Quoted: and if you keep ammo in the passenger area your somehow breaking a magical non-existant law?

As I have already stated there is no requirement to transport anything in the trunk. The point being is the less stuff you have in plain sight the better off you'll be if you get pulled over. That includes the six pack of beer you just purchased at the 7-11. It's nothing more then using a little common sense.

Quoted: Quoted: and if you keep ammo in the passenger area your somehow breaking a magical non-existant law? As I have already stated there is no requirement to transport anything in the trunk. The point being is the less stuff you have in plain sight the better off you'll be if you get pulled over. That includes the six pack of beer you just purchased at the 7-11. It's nothing more then using a little common sense.

Im aware of this, but when I goto the range, I normally put the ammo in the back seat, on the floor, because in the trunk it can get knocked around....rifles normally go in the trunk, sometimes in the back seat also though, depends on how many im taking to the range.

Quoted: Quoted: Regarding the loaded magazine out of  the gun question, as it relates to NYS ECL 11-0931? Q:  A long gun with the chamber clear and the magazine removed but not emptied.  loaded or unloaded ? A:  The gun is unloaded, (NYS DEC commissioners decision from decades ago)  I believe the intent was to make the firearm safe from accidental discharge while under way and obviously to curb the road hunting. No special notes on case law found in McKinneys Consolodated laws of NYS.  Interesting, I see a note where gunclubs/ranges are not subject to the 500 foot discharge rule. Can another agency or a judge interpret it differently,...... you bet. Basically it is what it is unless you want to be the case law. SoS so according to the NYS atty gen its legal or?

All I know is that the DEC, whose law it is to enforce, interprets the law as I've stated it.  I don't know what Mr. Spitzer thinks, and I think this may be one of those classic examples of don't as the question you don't want the answer to......at least as long as it's Spitzer there or someone of his antigun bias.  I did check McKinneys, a law book that has case law cites in it.  The case law  cited for this section only was an issue of the charge being applicable even though the defendant was not hunting (possessed a loaded sawed off shotgun), that case was from 1963.  But I would imagine there must be more than half a million arrests for this in NYS since this law existed.

You can certainly request a legal interpretation from the Atty. Generals Office, you might also contact your county DA's office to see what other caselaw they may fine but as busy as those folks generally are I don't think they'll get back too you quickly (if at all).  Thirdly you can write a letter to the Commissioner of the DEC and request in writing an interpretation.  Either the legal staff or the director of the law enforcement dept. would most likely reply on behalf of the Commissioner.  They most likely will get back to you but there again they would have their interpretation on the law and maybe some additional case law.

SoS

Quoted: Quoted: I should have said that refusing to exit the vehicle will probably result in a dog being used on your car. If the dog alerts, they get to search. Failing to comply with an officer who orders you out of your vehicle after a traffic stop will likely result in you being forcibly removed from the vehicle, cuffed and stuffed in the patrol car.

LOL rkbar15, I wouldn't want to be that guy.

Quoted: Quoted: Not case law but  my anti-gun town tried to prosecute me for having a perfectly legal AR in the trunk. They originally tried to charge me with a number of gun charges, including ENCON stuff.   You left out the "AP ammo" and "Geez it looks like a MG" BS. It's a good thing the ATF actually knew the difference.

That was a really good thing, sometimes the ATF is your friend.

alright so its safe to load up my mags, store the two seperatly and hit the range then...thats good.

Lets load up the mags boys, grow a set of gonads, and just hit the range a SHOOT.
If your mags are separate form your rifleI DON'T SEE A PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!

ok...so what can we all agree on then?

Does anyone have solid evidence either way on this?

Quoted: ok...so what can we all agree on then? Does anyone have solid evidence either way on this?

This is from the NRA-ILA website:
"Loaded means a firearm with ammunition loaded in magazine or chamber or any firearm which is possessed by one who at the same time possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such a firearm. Possession of any loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle is illegal."


Im going to talk to a criminal attorney I know when I head back down to LI again. What I was told by a high school teacher (who was also a criminal atty) back 15 years ago when I asked this was:
"ok to load a mag and have it in your vehicle, you cant have the gun loaded though."

