should know how to use iron sights. Every rifle should ideally have them available. Their day however, is rapidly passing. |
|
I will say the appleseed I attended was very professional and included top notch instruction. Since the majority of my shooting has always been "tactical/action" shooting in 3 gun, IPSC etc it was a nice change to go over the basic rifle marksmanship. That said, I will not attend another appleseed. While laying prone my shirt came up exposing my carry gun. I was discreetly pulled off the line and asked to put my handgun in my vehicle. Apparently they do not allow CCW holders to carry while attending the shoots. When asked why the instructors could carry, I was given a "because they've been through the instructor program" BS answer.
I have a very hard time dealing with the hypocrisy of an organization that promotes the ideals of freedom and liberty based on the Constitution and Bill of Rights, advocating the utter importance of an armed and trained populace, and then turns around and prohibits a lawful CCW holder from carrying while in class. |
|
I attended an Appleseed in Ramsuer last October. I found the whole event was worth the money. My views from that experience:
Pros: "Run what you brung" format, could be a $3k custom Ar or a 10-22 fresh from Walmart. Familiarity trough repetition with the drills. I found the first bit of the class a little slow but once you started the AQT grind it became better Fundamentals translate to any rifle with any sighting system. Controlling sight picture, trigger position, sight alignment, and NPOA are key The staff and instructors were friendly, helpful, and usually would go out of their way to help Two days of training for $80 Cons If you have shot before, the safety briefing is painful to sit through(completely necessary though) Realize that this is a class for marksmanship, not tactical training. A lot of what they teach may not align with what you may have learned at a carbine/pistol course Markmanship at range. A lot of the facilities do not have the means to provide shooting past the 25 yard mark. While I agree that techniques they teach apply directly to shooting at extended ranges (200-400 yards), scaled down targets are not the same as full distance shooting. (I was able to shoot the full length range at Ramsuer, and was humbled to say the least) I encourage anyone to attend one of these classes, you should just know ahead of time what they are all about. I think that bringing an open mind and a teachable attitude is the best thing that you can do to make the class worthwhile. A lot of the guys who have shot some before show up and think they know it all; they are then outshoot by a 12 year old who paid attention to what the instructor was saying. I was able shoot Rifleman the first day with a bone stock M&P15 MOE |
|
Quoted:
I will say the appleseed I attended was very professional and included top notch instruction. Since the majority of my shooting has always been "tactical/action" shooting in 3 gun, IPSC etc it was a nice change to go over the basic rifle marksmanship. That said, I will not attend another appleseed. While laying prone my shirt came up exposing my carry gun. I was discreetly pulled off the line and asked to put my handgun in my vehicle. Apparently they do not allow CCW holders to carry while attending the shoots. When asked why the instructors could carry, I was given a "because they've been through the instructor program" BS answer. I have a very hard time dealing with the hypocrisy of an organization that promotes the ideals of freedom and liberty based on the Constitution and Bill of Rights, advocating the utter importance of an armed and trained populace, and then turns around and prohibits a lawful CCW holder from carrying while in class. It wasn't always like that and it caused a lot of internal strife when the rule change occurred. The stated reason 5 years ago was insurance. Appleseed is a rifle marksmanship program, not handguns. The fear (justified or not) was what would happen if someone was accidently shot with an attendees handgun? Sorry you feel that way. The training is fundamental rifle marksmanship. No matter how safe you may be with your handgun there's a bunch of folks out there who don't pay attention to where they point theirs, where their finger is at, etc. |
|
Quoted:
I attended an Appleseed in Ramsuer last October. I found the whole event was worth the money. My views from that experience: Pros: "Run what you brung" format, could be a $3k custom Ar or a 10-22 fresh from Walmart. Familiarity trough repetition with the drills. I found the first bit of the class a little slow but once you started the AQT grind it became better Fundamentals translate to any rifle with any sighting system. Controlling sight picture, trigger position, sight alignment, and NPOA are key The staff and instructors were friendly, helpful, and usually would go out of their way to help Two days of training for $80 Cons If you have shot before, the safety briefing is painful to sit through(completely necessary though) Realize that this is a class for marksmanship, not tactical training. A lot of what they teach may not align with what you may have learned at a carbine/pistol course Markmanship at range. A lot of the facilities do not have the means to provide shooting past the 25 yard mark. While I agree that techniques they teach apply directly to shooting at extended ranges (200-400 yards), scaled down targets are not the same as full distance shooting. (I was able to shoot the full length range at Ramsuer, and was humbled to say the least) I encourage anyone to attend one of these classes, you should just know ahead of time what they are all about. I think that bringing an open mind and a teachable attitude is the best thing that you can do to make the class worthwhile. A lot of the guys who have shot some before show up and think they know it all; they