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AR15.COM
11/21/2007 5:17:28 PM EDT
anyone want to give me some free low light tips/lessons
11/21/2007 10:06:08 PM EDT
[#1]
Dont use too much light
DOnt use too little light
Have more than one light
11/22/2007 7:01:22 AM EDT
[#2]
1. In your home, turn on the lights as opposed to searching with a hand held or weapon mounted light.

2. Make sure you have practiced manipulating your firearm (gun handling and IAD) "eyes off" during the daytime so you don't default to "looking" at your firearm which you may not be able to see.

3. Practice a tactile press check as part of your gun handling repetoire.

4. Grip and body index can get hits on target at distances of 3 to 5 yards (this is not point shooting).

5. Practice shooting from retention.

There are allot of issues relating to fighting at night or in the dark that have nothing to do with white light.
11/22/2007 5:06:45 PM EDT
[#3]
seriously THANKS what advice can I get on encounters at night outside on MY property,when dealing with possiable armed encounters(its happend recently more than once)
11/22/2007 5:55:41 PM EDT
[#4]

Quoted:
seriously THANKS
next question if you don`t mind?
what advice can I get on encounters at night outside on MY property,when dealing with possiable armed encounters(its happend recently more than once)


Light and move
11/22/2007 6:19:44 PM EDT
[#5]
If you do turn on your lights in the house make sure you are not silhouetted by it if possible
11/22/2007 11:59:55 PM EDT
[#6]
A book on "Night Movements" by the Japanese military has been like the Art of War for night time.

I do not believe that it has a current publisher so you can download it off the internet, I think it was published in like 1912-1919, not sure, I know its outdated, but the principles still very much apply.
.
Check it out.
11/23/2007 12:19:42 AM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:
A book on "Night Movements" by the Japanese military has been like the Art of War for night time.

I do not believe that it has a current publisher so you can download it off the internet, I think it was published in like 1912-1919, not sure, I know its outdated, but the principles still very much apply.
.
Check it out.


linky down loadable in PDF too
11/23/2007 1:50:12 PM EDT
[#8]
thanks guys
12/1/2007 6:42:16 AM EDT
[#9]
One light is none, two lights are one.

Practice the different techniques harris, chapman, etc. Find the one that works best for you.

Train on doing reloads and malfunction drills with a flashlight. What are you going to do with it?

As others have said, light and move. Use cover, hold the light away from you when lighting up or searching area. Bring the light in close for contact and close searching.
12/11/2007 6:57:00 AM EDT
[#10]
height=8
Quoted:
Train on doing reloads and malfunction drills with a flashlight. What are you going to do with it?


+1

Everything you practice in daylight, you need to practice in low light/no light. Doing those drills initially identified, for me, the need for a weapon mounted light. Reloads and malfunction drills are very difficult with a flashlight in one hand. With a weapon mounted light, nothing changes. Simplicity and consistency are good things.

If you do not have a weapon mounted light, though, you have two possible acceptable options when it comes to malfunctions and relaods.

1. Retain the light in your hand and execute the malfunction and reload drills as you do your one handed drills. This keeps things consistent at least and prevents losing your light.

2. Stow the light and execute the drills as normal. While this ensures simple, consistent, and fast execution of the drills themselves, stowing the light can be a big problem under stress. You stand a good chance of losing the light or being slowed way down by fumbling with getting it stowed in a pocket or its case. A lanyard can be a big help here.

What you DO NOT want to do is try to do your normal drills while still holding the light in your hand. This about guarantees that you will drop something or screw something up.

Try these methods and then try them with a weapon mounted light. It should clear things up for you.
12/11/2007 7:08:26 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Train on doing reloads and malfunction drills with a flashlight. What are you going to do with it?


+1

Everything you practice in daylight, you need to practice in low light/no light. Doing those drills initially identified, for me, the need for a weapon mounted light. Reloads and malfunction drills are very difficult with a flashlight in one hand. With a weapon mounted light, nothing changes. Simplicity and consistency are good things.

If you do not have a weapon mounted light, though, you have two possible acceptable options when it comes to malfunctions and relaods.

1. Retain the light in your hand and execute the malfunction and reload drills as you do your one handed drills. This keeps things consistent at least and prevents losing your light.

