Posted: 2/2/2010 9:30:08 AM EDT
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What are your true thoughts.
I have never attended and have been getting alot of mixed reviews. |
| I went a few months back with high expectations, an open mind, and willingness to learn. Well to be honest I was disappointed. We arrived early, only to find that each shooter had to assemble their own target stands out of cheap 1x3's. Every few minutes they would blow over with a good breeze. After each shooting session (10-15 rounds), I became worse simply because over the years I became good with the habits I had developed. Once I stopped listening to their way and shot my way I was back in the zone. There was alot of talking, enough to make your ears bleed, I just wanted to shoot. When we broke for lunch we all had 35 rounds total down range. We were told to bring 500+. My group left at lunch and that was it. I am sure many will get good info from this class so I am not trying to knock it, it just simply wasn't for me, or my friends. |
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Quoted:
I went a few months back with high expectations, an open mind, and willingness to learn. Well to be honest I was disappointed. We arrived early, only to find that each shooter had to assemble their own target stands out of cheap 1x3's. Every few minutes they would blow over with a good breeze. After each shooting session (10-15 rounds), I became worse simply because over the years I became good with the habits I had developed. Once I stopped listening to their way and shot my way I was back in the zone. There was alot of talking, enough to make your ears bleed, I just wanted to shoot. When we broke for lunch we all had 35 rounds total down range. We were told to bring 500+. My group left at lunch and that was it. I am sure many will get good info from this class so I am not trying to knock it, it just simply wasn't for me, or my friends. There's your problem, it's not just about shooting, it's about the history of the American Rifleman and how important it is to put a well trained and grounded individual behind every blade of grass if they are needed. |
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I went a few months back with high expectations, an open mind, and willingness to learn. Well to be honest I was disappointed. We arrived early, only to find that each shooter had to assemble their own target stands out of cheap 1x3's. Every few minutes they would blow over with a good breeze. After each shooting session (10-15 rounds), I became worse simply because over the years I became good with the habits I had developed. Once I stopped listening to their way and shot my way I was back in the zone. There was alot of talking, enough to make your ears bleed, I just wanted to shoot. When we broke for lunch we all had 35 rounds total down range. We were told to bring 500+. My group left at lunch and that was it. I am sure many will get good info from this class so I am not trying to knock it, it just simply wasn't for me, or my friends. There's your problem, it's not just about shooting, it's about the history of the American Rifleman and how important it is to put a well trained and grounded individual behind every blade of grass if they are needed. Really I do get it, the whole concept is a great thing to understand. The problem is that I am a history buff, I DO understand the importance of their teaching, it just moved too slow for me, and for most there as I have been told. They WERE unorganized, needed to move it along. |
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Really I do get it, the whole concept is a great thing to understand. The problem is that I am a history buff, I DO understand the importance of their teaching, it just moved too slow for me, and for most there as I have been told. They WERE unorganized, needed to move it along. I completely agree with you. When I read their website, I knew it wasn't for me. I try to stick to trigger control, breathing, calmness, posture and if i'm shooting far enough reading the wind.... talking or hearing about history is not on my list of things to do when I go to the range. When I want to learn about history I read books, when I want to learn tradition, I speak to elders. For those that enjoy that type of thing, it sounds wonderful. |
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I'll give the counterpoint to the above replies, and the disclaimer that I'm an instructor for Appleseed.