are then outshoot by a 12 year old who paid attention to what the instructor was saying. I was able shoot Rifleman the first day with a bone stock M&P15 MOE Funny thing is I always thought full distance was easier than the 25 meter shooting. Full distance is one target at each range. You don't have to break your position/NPOA between targets like you do on the 25 meter AQT. More time to get the shots off at full distance. The day I shot the full distance for score it was really screwy windy at Ramseur. The range flags would stand straight out to the left, then to the right, then flop straight down, and repeat randomly. The .223's struggled, the .30 caliber guys did okay. I ignored the wind and shot for the center of the bullseye. I shot a 211. I never shot full distance on a day with no wind. One of these days I'd like to go down there and shoot some more but I might not be welcome. |
|
Quoted:
I attended one as a student, along with my Wife. It was advertised to a women's shooting group as appropriate for new shooters and IMNSHO that led to some issues. They used 2 ranges, one for the guys and one for the women (where they did spend much more time coaching them). My thoughts on it aren't likely to be very popular, but here goes! - For those that never shot "slinged up" before, I feel that they need to spend more time "training" the shooters how to transition safely w/o the barrel getting away from the shooter (and potentially sweeping other shooters)! This happened to me once and I learned to modify how I held the rifle (10/22) while moving/transitioning. Feedback from the women's group told me that this was a serious issue and some shooters didn't "get it". [In contrast, I'm RO at my gun club the day they run CMP matches. Those running the matches spend the 1st hour each match going over technique issues for the new CMP shooters and they run an excellent event w/o problems.] - It rained all weekend and we were literally lying in mud (even on shooting mats) most of the time. I'm too old for the military, so I don't really enjoy that, sorry. [Even 2 years later and after a number of washing/scrubbing sessions I can't get the embedded mud out of the shooting mats!]Sorry, this is their fault how? - They should have told us to bring large trash bags (some to sit on in the car, some to put the muddy gear in so car and trunk don't get crapped up). The mud in my car (and would have been embedded in the cloth seats as well) was incredible.No, a responsible adult should be able to figure this out all on their own. - The history was interesting, but some wrt a particular person I knew something about turned out to be wrong. Oh well. - Few shot anything but 10/22s, which is the ideal gun for this event. I shot ~1800 rds over both days, whereas my Wife shot ~800 rds. Would have been horrendously expensive with CF rifle ammo. - For those of us with graduated bifocals, coupled with the rain/humidity, it was a much greater challenge to shoot accurately than for the younger crowd that only wear glasses for range safety reasons. Only after this event did I find out about anti-fog sprays for eye glasses (coated plastic lenses, so one must be careful not to use some chemicals that could damage expensive Rx glasses). Some advice about this from those running the event (beforehand) would be very useful.Sorry, IMO, this is an individual responsibility issue. - Very little (too little IMNSHO) time was spent with the guys going over techniques in slinging the rifle (I wasn't using it properly and nobody pointed that out until day 2), how to hold the rifle in the different positions, how to avoid barrel swing, etc. All in all, I do think it a worthwhile event, but I don't think it is appropriate for those with little/no experience shooting slinged rifles! Background: As much as I've been shooting for >30 years, it is mostly pistol. Rifle shooting is never slinged up. I don't shoot competitively. Most of my rifle shooting in recent years has been AR15 (with Aimpoint) of MN M44 (irons) for fun at 50 yds. My Wife regularly shoots the 10/22 and .22 pistol, but from the bench or standing only. She never shot prone or sitting/kneeling before the Appleseed and had never used a sling. Sorry, about your legitimate gripes. So much is dependent on the shoot boss. None of the AS' I have attended had the issues you did. Primarily, because of the shoot boss. He has a get together with novice shooters prior to the start of class that eliminates most of your gripes that usually only takes 10 or 15 minutes. In regards to the colored responses, I am not trying to be snarky, just pointing out the individual has to take responsibility for somethings. If the organization is expected to give tips for every possible eventuality the little briefing packet would be bigger than the healthcare bill and pretty mcuh useless. |
|
Quoted:
I gotta ask since I see references to it in every thread about Appleseeds...why would I want to get a history lesson at a shooting class? As a historian and a rifle shooting enthusiast, I wouldn't normally look to either for input on the other. I see so many references to it that I have to wonder if it's another "this is the REAL history that liberal media doesn't want you to know", which I have very short patience for anyway, and sure as hell wouldn't pay money to hear during a marksmanship course. So what's the summary of historical topics, and what makes the Appleseed instructors qualified to speak to it? Anyone know? (this might not be the right thread to ask...) Simple. Appleseed is an American heritage/history organization with a pretty good BRM program. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Exactly. I shot irons on an AR-15 converted to .22lr and it was challenging for me at 25m. Those nailing it with a scope at the same distance made it all seem a little ridiculous. I mean really, a scope at 25m? Whatever, it was a fun day of shooting.