Anybody here who thinks that you cannot have a "loaded magazine" in your vehicle based on the wording of the above statement is smoking something. Based on the context of it, if for arguments sake you did ASSume that, then you could also not have any ammo with you in your vehicle, ie like when you go to the range. Simply not possible.

Bottom Line: You can have a loaded magazine, you can have ammo, you cant have a loaded gun in your vehicle.

Quoted: Quoted: ok...so what can we all agree on then? Does anyone have solid evidence either way on this? This is from the NRA-ILA website: "Loaded means a firearm with ammunition loaded in magazine or chamber or any firearm which is possessed by one who at the same time possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such a firearm. Possession of any loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle is illegal." Any questions?

The ECL statute makes no mention of a external magazine or clip so yes there is a question.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ok...so what can we all agree on then? Does anyone have solid evidence either way on this? This is from the NRA-ILA website: "Loaded means a firearm with ammunition loaded in magazine or chamber or any firearm which is possessed by one who at the same time possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such a firearm. Possession of any loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle is illegal." Any questions? The ECL statute makes no mention of a external magazine or clip so yes there is a question.

read my edit.

Quoted: ok...so what can we all agree on then? Does anyone have solid evidence either way on this?

From the NYS rifle and pistol Website regarding carrying a rifle, pistol, or handgun in NYS:

A license to possess a handgun serves also as a license to carry unless restricted. If there are no restrictions written on the license, the licensee is permitted to carry a handgun, loaded or unloaded, concealed, on or about his person. An applicant for a license to carry must be required to show, in addition to the requirement for possession, that "proper cause exists" for the issuance of such a license; for example, for target shooting, hunting, or self-defense. The license can be amended to include one or more additional or different handguns. The licensee is required to carry the license on his person at all times when carrying a handgun. Possession of any "loaded" rifle or shotgun in a vehicle is illegal. A loaded handgun may be carried in a vehicle by a properly licensed individual. ("Loaded" means loaded in magazine or chamber. A loaded handgun means one for which the person possesses ammunition.)

Im still trying to find a copy of the actual statutes on this.

Quoted: Im still trying to find a copy of the actual statutes on this.

All the applicable statutes from the ECL and PL are listed in this thread. Which statutes are you referring to?

I just sent an e-mail to the New York Rifle and Pistol Association, here is a copy of what I sent, I'll post back on this thread as soon as I get a response:

I have a question Ive been looking all over to try to solve. What is the law regarding having “loaded magazines” in a vehicle in New York State. Is it legal to have a loaded magazine NOT inserted into a rifle in your vehicle with an unloaded rifle (meaning no mag inserted into the rifle and/or no round in the chamber)?

This is the wording on your site and quite similar to others Ive found, but its somewhat confusing and misleading:
Possession of any "loaded" rifle or shotgun in a vehicle is illegal. A loaded handgun may be carried in a vehicle by a properly licensed individual. ("Loaded" means loaded in magazine or chamber. A loaded handgun means one for which the person possesses ammunition.)

When it says “loaded in magazine or chamber” does that mean that you cannot have a loaded magazine in your vehicle, or you cannot have a loaded magazine inserted in your rifle?

Thanks much for any help you can give on this.  

Quoted: Quoted: Im still trying to find a copy of the actual statutes on this. All the applicable statutes from the ECL and PL are listed in this thread. Which statutes are you referring to?

A link for a copy of the actual laws relating to carry and possession, not bits and pieces or excerpts off of the NRA site. The actual full copy of the laws.

too many laws...too much crap.  time for the great exodus to the Carolinas I think

Dieter,\

you are the official advance party then.  Scout locations for the rest of us.  I have about 15 years before retiring so that should give you some time.

SoS

This confusion on this web site is just like court.  These things that some of us think are obvious or implied are often neither.  Loaded should be defined in the Title or Chapter of the Law.  EG if you look at the ECL you use the definitions in the ECL.  If they aren't there then you end up poking around and "borrow" from either the Penal Law, Black's Law Dictionary, or failing that the common Webster's type dictionary.

Case in point the Vehicle and Traffic law defines motor vehicles to be cars, trucks, atvs, motorcycles and the ECL goes farther to include motor boats, farm tractors, snowmobiles.  Makes all the difference in the world when you are driving a farm tractor and shoot from it and get caught.  The devil is in the details and sometimes it is simply not worked out in some cases.

