Posted: 11/10/2013 6:46:51 PM EDT
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This is the fifth time I've taken one of Chris Frys classes. The second time I've taken this particular one. Chris is a civilian with no military or law enforcement background (Chris correct me if I got that wrong). He lives in NY and teaches a good amount of practical classes for pistol, shotgun, carbine, low light and edged weapons. His classes are typically 1 day, 8hr courses with the exception of some 4 hr clinics.
Class today started with the standard debrief and safety and went right into a qualification. 2, 4, 4. 3 mags from 20 yds away. Stand at the target. Run up range. Turn and get a click since the mag is in but no round in the chamber. Tap, rack and fire the only 2rds in your first mag. Run to the next check point while reloading. 4 rds from 15 yds. Run while reloading. 4 rds support side only. 50 seconds to do so. I failed miserably. Bad cold run for me. We then went into weapon retention and preventing gun grabs using our centerline and body core as well as getting the striking hand away to get time for strikes or secondary weapons. We learned to guard our face from strikes while shooting at contact distance from the #2 position. Next was shooting positions. Dropping to one knee, double knee, sitting, laying back, supine, prone and fetal from both sides. This was the first class I've taken using a AIWB holster on loan from Tom of Dark Star Gear while mine is being made. Chartreuse green holster definitely brought me some points and giggles. Chris had us walking up range only to turn and safely draw when in the designated line and hitting numbers, shapes or vital zones. We then had to work with angles. Hitting targets and making sure the target behind it was not hit or hitting the one in the rear and moving off line to avoid the target in the front. We safely ran from one target to the next with a high port and turned to hit paper and steel at varied distance. Last drill was doing figure 8s and having an RO yell out shape, letter and number combos that we had to hit, being mindful of muzzle direction and our surroundings, sometimes doing protection detail when Chris wanted to up the stress. Lastly we broke down and professed our love for each other and all hugged it out. I kid. Excellent class that changed from the first time I took it. Gun and gear (all Dark Star Gear except one pouch) were flawless except a Bladetech mag pouch that when filled with sand, made it impossible to draw a mag. There was a student with either ammo issues or an M&P9C that better go back to S&W. Class was extremely safe and the students really pulled together and performed admirably. 
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has anyone with an elite military or LE background taken these classes before? Just playing "devils advocate" here but if he hasn't been "in the shit", how can he teach you the appropriate skills not having applied them himself?
It looks like a fun day for sure. |
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I've met/known plenty of people who've been "in the shit" who can't shoot worth a damn. Some recent combat vets who quite frankly were truly horrible. A couple who were close to being unsafe around firearms. If you've spent enough time around shooting ranges I'm sure you've met plenty of Leo's who were the same.
So neither of those things automatically make you skilled, let alone an expert. I know of other trainers who are non Leo, non military as well. They just have tons of training themselves. I suppose its like anything else, just like a college education, you're taught something by someone who had it taught to them and on and on. None ever applying it in real life. And much of it having no application or value other than being able to teach it to even more people.  
Im speaking generalizations here, not for or against anyone in particular. While I've met Chris and spoke with him a bit about mostly unrelated things, I've not taken his classes (or anyone else's for that matter) |
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I've met/known plenty of people who've been "in the shit" who can't shoot worth a damn. Some recent combat vets who quite frankly were truly horrible. A couple who were close to being unsafe around firearms. If you've spent enough time around shooting ranges I'm sure you've met plenty of Leo's who were the same. So neither of those things automatically make you skilled, let alone an expert. I know of other trainers who are non Leo, non military as well. They just have tons of training themselves. I suppose its like anything else, just like a college education, you're taught something by someone who had it taught to them and on and on. None every applying it in real life. And much of it having no application or value other than being able to teach it to even more people.
Im speaking generalizations here, not for or against anyone in particular. While I've met Chris and spoke with him a bit about mostly unrelated things, I've not taken his classes (or anyone else's for hat matter) Of course, many who can "do" can't teach how to "do", and vice versa, I was just curious.... From my limited experience, the best training I've received was from individuals who not only served in elite units, but continued their education beyond that, taking parts from everything and molding it together in "ready to use" formats so to speak. |
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Classes usually have a few mil/LEO participants at any given time, and they all have said good things about Chris and his methods. Thank you! Even the group hug/love fest thing they liked? I liked the look of the drills and was interested in taking a course if it falls into my schedule/and is accessible |
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has anyone with an elite military or LE background taken these classes before? Just playing "devils advocate" here but if he hasn't been "in the shit", how can he teach you the appropriate skills not having applied them himself? It looks like a fun day for sure. I spent the better part of three decades in the U.S. Army Infantry and attained the rank of Major. No "elite" unit service here just light infantry (airborne) and mechanized infantry assignments. In addition to my military training and experience I've trained extensively at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Blackwater, Storm Mountain, Badlands, Rifles Only and some places you've never heard of. I've trained with Chris Fry on several occasions. The quality of his instruction is on a par with any "tier one" training outfit on this planet, (.gov and .mil included). The fact that Chris has never served in uniform is irrelevant. He is an accomplished instructor, a subject matter expert and a master practitioner of those skills he teaches. |
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I spent the better part of three decades in the U.S. Army Infantry and attained the rank of Major. No "elite" unit service here just light infantry (airborne) and mechanized infantry assignments. In addition to my military training and experience I've trained extensively at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Blackwater, Storm Mountain, Badlands, Rifles Only and some places you've never heard of. I've trained with Chris Fry on several occasions. The quality of his instruction is on a par with any "tier one" training outfit on this planet, (.gov and .mil included). The fact that Chris has never served in uniform is irrelevant. He is an accomplished instructor, a subject matter expert and a master practitioner of those skills he teaches. Quoted:
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has anyone with an elite military or LE background taken these classes before? Just playing "devils advocate" here but if he hasn't been "in the shit", how can he teach you the appropriate skills not having applied them himself? It looks like a fun day for sure. I spent the better part of three decades in the U.S. Army Infantry and attained the rank of Major. No "elite" unit service here just light infantry (airborne) and mechanized infantry assignments. In addition to my military training and experience I've trained extensively at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Blackwater, Storm Mountain, Badlands, Rifles Only and some places you've never heard of. I've trained with Chris Fry on several occasions. The quality of his instruction is on a par with any "tier one" training outfit on this planet, (.gov and .mil included). The fact that Chris has never served in uniform is irrelevant. He is an accomplished instructor, a subject matter expert and a master practitioner of those skills he teaches. I have no where near the credentials that you list above. I personally like the fact that Chris directs his training to "civilian type threat situations". Chris tells you right up front that he does not have military or LEO experience but he has trained with some of the best trainers in this Country and has worked what he learned into his classes. We cannot all be high speed low drag military or law enforcement operators and I have no interest in learning how to best breach a door with a SWAT team at my back. My focus is on keeping myself and my family safe in the scenarios most likely to be experienced in everyday life. I find the implication that only those who wore a uniform are worthy of teaching self defense courses ignorant in the extreme. |
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i wasn't implying that, just questioning it...