Quoted:
LenS makes good points about the good and the less than perfect. AS teaches basic marksmanship with a definite bent toward NRA highpower style sport shooting with a sling. Never could figure out why they are OK with a scope (scopes are actually highly encouraged), but resting the rifle in any way (including magazine, bipod, etc.) is forbidden. Doesn't make sense to me. AS is NOT for new shooters. A person should have several range sessions in before attending. AS does not typically teach real distance shooting. Everything is at 25 meters for 90%+ of their events. AS teaches some methods that are contrary to modern fighting rifle concepts. Understand it is labeled as "marksmanship for marksmanship's sake" more or less. AS founder, "Fred," is an... eclectic... character, to say the least. Same could be said for many in AS "management." The organization recently "fired" a good number of quality individuals who taught for free for them.
AS allows .22's. Shoot all day for $20 of ammo. That's a great deal. AS only costs around $70 or so. Many training classes are way more. Some AS classes have a portion that is shot at real distance. There is nothing better to teach shooting long range than actually shooting long range. IMC as taught by AS is the best way I've ever seen to teach how to adjust sights. Period. Scopes are used for several reasons- 1. They make the process considerably easier- your eye can only focus on ONE thing at a time. If you are shooting irons you are having to align THREE things. With a scope it's only TWO.....Which is easier? 2. Not everyone is 19. At some point peoples' eyesight changes, it varies from person to person but the fact is that as one ages it becomes increasingly difficult to shoot iron sights effectively. 3. Most long guns these days use some form of optic......even in combat. Even the die hard–– "We shoot real rifles with iron sights" U.S. Marines now issue ACOG's etc....many modern rifles are sold with NO iron sights at all. The people who condemn iron sights are foolish, they have been used (red dots for example) in combat for over 40 years at this point and are well proven. Should a weapon have backup irons? Sure, but they are NOT the most EFFECTIVE tool for the job. Every shooter should know how to use iron sights. Every rifle should ideally have them available. Their day however, is rapidly passing. Holy "missed the point" Batman! Cliff's notes: Scopes ARE good. That's why they are approved for infantry use (ACOGs), sniper use, and are used by a majority of hunters who use rifles. Irons are good, too. BUT - why not use other technology as well - bipods and other rests are really good ways to steady a rifle, and are almost universally useful (outside of specific competitive endeavors). Meanwhile, using a NRA highpower prone position with sling is useful for the range or HP competition, and that's about it. Not nearly as universal. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Exactly. I shot irons on an AR-15 converted to .22lr and it was challenging for me at 25m. Those nailing it with a scope at the same distance made it all seem a little ridiculous. I mean really, a scope at 25m? Whatever, it was a fun day of shooting.
Quoted:
LenS makes good points about the good and the less than perfect. AS teaches basic marksmanship with a definite bent toward NRA highpower style sport shooting with a sling. Never could figure out why they are OK with a scope (scopes are actually highly encouraged), but resting the rifle in any way (including magazine, bipod, etc.) is forbidden. Doesn't make sense to me. AS is NOT for new shooters. A person should have several range sessions in before attending. AS does not typically teach real distance shooting. Everything is at 25 meters for 90%+ of their events. AS teaches some methods that are contrary to modern fighting rifle concepts. Understand it is labeled as "marksmanship for marksmanship's sake" more or less. AS founder, "Fred," is an... eclectic... character, to say the least. Same could be said for many in AS "management." The organization recently "fired" a good number of quality individuals who taught for free for them.
