Originally Posted By glenn_r: e-mail sent.

testing...

email sent.

Originally Posted By SGB: Anything happening with the latest batch of applicants?

I sent an original e-mail on 20September2007, and a follow-up e-mail on 19November2007, and I haven't heard anything back yet.

Be Safe.

Joe

Same here. One of the mods (Striker) said they are a little behind in processing the icons. I'm already advertising in HTF so as long as I don't get banned I don't really care

Originally Posted By DKing: Same here. One of the mods (Striker) said they are a little behind in processing the icons. I'm already advertising in HTF so as long as I don't get banned I don't really care

Admin has been pretty good about posting upcoming courses in HTF's. What they frown upon is people posting and signing people up and never giving back in the way of being there to answer intructional/CCW/training related questions.

I have always contributed to the forum by helping those who have and need questions answered.

Be Safe.

Joe

Goatboy and anyone else it may concern,
 Can you gentleman outline the criteria for awarding instructor cred to board members. The industry in general is rife with barely qualified "instructors" who think that a dozen classes from gunsite/thunderranch etc makes them an authority. I understand that training value is relative to the point of view of the trainee. A Podunk County Sherrif's Dept SWAT cop probably doesnt have a thing to teach me but to a new gunowner and CCW recipient he could be a wealth of knowledge. Personally I am setting my expectations kinda high due to the "professional" title of the program.

I would hate to see this great idea get turned into nothing more than a status symbol for the advanced hobbyists who are training class addicts but have no actual experience.

Originally Posted By DvlDog: Goatboy and anyone else it may concern,  Can you gentleman outline the criteria for awarding instructor cred to board members. The industry in general is rife with barely qualified "instructors" who think that a dozen classes from gunsite/thunderranch etc makes them an authority. I understand that training value is relative to the point of view of the trainee. A Podunk County Sherrif's Dept SWAT cop probably doesnt have a thing to teach me but to a new gunowner and CCW recipient he could be a wealth of knowledge. Personally I am setting my expectations kinda high due to the "professional" title of the program. I would hate to see this great idea get turned into nothing more than a status symbol for the advanced hobbyists who are training class addicts but have no actual experience.

Very Good Point DvlDog,

I agree that there a lot of posers out there and I can't speak for anyone else, but I can assure you that I have the background and credentials to qualify for this venture on ARFcom.

Be Safe.


Joseph Nizzari
Director of Training Operations
Line of Fire, LLC
Professional Firearms Training Group
CCW/Handgun Training Division
Las Vegas, Nevada
(702) 242-8288 (o)
(702) 324-3720 (c) 24/7
E-mail: [email protected]
www.lineoffirellc.com

Originally Posted By GoatBoy: We slowed up new additions and haven't had a chance to reply to everyone regarding that. The goal has been to sign up enough instructors to get a good number of course listings in the forums. At that time we wanted to ensure we promoted more users to the area.

Thanks for the update GB,

Be Safe.

Joe

Originally Posted By DvlDog: Goatboy and anyone else it may concern,  Can you gentleman outline the criteria for awarding instructor cred to board members. The industry in general is rife with barely qualified "instructors" who think that a dozen classes from gunsite/thunderranch etc makes them an authority. I understand that training value is relative to the point of view of the trainee. A Podunk County Sherrif's Dept SWAT cop probably doesnt have a thing to teach me but to a new gunowner and CCW recipient he could be a wealth of knowledge. Personally I am setting my expectations kinda high due to the "professional" title of the program. I would hate to see this great idea get turned into nothing more than a status symbol for the advanced hobbyists who are training class addicts but have no actual experience.

We in the Pennsylvania hometown forum had a situation where an NRA Training Counselor was admonished against the background of this program for posting NRA courses.

So it certainly begs the question again.   What are the criteria?  This question was asked, but not answered.

Exactly who makes the judgment, and what are their qualifications to do so?

To what length is information submitted actually verified?

Please know I'm not opposed to the concept of vetting instructors, but based on what I'm hearing, there's no transparency in the process.  An icon appears next to a moniker based on a review of unseen qualifications by an unknown individual(s), based on an email, which includes either verified/unverified information. (?)

The above poster is right.  There's a difference between a real improvement, and a parliamentary one.

--Fargo007

Ar15.com lawyers have any fears of accepted liability in "approving" instructors?

Not really.

So it certainly begs the question again. What are the criteria? This question was asked, but not answered. Exactly who makes the judgment, and what are their qualifications to do so? To what length is information submitted actually verified?

Figured I'd check to see if the thread was still working.

 Bueller?  Anyone?

--Fargo007

Originally Posted By DvlDog: Goatboy and anyone else it may concern,  Can you gentleman outline the criteria for awarding instructor cred to board members. The industry in general is rife with barely qualified "instructors" who think that a dozen classes from gunsite/thunderranch etc makes them an authority. I understand that training value is relative to the point of view of the trainee. A Podunk County Sherrif's Dept SWAT cop probably doesnt have a thing to teach me but to a new gunowner and CCW recipient he could be a wealth of knowledge. Personally I am setting my expectations kinda high due to the "professional" title of the program. I would hate to see this great idea get turned into nothing more than a status symbol for the advanced hobbyists who are training class addicts but have no actual experience.