2. Stow the light and execute the drills as normal. While this ensures simple, consistent, and fast execution of the drills themselves, stowing the light can be a big problem under stress. You stand a good chance of losing the light or being slowed way down by fumbling with getting it stowed in a pocket or its case. A lanyard can be a big help here.

What you DO NOT want to do is try to do your normal drills while still holding the light in your hand. This about guarantees that you will drop something or screw something up.

Try these methods and then try them with a weapon mounted light. It should clear things up for you.


Just an add on, a weapon mounted light does not replace carrying handheld flashlight.
12/11/2007 1:24:49 PM EDT
[#12]
100% correct. I should have mentioned that. Just as a handheld light does not replace a weapon mounted light, a weapon mounted light does not replace a hand held light. Two different jobs.

12/11/2007 5:32:39 PM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:
1. In your home, turn on the lights as opposed to searching with a hand held or weapon mounted light.

2. Make sure you have practiced manipulating your firearm (gun handling and IAD) "eyes off" during the daytime so you don't default to "looking" at your firearm which you may not be able to see.

3. Practice a tactile press check as part of your gun handling repetoire.

4. Grip and body index can get hits on target at distances of 3 to 5 yards (this is not point shooting).

5. Practice shooting from retention.

There are allot of issues relating to fighting at night or in the dark that have nothing to do with white light.


Tony,

In every LEO Instructor Development course I have attended, "Button, Not Switch" has always been drilled into our heads. If you hit the "Switch" you are giving up the tactical advantage of either "Light, Shoot, Move" or "Move, Light, Shoot." Also, it is not good tactical sense to use your weapon mounted light as a primary illumination source.

Personally, I agree with the fact that hitting the switch is a bad idea. Everything else you mentioned makes good sense.

Be Safe.

Joe  
12/14/2007 12:35:06 PM EDT
[#14]
I disagree with the "turn on all the lights idea". If there is some one in your home you just told them where you are when that light comes on. The best thing to do is seek cover and ambush the Bad guy: then you have the element of suprise. There may be a time when you must move through your home to get to a family member. If so you should be able to move through your home in complete darkness. This is where you and all family members should have run through an emergency plan in advance. Then you use a bright light to blind and Identify the intruder.  It may not be a bad guy  and bullets can't be recalled. There are cases of mistaken identity when someone goes after a noise or unidentified person. The blinding light can change the mind of bad guys and bad dogs.
12/14/2007 5:47:52 PM EDT
[#15]

Quoted:
I disagree with the "turn on all the lights idea". If there is some one in your home you just told them where you are when that light comes on. The best thing to do is seek cover and ambush the Bad guy: then you have the element of suprise. There may be a time when you must move through your home to get to a family member. If so you should be able to move through your home in complete darkness. This is where you and all family members should have run through an emergency plan in advance. Then you use a bright light to blind and Identify the intruder.  It may not be a bad guy  and bullets can't be recalled. There are cases of mistaken identity when someone goes after a noise or unidentified person. The blinding light can change the mind of bad guys and bad dogs.


That's why the term "Button, Not Switch" is a good way to remember not to turn the ambient lights on.
12/14/2007 8:15:33 PM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
1. In your home, turn on the lights as opposed to searching with a hand held or weapon mounted light.

2. Make sure you have practiced manipulating your firearm (gun handling and IAD) "eyes off" during the daytime so you don't default to "looking" at your firearm which you may not be able to see.

3. Practice a tactile press check as part of your gun handling repetoire.

4. Grip and body index can get hits on target at distances of 3 to 5 yards (this is not point shooting).

5. Practice shooting from retention.

There are allot of issues relating to fighting at night or in the dark that have nothing to do with white light.


Tony,

In every LEO Instructor Development course I have attended, "Button, Not Switch" has always been drilled into our heads. If you hit the "Switch" you are giving up the tactical advantage of either "Light, Shoot, Move" or "Move, Light, Shoot." Also, it is not good tactical sense to use your weapon mounted light as a primary illumination source.

Personally, I agree with the fact that hitting the switch is a bad idea. Everything else you mentioned makes good sense.

Be Safe.

Joe  


I assumed, and perhaps I shouldn't have, that the OP was not LE or .mil (e.g. he is a civilian). It was in that context that I replied.

How many low light training opportunities are available to civilians? It is directly proportional to the number of gun clubs that allow shooting at night so that one may train and then practice low light skills. Very few.