AS allows .22's. Shoot all day for $20 of ammo. That's a great deal. AS only costs around $70 or so. Many training classes are way more. Some AS classes have a portion that is shot at real distance. There is nothing better to teach shooting long range than actually shooting long range. IMC as taught by AS is the best way I've ever seen to teach how to adjust sights. Period. Scopes are used for several reasons- 1. They make the process considerably easier- your eye can only focus on ONE thing at a time. If you are shooting irons you are having to align THREE things. With a scope it's only TWO.....Which is easier? 2. Not everyone is 19. At some point peoples' eyesight changes, it varies from person to person but the fact is that as one ages it becomes increasingly difficult to shoot iron sights effectively. 3. Most long guns these days use some form of optic......even in combat. Even the die hard–– "We shoot real rifles with iron sights" U.S. Marines now issue ACOG's etc....many modern rifles are sold with NO iron sights at all. The people who condemn iron sights are foolish, they have been used (red dots for example) in combat for over 40 years at this point and are well proven. Should a weapon have backup irons? Sure, but they are NOT the most EFFECTIVE tool for the job. Every shooter should know how to use iron sights. Every rifle should ideally have them available. Their day however, is rapidly passing. Holy "missed the point" Batman! Cliff's notes: Scopes ARE good. That's why they are approved for infantry use (ACOGs), sniper use, and are used by a majority of hunters who use rifles. Irons are good, too. BUT - why not use other technology as well - bipods and other rests are really good ways to steady a rifle, and are almost universally useful (outside of specific competitive endeavors). Meanwhile, using a NRA highpower prone position with sling is useful for the range or HP competition, and that's about it. Not nearly as universal. You all ready no the answer. Appleseed was started by guys big on hipower. That is also why you have the odd 2 and 8 reloads for the Garands. |
|
You all ready no the answer. Appleseed was started by guys big on hipower. That is also why you have the odd 2 and 8 reloads for the Garands.[/div] Nope. Appleseed was started by folks with a purpose that had little to do with High Power. The man wanted to get people's attention, wake them up, get them involved in politics and working to turn the country around. The reason for the 2 and 8 reloads is because M1 Garands don't hold 5 rounds in the clip, the hold 8. If they held 5 rounds in the clip, like the 03 Springfields and M1917's did no one would ever have had to come up with a 2 and 8 scheme to allow the M1 Garand to get through a 10 shot stage of fire that the bolt action rifles had been doing for years. The idea of the AQT is older than the Garand. The stages of fire are older than the Garand. Also, since even in real life you have to reload (now and then) its a good idea to have a reload in the stage of fire to prove to you that is can screw up your firing position and you need to learn & practice so you can quickly complete a reload and go right back to hitting targets at distance. If you go to an Appleseed you'll see the targets sort of look like people at a distance. What are 03's, M1917's, M1 Garands, M14's (M1A's), M16's (AR15's), etc. for? You have no idea how many times the targets have been debated due to fears someone/somewhere/sometime would object to the targets and the program because they were teaching people to shoot targets that look like other people. Appleseed (the people who teach and their mindset) has changed quite a bit since it started almost 10 years ago. Almost all of the early instructors have left the program. A lot of the second group of instructors have left the program. They work very hard to recruit new instructors but have no clue (or no cares) about how to retain instructors. If an instructor questions those above them it can be a quick trip to the wood shed either on the forum or through PMs on the forum. You can be "involuntarily" dropped from the program very quickly and those that support the guy asking questions risk similar treatment. I'm not saying its right or wrong. I'm just saying you won't get much sympathy if you make the leadership uncomfortable by questioning the directives from above. You can keep your mouth shut and keep going, you can push back and be banned (if you don't take the hints and stop pushing) or you can pack up and leave on your own. Makes no difference to the folks at the top. They just keep pushing the recruitment of more new instructors who haven't the history in the organization to question the latest directives. Internal politics aside its a really good way to learn a lot about shooting your rifle. Is it perfect? Nope. Is it better than anything else out there for learning fundamentals? I'd say so. I went to an Appleseed back in 2006. I went to an RBC in 2007. I was all excited about being an instructor. I attended a CMP Garand Master Instructor class at Camp Perry in the spring of 2007. What a disappointment that was (except for the 2 H&R M1 Garand barreled receivers and big can of Greek surplus I got at the North Store). I expected to get even more tips/info about teaching people to shoot rifles. What I got was a lot of advertising about how great the CMP program is, all the stuff clubs can buy from them and how to run through a one day class using their instructional materials. I got next to nothing about shooting a rifle better. The best advice I could give anyone wanting to learn to shoot their rifles better (even rimfire rifles) is to go to a Rifleman's Boot Camp. An Appleseed is just a start. But it's only 2 days (1.5 days if the range isn't allowed to operate on Sunday mornings) and going to multiple Appleseeds is usually just going over the same material multiple times. Going to an RBC is 6 days of shooting with a lot of additional information/methods/practice. I've tried to talk both my youngest son and my nephew into attending an RBC but no luck so far. |
|
Quoted:
You all ready no the answer. Appleseed was started by guys big on hipower. That is also why you have the odd 2 and 8 reloads for the Garands.[/div] Nope. Appleseed was started by folks with a purpose that had little to do with High Power. The man wanted to get people's attention, wake them up, get them involved in politics and working to turn the country around. And his shooting background was what? Oh ya, High power. And The guy who runs a lot of the riflemans bootcamps background is? Hipower. The reason for the 2 and 8 reloads is because M1 Garands don't hold 5 rounds in the clip, the hold 8. If they held 5 rounds in the clip, like the 03 Springfields and M1917's did no one would ever have had to come up with a 2 and 8 scheme to allow the M1 Garand to get through a 10 shot stage of fire that the bolt action rifles had been doing for years. The idea of the AQT is older than the Garand. The stages of fire are older than the Garand. And the 2 round clip was developed for the AQT? No it was developed for hi power competition. IIRC, The mil did not use 2 round clips for the quals Also, since even in real life you have to reload (now and then) its a good idea to have a reload in the stage of fire to prove to you that is can screw up your firing position and you need to learn & practice so you can quickly complete a reload and go right back to hitting targets at distance. If you go to an Appleseed you'll see the targets sort of look like people at a distance. What are 03's, M1917's, M1 Garands, M14's (M1A's), M16's (AR15's), etc. for? You have no idea how many times the targets have been debated due to fears someone/somewhere/sometime would object to the targets and the program because they were teaching people to shoot targets that look like other people. Appleseed (the people who teach and their mindset) has changed quite a bit since it started almost 10 years ago. Almost all of the early instructors have left the program. A lot of the second group of instructors have left the program. They work very hard to recruit new instructors but have no clue (or no cares) about how to retain instructors. If an instructor questions those above them it can be a quick trip to the wood shed either on the forum or through PMs on the forum. You can be "involuntarily" dropped from the program very quickly and those that support the guy asking questions risk similar treatment. Since I have been to multiple appleseeds, my girlfriend was an ITT and I used to go to the instructor meetings I might have an idea how often it gets discussed. I am also well aware of the politics as my girlfriend started one of those forum shit storms. It is also why I chose not to be an ITT, to not make waves as I don't have a problem throwing a BS flag. I also only attend specific AS' as you can figure out quick who is locked into the dogma and who is capable of teaching. I'm not saying its right or wrong. I'm just saying you won't get much sympathy if you make the leadership uncomfortable by questioning the directives from above. You can keep your mouth shut and keep going, you can push back and be banned (if you don't take the hints and stop pushing) or you can pack up and leave on your own. Makes no difference to the folks at the top. They just keep pushing the recruitment of more new instructors who haven't the history in the organization to question the latest directives. Internal politics aside its a really good way to learn a lot about shooting your rifle. Is it perfect? Nope. Is it better than anything else out there for learning fundamentals? I'd say so. I went to an Appleseed back in 2006. I went to an RBC in 2007. I was all excited about being an instructor. I attended a CMP Garand Master Instructor class at Camp Perry in the spring of 2007. What a disappointment that was (except for the 2 H&R M1 Garand barreled receivers and big can of Greek surplus I got at the North Store). I expected to get even more tips/info about teaching people to shoot rifles. What I got was a lot of advertising about how great the CMP program is, all the stuff clubs can buy from them and how to run through a one day class using their instructional materials. I got next to nothing about shooting a rifle better. The best advice I could give anyone wanting to learn to shoot their rifles better (even rimfire rifles) is to go to a Rifleman's Boot Camp. An Appleseed is just a start. But it's only 2 days (1.5 days if the range isn't allowed to operate on Sunday mornings) and going to multiple Appleseeds is usually just going over the same material multiple times. Going to an RBC is 6 days of shooting with a lot of additional information/methods/practice. I've tried to talk both my youngest son and my nephew into attending an RBC but no luck so far. I agree that Appleseeds are a good way to learn BRM. That is why I encourage folks to go. However, like everything else it has its down sides. One of those is the influence of some of the older members who came up through hi-power. Some of them, and I am talking about one of The guys who runs RBC's, is clueless on rifles with pistol grips has no desire to learn about them and is condescending if you try to explain anything about them. I learned this while having a recent RBC grad "coach" me about dragging wood by working my hand down the pistol grip so my trigger finger was at a 30-45 degree angle. When I attempted to explain the new guy couldn't get why I was printing one sub 2 moa 2 round group and one sub 2 moa 3 round group that gave me a total of a 5 moa group.. The RBC instructor was offended, condescending and very much had a I know everything attitude all while admitting he didn't know a thing about AR's. The condescending remarks about AR's, people who shoot them and that my issue was common (but the fault of the rifle not the craptastic coaching) was the icing on the cake. That is the heart of the down side of Appleseed. Many of the gripes can be traced to the CMP mafia who think the best gear for fighting off the blue helmeted invaders is the same shit they have been using on hipower ranges for decades. Some of the newer instructors, ITT and red hats are trying to change it, but as you pointed out that is not likely to happen any time soon. |
|
Sometimes "dragging wood" is bad. Only sometimes. I say that because at my first Appleseed one of the instructors was watching me and he commented that I was dragging wood but he couldn't figure out why it wasn't affecting my groups. I still (eventually) figured out how to place my hand so as not to drag wood on my M1A. ITs still one of the little things instructors are taught to look for and try to stop. When you're new at instructing most of what you know is what you were taught (how completely it was taught or how completely you understood it also affects how you teach it) and you try to pass that on to the new shooters. With experience the better instructors (better because they keep learning and modifying the way the teach) continue to pickup new information and think about what they learn and recognize what is important for an individual shooter vs. what is generally important to a group of shooters.