Yes, Saturday morning moves slow. We're trying to get everyone zeroed, learn positions, cover a bit of history, start to talk about proper sling use, and get everyone in the groove. Saturday afternoon tends to pick up, and Sunday is when the round count really starts climbing. 30-50 rounds by Saturday lunch sounds about right. By the end of the day, you should expect to go through another 150-250. Sunday the pace depends mostly on the shooters. With motivated shooters, another 500-700 rounds is entirely possible. If you already know the details of April 19, 1775 (and the days, weeks, and months before), then more power to you. You should still come and shoot with us. We're always looking for more instructors, and you can't teach until you've proved you can DO. Every single one of the instructors there has earned their Rifleman patch. That includes most of the instructors-in-training (orange hats) - they get a waiver for one shoot, then have to prove they've learned. If you already know how to shoot iron sights, know your come-ups, can use a GI loop sling properly (hint: carrying the rifle is only an added convenience, not the original purpose), understand the concept of minutes of angle (most people don't) ... well, then you shouldn't have any problem earning that little green patch. If you don't know the above, or want to brush up a little bit, then $70 for a weekend is the cheapest instruction you're gonna get. And if you still think you're all that ... do it with a bolt gun. 40 rounds, four minutes, three positions and three mag changes. I've seen it done more than once. ETA: Massad Ayoob went to an Appleseed this past weekend... and seemed to think it was worth it. |
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I have attended two appleseeds so far and they were both an excellent experience. The second event being less enjoyable because it was in december and I was shooting out of a puddle in the mud and snow. It certainly added to the experience though. I was also shooting a garand the second time around as opposed to my marlin .22 so that also complicated things greatly on account of the 8 round enblocs. The garand definitely does not lend well to taking the AQT's since you spend a good deal of time fumbling with the clips or trying to load 5 round en-blocs. The 5 rounders are very clumsy and you have to use 2 hands to load them. If I hadn't gotten so wrapped up in the AQT's I could have used my time better just practicing with the garand. I can tell you from experience that the fundamentals you learn on a .22 translate directly to the real thing. I think the event is appropriately paced for people that are really looking to sharpen their technique not ace the AQT's. I noticed a lot of guys complaining about the speed and for some of them it wasn't the first time attending the event so I can understand wanting to do more shooting. Keep in mind though the appleseed event is not about the patch its about becoming a better rifleman.
This brings me to my only real complaint about the appleseed. It seems like most people are using scoped rifles. While I would argue you still need most of the fundamentals to shoot a rifleman score I think the scope gives people an advantage without really mastering their technique. In fact if you looked at the equipment of most of the recent patch recipients you wouldn't find iron sights. I think the focus has become a little too much on earning the patch as opposed to becoming a truly better rifleman. it is worth going at least once, I can pretty much guarantee you'll be a better shooter for it. Just my .02. |
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Recommendations,
Instructors should get there before students and have enough targets and stands set up completely before the event. Teach multiple techniques in the beginning, and as students are in position make corrections, as they are going along. Checking targets, preparing mags, clearing line, all took waaaay too long, there were more than enough instructors there, why does every instructor have to look at every target and repeat what prior instructor just told you? Wasted time....Yawn... Final point and hope I don't get flamed for this, it should be 22 lr only without scope. This way no hearing protection needed and you would be able to hear instructor easier. The instructor at my event was shouting but I did not hear a word due to hearing protection and muzzle blast from CLOSE neighbors big bores. |
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I attended a CMP SAFS back in 2002 and the first day of an Appleseed last fall. As with all of these things, YMMV- mostly depending on who is running the show.
My SAFS started off with a morning of classroom, followed by dry firing and sighting in that afternoon. The instruction was geared towards CMP/NRA high power service rifle competition. The next day a simulated Garand match was run (we were shooting Garands, afterall!). Gun safety was covered, sight picture (irons only), prone, standing, sling usage. A total of about 55 rounds were fired over the two days, and at that time ammo are rifles were supplied. A certificate was supplied that showed shooting experience to allow one to buy Garands from the CMP. I see that the classroom instruction has been increased to a full day. This is a good course for anyone interested in High power CMP/NRA competition using the AR15 and follows those rules in general for rapid fire, safety, sling use, etc. and allows membership in some clubs. Cost now is $60 plus NYSRPA membership plus ammo costs. Juniors and service personnel are discounted. My Appleseed was a two day event but I could only attend the first day. I brought an AR15 and a 22 but ended up shooting only the 22 as the shooting positions were very close together. Course started with gun safety and loading techniques, then we did a simple qual test and sighting in. In between was instruction on position, sight picture (iron and scope), sling usage, breaking the shot, and more positions. At lunch a section on the beginning of the revolutionary war was given, especially on Lexington and Concord. After lunch we worked on more positions and ran a couple of full qualification tests. Rapid fire reloading was a bit different from CMP rules and a bit confusing for anyone without a removable clip( this is a "run what you brung" deal, as long as its a repeater). If they had some basic rules and instructions on their web site one could study beforehand that would help. Basic premise to teach one how to shoot their rifle better and learn some American History not taught elsewhere was met. Some techniques taught would or could not be used in standard high power competition. You do need your own rifle. Cost was $80+-$10 range fee plus ammo costs. There were more juniors than adults shooting which is a very good thing but juniors, women, service personnel (and elected officials?) were free, which made me feel a bit like I was footing the whole bill. I did learn something from each course and make it a point to learn something from any course I take. |
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I went a few years ago to the Calverton Appleseed. It's a good review of basic shooting skills and worth going to. I found the instructors excellent and easy to work with. I was familiar with the history aspect and enjoyed it with the theme of the shoot.