Yes you can practice dry in your home but I contend that firing and manipulating a "live" weapon to some extent is required in order to actually be able to "fight" at night and in the dark. I have serious reservations that the average gun owning home owner has achieved an adequate level of night fighting skills to engage a threat in darkness.

From that PoV I still maintain turning on the lights is a viable option and should not be dismissed out of hand.
12/16/2007 10:11:18 PM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
1. In your home, turn on the lights as opposed to searching with a hand held or weapon mounted light.

2. Make sure you have practiced manipulating your firearm (gun handling and IAD) "eyes off" during the daytime so you don't default to "looking" at your firearm which you may not be able to see.

3. Practice a tactile press check as part of your gun handling repetoire.

4. Grip and body index can get hits on target at distances of 3 to 5 yards (this is not point shooting).

5. Practice shooting from retention.

There are allot of issues relating to fighting at night or in the dark that have nothing to do with white light.


Tony,

In every LEO Instructor Development course I have attended, "Button, Not Switch" has always been drilled into our heads. If you hit the "Switch" you are giving up the tactical advantage of either "Light, Shoot, Move" or "Move, Light, Shoot." Also, it is not good tactical sense to use your weapon mounted light as a primary illumination source.

Personally, I agree with the fact that hitting the switch is a bad idea. Everything else you mentioned makes good sense.

Be Safe.

Joe  


I assumed, and perhaps I shouldn't have, that the OP was not LE or .mil (e.g. he is a civilian). It was in that context that I replied.

How many low light training opportunities are available to civilians? It is directly proportional to the number of gun clubs that allow shooting at night so that one may train and then practice low light skills. Very few.

Yes you can practice dry in your home but I contend that firing and manipulating a "live" weapon to some extent is required in order to actually be able to "fight" at night and in the dark. I have serious reservations that the average gun owning home owner has achieved an adequate level of night fighting skills to engage a threat in darkness.

From that PoV I still maintain turning on the lights is a viable option and should not be dismissed out of hand.


Tony,

With a large percentage (more often than not) of violent attacks happening in low-light or total darkness, it would be foolish for civilians not to seek out that type of training to add to their training profile (tool box).

I provide low-light level training in several of my courses. As a matter of fact I just returned home from conducting two day "Aversive Handgun" course and it contained a low-light level course of instruction.

If the average civilian owns and plans on using a firearm for self-defense whether inside or outside the home (or both), and they do not seek out low-light level training they are nothing more than a liability to themselves, their family, and the public at large.

There are plenty of training opportunities conducted around the CONUS by reputable training organizations (including mine) that civilians can take advantage of.

Please feel free to IM me if you would like more info on this type of training.

Be Safe.

Joe
12/17/2007 6:18:51 AM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
1. In your home, turn on the lights as opposed to searching with a hand held or weapon mounted light.

2. Make sure you have practiced manipulating your firearm (gun handling and IAD) "eyes off" during the daytime so you don't default to "looking" at your firearm which you may not be able to see.

3. Practice a tactile press check as part of your gun handling repetoire.

4. Grip and body index can get hits on target at distances of 3 to 5 yards (this is not point shooting).

5. Practice shooting from retention.

There are allot of issues relating to fighting at night or in the dark that have nothing to do with white light.


Tony,

In every LEO Instructor Development course I have attended, "Button, Not Switch" has always been drilled into our heads. If you hit the "Switch" you are giving up the tactical advantage of either "Light, Shoot, Move" or "Move, Light, Shoot." Also, it is not good tactical sense to use your weapon mounted light as a primary illumination source.

Personally, I agree with the fact that hitting the switch is a bad idea. Everything else you mentioned makes good sense.

Be Safe.

Joe  


I assumed, and perhaps I shouldn't have, that the OP was not LE or .mil (e.g. he is a civilian). It was in that context that I replied.

How many low light training opportunities are available to civilians? It is directly proportional to the number of gun clubs that allow shooting at night so that one may train and then practice low light skills. Very few.

Yes you can practice dry in your home but I contend that firing and manipulating a "live" weapon to some extent is required in order to actually be able to "fight" at night and in the dark. I have serious reservations that the average gun owning home owner has achieved an adequate level of night fighting skills to engage a threat in darkness.

From that PoV I still maintain turning on the lights is a viable option and should not be dismissed out of hand.


Tony,

With a large percentage (more often than not) of violent attacks happening in low-light or total darkness, it would be foolish for civilians not to seek out that type of training to add to their training profile (tool box).