You're right that many people look down on the AR15. It may be only somewhat due to high power but its partly due to the reputation the rifle gained early on (you know the ones about reliability and stopping power). I used both in the Army and for 30 years I had no desire to own an AR15. A few years ago I found out some ARs can be really accurate. Between the fun of putting them together, the fun of shooting them and the ability to throw in a .22 conversion kit and have a whole lot more cheap fun I now have built more of them that I care to admit (not because I'm ashamed but because its no one's business exactly how many I've built for me or other family members - nothing like getting someone involved in shooting by helping them pick out/order the parts and then sitting down around a table to put them together). Anyway, everything changes, everyone reacts to change differently, not all changes are good, etc., etc. Have a good one. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Exactly. I shot irons on an AR-15 converted to .22lr and it was challenging for me at 25m. Those nailing it with a scope at the same distance made it all seem a little ridiculous. I mean really, a scope at 25m? Whatever, it was a fun day of shooting.
Quoted:
LenS makes good points about the good and the less than perfect. AS teaches basic marksmanship with a definite bent toward NRA highpower style sport shooting with a sling. Never could figure out why they are OK with a scope (scopes are actually highly encouraged), but resting the rifle in any way (including magazine, bipod, etc.) is forbidden. Doesn't make sense to me. AS is NOT for new shooters. A person should have several range sessions in before attending. AS does not typically teach real distance shooting. Everything is at 25 meters for 90%+ of their events. AS teaches some methods that are contrary to modern fighting rifle concepts. Understand it is labeled as "marksmanship for marksmanship's sake" more or less. AS founder, "Fred," is an... eclectic... character, to say the least. Same could be said for many in AS "management." The organization recently "fired" a good number of quality individuals who taught for free for them.
AS allows .22's. Shoot all day for $20 of ammo. That's a great deal. AS only costs around $70 or so. Many training classes are way more. Some AS classes have a portion that is shot at real distance. There is nothing better to teach shooting long range than actually shooting long range. IMC as taught by AS is the best way I've ever seen to teach how to adjust sights. Period. Scopes are used for several reasons- 1. They make the process considerably easier- your eye can only focus on ONE thing at a time. If you are shooting irons you are having to align THREE things. With a scope it's only TWO.....Which is easier? 2. Not everyone is 19. At some point peoples' eyesight changes, it varies from person to person but the fact is that as one ages it becomes increasingly difficult to shoot iron sights effectively. 3. Most long guns these days use some form of optic......even in combat. Even the die hard–– "We shoot real rifles with iron sights" U.S. Marines now issue ACOG's etc....many modern rifles are sold with NO iron sights at all. The people who condemn iron sights are foolish, they have been used (red dots for example) in combat for over 40 years at this point and are well proven. Should a weapon have backup irons? Sure, but they are NOT the most EFFECTIVE tool for the job. Every shooter should know how to use iron sights. Every rifle should ideally have them available. Their day however, is rapidly passing. Holy "missed the point" Batman! Cliff's notes: Scopes ARE good. That's why they are approved for infantry use (ACOGs), sniper use, and are used by a majority of hunters who use rifles. Irons are good, too. BUT - why not use other technology as well - bipods and other rests are really good ways to steady a rifle, and are almost universally useful (outside of specific competitive endeavors). Meanwhile, using a NRA highpower prone position with sling is useful for the range or HP competition, and that's about it. Not nearly as universal. You all ready know the answer. Appleseed was started by guys big on hipower. That is also why you have the odd 2 and 8 reloads for the Garands. Agreed. But they ("Fred" et al.) arbitrarily decided to change: a) the targets b) the scope rule c) the timing Why not go ahead and do away with the last vestige of the sport shooting part and allow rests/bipods? Oh, and the 2-8 thing could be done away with, too. The USMC dropped it in 2005 or so. |
| My youngest was 19 when I took him to one. He had a great time. In those days it was centerfires all day for 2 days. He took his FAL and I took my M1A. We talked all the way home from SW VA on Sunday during the trip home. I keep trying to talk my nephew into going to one but no luck so far. |
|
Quoted:
Why not go ahead and do away with the last vestige of the sport shooting part and allow rests/bipods? Oh, and the 2-8 thing could be done away with, too. The USMC dropped it in 2005 or so. Rests/bipods are a crutch when learning NPOA with a .22 at 25M. The point of the weekend is to learn. The point of the 2-8 is also to force a mag change which forces you to acquire your NPOA again. The last report I got, the USMC still teaches this same exact doctrine in boot camp although the writing is on the wall for change. Appleseed IS simple sport shooting. If you want something different then AS is not for you. I am speaking in the general sense since you have not ever been shy at stating that AS is not for you... 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Rests/bipods are a crutch Wouldnt a sling also be a crutch? A sling you can use in all positions to create a stable firing platform. A bipod is really only usable while prone (unless you have a very long legged one for sitting.) So, you would be using one technique to hold the rifle for standing and kneeling/sitting and a totally different technique for prone. Nothing wrong with that, but not every is going to have a bipod, so they aren't going to want/be able to teach all those different types of positions and techniques. So, sling only. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Rests/bipods are a crutch Wouldnt a sling also be a crutch? A sling you can use in all positions to create a stable firing platform. A bipod is really only usable while prone (unless you have a very long legged one for sitting.) So, you would be using one technique to hold the rifle for standing and kneeling/sitting and a totally different technique for prone. Nothing wrong with that, but not every is going to have a bipod, so they aren't going to want/be able to teach all those different types of positions and techniques. So, sling only. Verbal gymnastics. The sling is a crutch. A bipod is a crutch. A scope is a crutch. Any implement used as a shooting aid can be called a crutch. Fact is, if you want to teach marksmanship, a steady sight picture is needed, and the best way to do that is rest the rifle. PS - a bipod could be used in conjunction with a tree branch, rock, or any number of naturally occurring or man made things upon which a rifle could be rested from any position. Difference is, a bipod has almost unlimited practical use, whereas a sling is universally good for sport shooting and personal practice only, with extremely limited practical use in hunting or combat. The only advantage to be had by a sling is weight. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Rests/bipods are a crutch Wouldnt a sling also be a crutch? A sling you can use in all positions to create a stable firing platform. A bipod is really only usable while prone (unless you have a very long legged one for sitting.) So, you would be using one technique to hold the rifle for standing and kneeling/sitting and a totally different technique for prone. Nothing wrong with that, but not every is going to have a bipod, so they aren't going to want/be able to teach all those different types of positions and techniques. So, sling only. Verbal gymnastics. The sling is a crutch. A bipod is a crutch. A scope is a crutch. Any implement used as a shooting aid can be called a crutch. Fact is, if you want to teach marksmanship, a steady sight picture is needed, and the best way to do that is rest the rifle. .... A sling with no other support is near useless without NPOA. It is exponentially easier to shoot with a bipod or other physical rest in prone and clear a 4MOA target at 25M. If you master NPOA and the steady hold factors, you can easily shoot without a sling. It takes more than two 8 hour days to master this with no other experience though. A bipod is of little help in the sitting, off-hand and kneeling positions. A sling us useful in all of them. A sling can also be used in conjunction with a rest be it a tree or sand bags, etc. If you want to teach Marksmanship, you teach the steps to firing a shot, NPOA and steady hold factors. The NRA, CMP, USMC, Army Marksmanship Unit and the RWVA/Appleseed all agree on this....
I have never said nor do I teach that a sling is the end all. It is a simple tool if used properly can help most people while sport shooting. I give shooters the option of not using a sling if the use of a sling becomes a hindrance to their learning. I demonstrate that very little sling pressure is necessary for it to be an aid in stability. Not everyone is physically built the same and not everyone is 19 years old. Not everyone is a 90 lb stick. A sling is very useful in hunting as well as other sport shooting. Shooting sticks, bi-pods, mono-pods etc are also useful hunting aids but we leave that up to the student to continue learning. A sling is the least expensive aid in that group. You never tire of pointing out that Appleseed does not teach combat shooting but it was never designed to do so. |
A bipod on an AR might be okay. A bipod on a .30 caliber rifle is just a pogo stick(s).  Bi = 2 = sticks.
Anyway, I have had/used a bipod on my M1A for several years. I've never found a way to keep that sucker from bouncing. With a sling - if you've learned how to use it to build a good solid firing position, the rifle comes back down on the target after the recol. Not so with a bipod. Also, with a good sling supported firing position transitioning through multiple targets is quicker/easier than moving the bipod around. Try it some time. I have. Whether the targets are spaced left/right or closer/farther from each other its easier to use the sling. Having said the above, I have bipods on several rifles. But not the ones I grab when I go out the back door. Just on the ones I would take varmint hunting or to the range for fun. edited to add - I'm talking rapid fire, 16 shots or more in a minute, targets at varying distances with as much as 20 yards from one to another in lateral displacement (left to right). |
|
Quoted:
A bipod on an AR might be okay. A bipod on a .30 caliber rifle is just a pogo stick(s). Bi = 2 = sticks.