Experience doing what?  Teaching?  Doing dynamic entries?  Martial arts experience?  Writing parking tickets?  Assaulting beaches?

The point of instructing is to impart information and related skills.  One who is good at that is a good instructor.  One who can hump the hills of Afhanastan with 80 lbs of gear and survive on his own for weeks, but who cannot teach, is not a good instructor.

The idea that one who has taken a dozen Gunstight courses leaves a fellow with nothing to contribute is simply false, unless the fellow cannot impart what he learned.  It does make them an "authority" on some things, depending upon how one defines "authority."

I did an article on this topic about a year ago: SWAT, April 2006, if I recall correctly.  The article was very well recieved by many (including, thank God, some I did not know before I published and for whom I have great respect.)  It met with virulent criticism by a number of individuals who base the marketing of their products and services upon upon what they used to do or, more accuartely, how they currently represent what they used to do.

I won't repeat the whole thing here, but the central point was that to the extent prior job experience can be a predictor whether an instructor is competent, that experience must be relevant to the particular skills and skill level of the students he or she undertakes to teach.  I also note that "training pedigree" (meaning where the individual in question trained) is also something a prospective student should check.  A dozen courses at Gunsite, particularly courses prior to 2000, ain't a bad place to start.

In 2005 and 2006, the F.I.R.E. Institute did a lot of work trying to work up a set of crieteria one might use to predict who will be a good instructor and who will be not-so-good.  We had significant help in that regard from some trainers who were in the business long before there was a "training industry" (the late Col. Cooper among them).  It is very, very difficult, and remains a work in progress.

My recommendation is that the moderators here simply allow instructors to post whatever background any particular trainer feels is relevant about themselves, and make it clear the list moderators neither evaluate the quality of that trainer's experience or verify the accuracy of the information posted.  That way every person can make his own decision whether to credit the opinion of any particular instructor, and the moderators of this list are not in the middle.

Originally Posted By SGB: Not even an email acknowledgment of having received my application.

Same here after two e-mails.

Test...

ETA: GTG!

Thanks for the opportunity.

Be Safe.

Joe

Originally Posted By GoatBoy: I'm transitioning some of this program to the staff and then will address any emails which have come in. I posted here that things were on hold for a bit, while 2008 rolled around. The goal this year will be to ensure class schedules are being posted and that we present these classes to the community to encourage people to sign up and get involved. I apologize for the silence on my part in regards to emails.

NP GB,

I got everything squared away with Ed Sr.

I am happy to be a part of the Professional Exchange Program. Please feel free to contact me if there is anything I can do for you here from Nevada.

Be Safe.


Joseph (Joe) Nizzari
Director of Training Operations
Line of Fire, LLC
Professional Firearms Training Group
Small Arms Training Division
Las Vegas, Nevada
(702) 242-8288 (b)
(702) 324-3720 (c) 24/7
E-mail: [email protected]
www.lineoffirellc.com

We Georgians are patiently waiting for ya. No rush

Thank you Striker!

Originally Posted By OEF_VET: E-mail sent.

It's a great program.

Is there anywhere in the Training section where an instructors credentials are actually posted for all to see?  

Status updates???

Thanks

V
OUT

Originally Posted By Scot45: Is there anywhere in the Training section where an instructors credentials are actually posted for all to see?

I will send mine out for anybody to see, just IM me.

Sean

Have the powers that be done anything with this since January?

I emailed my request some weeks ago and haven't heard proverbial 'boo'.

Thanks guys.

John

Originally Posted By Scot45: Is there anywhere in the Training section where an instructors credentials are actually posted for all to see?

This would likely be problematic and cumbersome.

Some programs (like mine), limit who has access to our instructors and clients, for security purposes. Only serious, formal inquiries about our instructors and clients are entertained.

Putting info about clients and instructors on the public block just may not be safe.

Yes some do. That's a choice on the part of the individual instructors and client.
In our case we keep a que of trainers available and depending on the course being taught and the instructor's availability, names might change.

Consequently in some circumstances it would also be an upkeep/ maintainence issue here at AR15 since instructors may come and go from schools or agencies.

Keeping track of that could get bogged down and subsequently misrepresent.  

The format I perceive represented here is a good one. Simple and focused on providing a recognized list of companies that the visitors and members can look at and link to for their own research.

It's a starting block for you not a definitive resource.

Sent my application in a few weeks ago and haven't heard anything yet.  I'm still patiently waiting.  Sounds a like a great program that I want to contribute to!

submitted

I want to learn more. I am completely inept when it comes to the science and abilities behind my rifle. I will contact the link.
Travis

test

ETA...I guess I should don the flame suit now that the badge is up there

Thanks Striker

Test again after relogging...