I provide low-light level training in several of my courses. As a matter of fact I just returned home from conducting two day "Aversive Handgun" course and it contained a low-light level course of instruction.

If the average civilian owns and plans on using a firearm for self-defense whether inside or outside the home (or both), and they do not seek out low-light level training they are nothing more than a liability to themselves, their family, and the public at large.

There are plenty of training opportunities conducted around the CONUS by reputable training organizations (including mine) that civilians can take advantage of.

Please feel free to IM me if you would like more info on this type of training.

Be Safe.

Joe


Joe,

My point was that many facilities do not permit low light training for one reason or another be it liability, just plain ignorance or in one club I belong to, a township ordinance prohibiting shooting after 9pm. Then you have the gun clubs that don't allow rapid fire or even presenting from a holster.

I agree with you that people should obtain as much training as they can afford but it serves little purpose if one can't engage in sustainment practice which is why I mentioned disciplining oneself to manipulate "eyes off" during daylight practice sessions.

So John Q. Public travels and enrolls in one of your low light courses. Then he goes home  to his gun club that prohibits low light shooting. How is he supposed to refine the low light skills he learned from you? And again, some things can be done "dry" but eventually live fire is needed to "validate" the skills.

It's easy to say we should attend low light classes else we're just a liability and while it is certainly within the realm of possibilities to "attend" such training, it always isn't possible for most people to "maintain" those skills for reasons beyond their control.

Taking into account most clubs don't permit shooting after sunset, I simply tried to offer some "food for thought" on what "can" be done to offset the lack of opportunity to practice in low light conditions.

From that PoV I still maintain that for most people, turning on the lights is a viable option.
12/17/2007 5:47:33 PM EDT
[#19]
Tony,

You have a very good point regarding training. A person can get the best training in the world and if that person doesn't have a place to train in order to keep those skills up, their training has been nothing more than one time experience. It is like a person purchasing the best scuba equipment, getting the best scuba instruction, and then having no place to scuba dive.

In Las Vegas, I conduct all of my training outdoors and I encourage my students to join one of the two outdoor shooting clubs. At least at these clubs my students can have the freedom to continue training and utilizing the life saving skills they have learned in my courses.

As an instructor I feel for those who don't have a viable place to train and I think it is unfortunate that some ranges will not allow people to practice the true skills and tactics that are conducive to staying alive in a gunfight/violent confrontation.

With that said, I still believe that it is a tactical disadvantage to turn on residential/business lights when dealing with adversaries in low-light environments.

Be Safe.

Joe
1/4/2008 8:40:12 PM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:
anyone want to give me some free low light tips/lessons


The best thing I can tell you is to seek out professional training that covers low light. All the internet posts in the world won't do you as much good as 8 hours of actual low light training with a competent instructor.

The points that NCPatrolAR mentioned are really the key points of low light stuff.....the snag is you won't know what is "too much" or "too little" unless you get some firsthand experience.

A good rule of thumb is that you need less light than you think you do.

Some general tips:

1. Light is a target indicator. When you turn one on in the dark you are inviting incoming rounds. Thus it would be wise to learn how to deploy a light with proper movement.

2. One is none, and two is one. You need to have more than one light on you. Weapon lights are great but not ideal in all situations. A handheld light is a must as a backup.

3. Anyone who tells you that a light will "blind" an opponent is a yutz. Stop listening to them at that point and forget anything they told you because they have no clue what they are talking about.

4. Practice with your low light equipment. Using it doesn't come naturally and in a stressful situation you're going to be VERY busy....thus it would be wise to train to the point where you can do something like index a handheld light's hotspot where your sights are aimed until it is second nature. You'd be amazed how many people mess that up.

Same thing applies to reloads, malfunction clearance, etc.

5. Night sights. You need them. Trust me....at least your front sight needs to glow.

6. Never carry a light with a lanyard on it on the same side as your handgun. It's asking for an AD.

7. Seriously, seek out low light training. A number of good training outfits offer some decent LL training. The best course I've seen is the Vickers/Hackathorn low light course.
1/4/2008 8:42:10 PM EDT
[#21]

Quoted:
From that PoV I still maintain turning on the lights is a viable option and should not be dismissed out of hand.


It is indeed a viable option...in certain circumstances. Recognizing those circumstances is the hard part.