Anyway, I have had/used a bipod on my M1A for several years. I've never found a way to keep that sucker from bouncing. With a sling - if you've learned how to use it to build a good solid firing position, the rifle comes back down on the target after the recol. Not so with a bipod. Also, with a good sling supported firing position transitioning through multiple targets is quicker/easier than moving the bipod around. Try it some time. I have. Whether the targets are spaced left/right or closer/farther from each other its easier to use the sling. Having said the above, I have bipods on several rifles. But not the ones I grab when I go out the back door. Just on the ones I would take varmint hunting or to the range for fun. edited to add - I'm talking rapid fire, 16 shots or more in a minute, targets at varying distances with as much as 20 yards from one to another in lateral displacement (left to right). While you bring up some good points, consider this: (note - I am going to largely agree that a bipod will cause the rifle to jump, and the sling will not) Provided you are engaging a target far enough away to be able to use prone. There will be, generally speaking, one of two situations: a) the target must be engaged rapidly b) no need to engage rapidly. A part of that will depend on distance. Engaging a target rapidly at 500+ yards is not going to be easy, regardless of circumstance. A closer target requiring rapid engagement can be accurately fired upon using no support at all - no sling, no bipod, just the shooter. Depending on shooter, this can be anywhere from 100-300 yards. Maybe even more. In this situation, bounce would not be a factor, as neither a bipod nor a sling could be deployed. If there is no need to engage rapidly, then the shooter may take his time and place a more accurate shot, so bounce would be irrelevant. |
|
I finally attended my first Appleseed this weekend. I am not a bad shot by any means but since my wife and I started having kids I had stopped shooting DCM/CMP so my skills are a bit rusty. It's been about 15-years since I last shot a CMP match and my oldest son is turning 12 and I was looking for a place I can take him to teach him the basics of marksmanship. I decided before I bring my kids I wanted to at least do one day to make sure it was what I was expecting and that I was comfortable bringing my kids to it.
In preparing to go to the Appleseed event I found myself without a gun that was really what I wanted to shoot. One of my 10/22s has an integral suppressor on it, a second was a youth gun with Ruger factory sights, and the third was a stock 10/22 with a scope mounted. I decided instead of modifying one of the three 10/22s I had that I wanted to build a purpose built liberty training rifle so I went to Dicks Sporting Goods and bought a brand new 10/22 carbine ($239). I also ordered one of the M1 Carbine Stock kits (this was just for looks - $90), a 1-inch M1907 sling ($28), a set of Tech TRS100 Sights ($59) and a set of Uncle Mikes QD Sling mounts with the forward mount that mounts to a Ruger 10/22 barrel band. So, the complete setup was about $400. To prepare I mounted the Tech Sights and the sling. I had to drill out the hole in the 10/22 barrel band mount so that it would fit the larger bolt of the M1 Carbine barrel band. With that done, the QD forward stud hangs below the stock so I can use the sling better. That worked fine but I do need to get a couple spacers to hold that forward sling stud steady as right now it moves side to side on the bolt that holds the band together. It didn't affect shooting or using the sling but it will strip those threads and it looks sloppy the way it is. I then added the stock stud and mounted the M1907 sling and adjusted the sling to fit me. I also collected half a dozen mags to take to the Appleseed shoot. Now, you will note I didn't say anything about shooting this gun before I went to the Appleseed shoot. I hate to admit it but I didn't belong to what I considered a safe club until this past week so I didn't have a place or opportunity to shoot before the class. I confirmed with the Appleseed Instructor running the show (thanks George) that I would be able to zero it at the event and he said I would be fine. I learned a few lessons during the shoot. First, Appleseed involves a lot more shooting then a CMP event. I quickly learned that my failure to break in my leather 1907 sling was a mistake and I ended up borrowing a M1 Cotton Sling to get through the day. It was just taking too much time and effort to get the sling on and off with the keepers so darned tight. I still prefer the leather 1907 sling but the cotton sling was much quicker to put on and take off and with Appleseed you have to do this a LOT so the Cotton USGI sling was nice. I will work on breaking in my M1907 sling to use but I will bring a M1 sling with me as a backup and my kids will use the M1 sling at Appleseed shoots. The second thing I didn't do before the event was install an automatic bolt release and this caused me some time in every mag change. I also had issues as my 10/22 mags were not dropping free because the M1 Carbine stock is tight on the mags. This made it so that every mag change required me to fully break position and use my trigger finger to shove the mag down from the action to get the mag to drop out of the gun. Either of these could have been predicted if only I had taken the time too shoot the gun before going to the shoot  There was an Instructor at the course that swapped my bolt release for an automatic bolt release (thanks Frank) and that was a huge time saver and allowed me a little more time to shoot. Finally I had factory a 10-rd Ruger 10/22 mag fail on me and that was fixed on site but spare mags were smart even with the robust factory 10-rd 10/22 mags.
I never did make rifleman, my scores kept getting better 193, 196, 206, and 207 were my last four but I never hit the 210 needed to earn my patch. I need to hit the range with this LTR and actually practice with it before I try again next month. I am resolved I will get my patch next time. I want to earn this with Iron sights but I may pack along my scoped 10/22 as a backup gun or perhaps even my DCM/CMP AR-15 in 223 in case I get to the afternoon and I have still not managed to nail that bottom row better. Here is my modest Liberty Training rifle, it's really nothing fancy but this Appleseed event was a lot of fun and I look forward to doing it with my son next month! 
Thank You RWVA and Appleseed! |