I've never seen the LE and MIL icons...
pretty cool

What's up with those?  Im leo and prior service.  Also Team leader and currently teaching firearms at FLETC.  Oh well, I guess it pays to be patient.  

Tag for pending certs.

Originally Posted By GoatBoy: www.ar15.com/images/professionalProgram.gif The Professional Exchange program represents our growing effort to encourage all forms of firearm training for users in the AR15.Com community. Having the tools to defend yourself represents only part of what truly makes you secure. Having the training to put that tool to work with confidence could be the difference maker in many situations. With this in mind, the idea for the Professional Exchange was born. <snip> Once accepted into the program, your user account will be flagged as an instructor. The benefits are as follows: - A small icon to quickly identify you as an instructor with every post you make. - The ability to post new threads in our Tactical Courses forum for your classes. - The ability to post new threads in our Training Facilities forum. - The ability to have your information shared in a hometown resource collection for your area. (Direct exposure to local shooters.) - Industry Partners may request a forum established in the Training Community to further showcase their offerings! <snip>

Juan, Striker, et al:

Has there been any movement on the blue-highlighted section?

I didn't see any in my own HTF or a few of the others that I frequent.

Just didn't know if this was still intended to be handled this way, or if it was now being handled somewhere/somehow else, after the PEP got up-and-running.

Thanks,

Jake.

Hey Goatboy and Striker,

I think you're losing out on a wealth of instructional knowledge and ability.  There's several of us on here that are Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors.  We don't hold classes for the general public but we do teach.  Unlike a civilian instructor who gets students that spent their money for the training. We deal with people who have to be there.  We see all kinds of shooting problems on a regular basis and resolve all that we can.  We can help the other members.  

Using myself as an example, I am the Senior Firearms Instructor for a 60 officer Security Department at a large Defense Contractor.  I have to go through the same training and certification as an Instructor at a Law Enforcement Agency.  In April 2001, I attended the NRA Law Enforcement Handgun/Shotgun Instructor Course at the Mississippi Law Enforcement Officers Training Academy in Pearl, MS.  I went back for re-certification in 2004 and just returned from Panama City, FL where I completed the NRA Tactical Shooting Instructor Course.  My training plans, course materials and qualification courses all have to be approved by the NRA Law Enforcement Activities Division.

I have answered numerous questions about shooting problems in the training forums and have given advice on how to overcome the problems.  The answers and advice come from experience, hard won experience.  I, like many of my brother and sister Instructors, have had to take rookies who didn't know which end of a handgun to hold, teach them the fundamentals and then progress them to combat shooting.  To ignore our knowledge and experience because we don't hold public classes is really a diservice to the other members who can benefit.  I recommend you allow us to have the Instructor Icon also.  If you want proof, I'll be glad to scan my certificates and email them to you.

Marty Akers    

Originally Posted By PPCShooter1: Hey Goatboy and Striker, I think you're losing out on a wealth of instructional knowledge and ability.  There's several of us on here that are Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors.  We don't hold classes for the general public but we do teach.  Unlike a civilian instructor who gets students that spent their money for the training. We deal with people who have to be there.  We see all kinds of shooting problems on a regular basis and resolve all that we can.  We can help the other members.   Using myself as an example, I am the Senior Firearms Instructor for a 60 officer Security Department at a large Defense Contractor.  I have to go through the same training and certification as an Instructor at a Law Enforcement Agency.  In April 2001, I attended the NRA Law Enforcement Handgun/Shotgun Instructor Course at the Mississippi Law Enforcement Officers Training Academy in Pearl, MS.  I went back for re-certification in 2004 and just returned from Panama City, FL where I completed the NRA Tactical Shooting Instructor Course.  My training plans, course materials and qualification courses all have to be approved by the NRA Law Enforcement Activities Division. I have answered numerous questions about shooting problems in the training forums and have given advice on how to overcome the problems.  The answers and advice come from experience, hard won experience.  I, like many of my brother and sister Instructors, have had to take rookies who didn't know which end of a handgun to hold, teach them the fundamentals and then progress them to combat shooting.  To ignore our knowledge and experience because we don't hold public classes is really a diservice to the other members who can benefit.  I recommend you allow us to have the Instructor Icon also.  If you want proof, I'll be glad to scan my certificates and email them to you. Marty Akers

Marty:

Not sure, but as one who hold both NRA courses for the public as well as (non-NRA) intermediate level courses (also for the public), I haven't heard anything either after submitting my request a number of months ago.  So I'm not sure you're on target assuming the reason for inaction with your request (assuming you made one) is based upon not offering coursework to the public.

You raise a good point re: civilians paying with their own money because they WANT this training.  One of the guys I teach with is a LEO instructor and he says our classes are much more fun because of student attitude.  Students actually want to learn, as opposed to "do I haff to?".

Yes, I hope Goatboy and Stryker review the apps they have on file and recognize those here who actually use those creds and experience we have earned through years of hard work and learning.

John