Having said all that,  I think a loaded magazine not in the weapon does not constitute a loaded weapon at all.  I think we are way overthinking this thing.

SoS

Quoted: A link for a copy of the actual laws relating to carry and possession, not bits and pieces or excerpts off of the NRA site. The actual full copy of the laws.

ECL - 11-0931.  Prohibitions on the use and possession of firearms.

caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c37/a26.html


PL -  ARTICLE 265 FIREARMS AND OTHER DANGEROUS WEAPONS

caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c82/a68.html

Quoted: Dieter,\ you are the official advance party then.  Scout locations for the rest of us.  I have about 15 years before retiring so that should give you some time. SoS This confusion on this web site is just like court.  These things that some of us think are obvious or implied are often neither.  Loaded should be defined in the Title or Chapter of the Law.  EG if you look at the ECL you use the definitions in the ECL.  If they aren't there then you end up poking around and "borrow" from either the Penal Law, Black's Law Dictionary, or failing that the common Webster's type dictionary. Case in point the Vehicle and Traffic law defines motor vehicles to be cars, trucks, atvs, motorcycles and the ECL goes farther to include motor boats, farm tractors, snowmobiles.  Makes all the difference in the world when you are driving a farm tractor and shoot from it and get caught.  The devil is in the details and sometimes it is simply not worked out in some cases. Having said all that,  I think a loaded magazine not in the weapon does not constitute a loaded weapon at all.  I think we are way overthinking this thing. SoS

"


Ya I cant wait to get outta here...away from this BS..

+1 on the info about farm tractors , lawn mowers , etc being motor vehicles...  I learned this from a local dealer.

Quoted: Quoted: A link for a copy of the actual laws relating to carry and possession, not bits and pieces or excerpts off of the NRA site. The actual full copy of the laws. ECL - 11-0931.  Prohibitions on the use and possession of firearms. caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c37/a26.html PL -  ARTICLE 265 FIREARMS AND OTHER DANGEROUS WEAPONS caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c82/a68.html

RKBAR15,

You have good search skills.  

By reading the penal law definition it is way more restrictive.  By the penal law you merely have to possess the ammuntion for the firearm to consider it loaded.  The question is could a prosecuter jump that definition over to the enforcement of the ECL, instead of the definition from Blacks law or Webster as to the meaning of unloaded.   I think it is obvious they could try.

Edited to alter my opinion upon more thinking of the matter, They really couldn't go on possessing in close proximity as the ECL is quite clear, the ECL uses the phrase unloaded in both the chamber and the magazine, so that would rule out that use of the definition.  Thereby the default would be to Black's law and then failing that Websters which should have a lot closer to the common sense interpretation that most of us take for granted.

SoS

Quoted: By reading the penal law definition it is way more restrictive.  By the penal law you merely have to possess the ammuntion for the firearm to consider it loaded.  The question is could a prosecuter jump that definition over to the enforcement of the ECL, instead of the definition from Blacks law or Webster as to the meaning of unloaded.   I think it is obvious they could try.SoS

The Penal Law defines a firearm as a pistol or a revolver.  A rifle or a shotgun is not a firearm n the PL. That is the reason that you will be charged under the ECL for possession of a loaded rifle/shotgun in a MV.

You looked better fat.

Quoted: Quoted: A link for a copy of the actual laws relating to carry and possession, not bits and pieces or excerpts off of the NRA site. The actual full copy of the laws. ECL - 11-0931.  Prohibitions on the use and possession of firearms. caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c37/a26.html PL -  ARTICLE 265 FIREARMS AND OTHER DANGEROUS WEAPONS caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c82/a68.html

Thanks, Ive been looking all over for that. Its very vague regarding this. It only states loaded to having a round in the chamber or in the magazine. Obviously a laded detachable magazine in the gun would be illegal, or a round in a fixed magazine would be illegal. Common sense would tell you that having a loaded magazine not attached is legal, which is what I was told by a criminal atty.

Pisses me off. I havent had much of a need to drive around with a loaded mag. But I did a few years ago, on September 11, 2001. I hope I never feel the need to again.

as long as I can have loaded mags in the car im happy....