to take it a step further, there is no standard by which an instructor can be "rated", experience and background help to quantify but are NOT the rule in terms of someone ability to teach and pass on skills they have learned. Teaching Joe Average is not the same as teaching Joe Operator, and the skill sets needed are different as well. Like you I train in skills needed to protect my family, myself and my home, not storm safe houses or take out MS13 gang members(actually, sadly that might be an option where I live) I just like to know the training I spend my money on is the best I can buy for my time, travel and experience... |
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i wasn't implying that, just questioning it... to take it a step further, there is no standard by which an instructor can be "rated", experience and background help to quantify but are NOT the rule in terms of someone ability to teach and pass on skills they have learned. Teaching Joe Average is not the same as teaching Joe Operator, and the skill sets needed are different as well. Like you I train in skills needed to protect my family, myself and my home, not storm safe houses or take out MS13 gang members(actually, sadly that might be an option where I live) I just like to know the training I spend my money on is the best I can buy for my time, travel and experience... I'm almost positive you will not regret the money spent, and will most likely end up taking multiple classes from him if you have the opportunity. There are a ton of repeat participants from all different walks of life, and each time they end up coming out with something new, myself included  .
for those interested above, the website is www.mdtstraining.com |
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What an operator teaches you may not have any relevance to a civilian unless all out instability happens and you start rolling guns out with a fire team. He doesn't claim to be able to teach military units. If he did, he'd be a fraud. He teaches you to shoot as a civvy in your home or as a CCW holder.
Unless an operator is studied in CCW and local laws/acting as a civvy, he too would have no place teaching in those fields either as being at war is a completely different animal. You can find his schedule on his site as posted above. You won't regret his class. He is a great teacher and very humble. You will never see him teach something without it being smart and safe and well thought out. He is always changing when he finds better approaches. The love/hug comment was a complete joke on my part. |
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has anyone with an elite military or LE background taken these classes before? Just playing "devils advocate" here but if he hasn't been "in the shit", how can he teach you the appropriate skills not having applied them himself? It looks like a fun day for sure. I have trained with Chris and MDTS eight or nine times....maybe more. At each and every one of those classes, he conducts a debrief at the very end. Everyone stands around in a circle and talks about what they thought of the class. Without exception, each time, the LE and Mil guys all say, "This was better training than I got in the military/at the academy. Especially with regard to malfunctions" Every time. Plus... I took an advanced carbine course two summers ago with a high speed low drag dude who had real trigger time in the sandbox.....and he was a bad instructor. He spent the whole two days running a shot timer and doing demonstrations of techniques. No instruction given in two days. None. No feedback on what the students were doing, no concern for whether or not people could recreate the techniques he showed us, nothing. Not once did I see him work with anybody. Didn't correct anyone's bad stance or poor reloads or anything. It was like we weren't there. He was a good dude, but no teaching ability. He did the whole thing on the strength of his resume. |
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Quoted: has anyone with an elite military or LE background taken these classes before? Just playing "devils advocate" here but if he hasn't been "in the shit", how can he teach you the appropriate skills not having applied them himself? It looks like a fun day for sure. BTW You got my good side in that last pic  Awesome class! |
| dcnyli, let us know your thoughts after your first (not going to be your last) class with Chris. Another great training coming from the civvy arena is Jay Cunningham of Low Speed High Drag/Protective Shooting Concepts. He's in PA if you are ever there look him up. |
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...Even the group hug/love fest thing they liked? Quoted:
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Classes usually have a few mil/LEO participants at any given time, and they all have said good things about Chris and his methods. ...Even the group hug/love fest thing they liked? I assume you are referring to the picture of the handgun retention block. IMO just as valuable skills as being able to put rounds on target. Many people over look this, and get shot with their own guns. I don't think I have run into one person that hasn't taken at least one thing away from a class. The fact that he has so many people taking the same classes over and over again should speak volumes about his instruction and the material he teaches. He also keeps up to date by training with other providers and training outfits. I have trained with other instructors that primarily teach Mil and LEO and felt his material was just as good, and a even better value at the price point. |