Fred on the other hand, is a bit out of his mind. Set in his ways and out of touch with reality. |
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Well, I am another Instructor with Project Appleseed, and one of the folks running the operation.
15 rounds by noon is low, compared to what I usually get done, but, Saturday is indeed slow. You should expect to fire about what my esteemed friend Zercool mentions, 30-50 rounds by noon. The pace picks up as the day goes on. And, for the person that left at noon on Saturday, you might reconsider and make it to one of the ones where Zercool or myself are at. Most of them you'll be shooting well in excess of 500 rounds, unless we also do a bunch of Full Distance shooting on Sunday as well. Even then, you'll top out at at or abover 500 rounds for 2 days. Yes, history of 4/19/1775 is part and parcel of it, but bear in mind Project Appleseed is run by a 501(c)3 non-profit and it isn't for marksmanship, but rather for history and heritage. We accomplish that through and with marksmanship. Frankly speaking, too many people in this fine country have forgotten their heritage and the simple fact that the citizens own this country, not the "powers that be" (not a political discussion, just a simple point). Add the fact that the average American has no clue how to shoot, and there you go. |
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Couple more points about Appleseed:
My round count for the first full day was over two hundred- each string was ten rounds in general and the two qual tests were four strings of ten each, with one string doubled, to make a possible max score of 250, I believe. I was into my fifth or six box of 22 ammo. The other point is there are now a lot of Appleseed events in New York- 20 events at 9 different locations and 13 different dates- while we are down to 1 SAFS event in NYS I know of. This makes an Appleseed much easier to attend for most people. |
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Quoted:
Well, I am another Instructor with Project Appleseed, and one of the folks running the operation. 15 rounds by noon is low, compared to what I usually get done, but, Saturday is indeed slow. You should expect to fire about what my esteemed friend Zercool mentions, 30-50 rounds by noon. The pace picks up as the day goes on. And, for the person that left at noon on Saturday, you might reconsider and make it to one of the ones where Zercool or myself are at. Most of them you'll be shooting well in excess of 500 rounds, unless we also do a bunch of Full Distance shooting on Sunday as well. Even then, you'll top out at at or abover 500 rounds for 2 days. Yes, history of 4/19/1775 is part and parcel of it, but bear in mind Project Appleseed is run by a 501(c)3 non-profit and it isn't for marksmanship, but rather for history and heritage. We accomplish that through and with marksmanship. Frankly speaking, too many people in this fine country have forgotten their heritage and the simple fact that the citizens own this country, not the "powers that be" (not a political discussion, just a simple point). Add the fact that the average American has no clue how to shoot, and there you go. AMEN BROTHER! Thank you for what you guys do. I've been meaning to get involved with appleseed, however getting married and having a little one has strained the purse strings here. |
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I've been to two Appleseeds at two sights. My last was in New York, at the excellent range in Van Etten New York. I ran out of ammo. Had to "borrow" a box from Nickel, the master instructor and one of the original Appleseeders. I finished half of a 500 round box and plowed through half of another. The targets were set up ahead of time, the instruction was excellent, the tempo was high, the company was great, and the oral history of the battle of Lexington and Concord was incredible. They ran a sharp, safe, regimented range where we got all sorts of chances to focus on technique and put rounds on paper.
That said, Appleseed's a volunteer organization, and it's had a slow start in NY. Each event is going to be different, and depend heavily on the quality and experience of the instructors. I'm sure there's a few bad eggs in there––but the majority that I have met were excellent, and I have yet to meet a range boss that I did not immediately respect. The Range Boss/landowner in Van Etten is quite a guy. Calm, quiet, confident, courteous, and an excellent instructor. Also, he let us shoot his .50BMG rifle, which was beyond awesome, and we shot several other rifles at distances from 25-650 meters. Again, I've been twice, and the instruction, dedication, and history of the Appleseeders have been excellent. The commitment to safety and the careful monitoring of what goes on at the line is top-notch. I cannot recommend the program more highly for those interested in learning the basics of rifle usage, and American Revolutionary History. When my sister was old enough to shoot, I took her to an Appleseed. And she shot for free! And a generous instructor loaned her a 10/22 so she didn't have to use my old battered pump-action Savage. These guys go above and beyond for their students! [edit] Oh, hey Nickel, didn't see you there til after I posted. I owe you a box of Federal from Van Etten this summer...PM me and we can work it out[edit] |