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Posted: 12/23/2005 12:48:52 PM EDT

nj resident.
want to buy a 9mm, non-AR format carbine.
uses to include plinking, general SHTF capability.
favor reliability over aesthetics.
must work 100% with 115gr WWB FMJ and 124gr GD JHP +P.

what do you guys think of the Beretta Cx4 Storm?
www.cx4storm.com/
is it NJ legal?

what do you guys think about the Kel-tec SUB2000?
kel-tec.com/prod03.htm
is it NJ legal?

the SU2000 is very attractive to me in once sense that it could share my G19 mags.

any other suggestions?

thanks and happy holidays,
ar-jedi

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 3:00:36 PM EDT
Baised on the choices you listed, I would go with the Beretta Storm.
If you'll do a quick check from the NY section of the Equipment Exchange, there was a Marlin Camp-9 for ~$350. The Marlin is an excellent carbine type rifle that uses S&W double stack magazines. The only problem I've ever seen with one thru the gunsmiths shop was a broken bolt buffer (attaches to the guide rod and prevents the bolt from slamming into the rear of the reciever)
As a bonus for NJ residents, AFAIK it's not on the "banned" list of evil rilfes.
The Kel-Tec's aren't too bad, but if you get serious and/or budget permits you will get rid of it for something bettter. Same with the Hi-Point's
YMMV
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 3:49:44 PM EDT
I never heard a bad thing about the Storm. They're just ulgy. I shot one awhile back.....fun! A good friend has a Kel that takes Glock mags. After the last shot the mag falls out, always. Hk mp5 clones are hit and miss and over priced.
Move up to 45 and get a Hk USC. Great funDoes the Ruger police carbine come in 9 ?
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 4:27:50 PM EDT
IM sent.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 4:30:10 PM EDT
build a AR type platform with a barrel that doesnt have a flash hider
and a bayonet lug, and a non collapsing stock.

that will be one badd ass rifle.
i built one on an ameetec lower with a colt mag block pinned in.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 4:37:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:
IM sent.



replied.

ar-jedi

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 4:39:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BSOG1:
build a AR type platform


i.....uhhhh....have....uhhhh....enough....uhhh....AR's....

god was that difficult to get out.

ar-jedi

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 5:55:08 PM EDT
ah,, this is right up my alley ! my storm has been flawless since beretta has worked out the extractor claw problem. i have 68 million rails for tac lights, lazers, scopes, and a forward handgrip, you name it. accurate at 5 to 75 yards, and not to mention the mega cool factor! when ever i go to the range every single person in the place wants to shoot it! its a blast to shoot and you will NOT regret the purchase of this carbine. it is legal to have in the commie state of nj, and 15 round mags are obtainable. buy it NOW! i have the 9mm and let me tell you, 1000's of rounds down range, it ALLWAYS comes with me to the range. hope this helps!
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 7:53:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cx4stormer:
ah,, this is right up my alley ! my storm...


aha! someone who knows about the storm cx4 9mm...

1) what, in your view, makes it worth ~$600 or so?
2) what mags does the storm accept? cost per?
3) what else did you consider, 9mm carbine wise?
4) if you improve one thing, what would it be?

thanks for the info,
ar-jedi

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 8:49:46 PM EDT
Believe it or not HI-Point makes a decent carbine....and at about $190 you can't go wrong
I've shot one in 9mm and .40 and both were great shooters, accurate as you couuld ask for.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:30:53 AM EDT
I have a Hi-Point 9mm carbine. Has always worked good for me. Take 9mm all the way up to +9+. So ugly it's beautiful.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:41:30 AM EDT
I have a Sub 2000 that takes my Glock 19 magazines - thinking along the same lines as you. I have no complaints, it works as well as any 9mm carbine or subgun. The ergonomics aren't as good as an MP5 but the reliability and accuracy is good to go.

My initial Sub 2000 was one that took Beretta mags - I don't have a Beretta but the deal (at Firearms Guild in Rahway) was far too good to pass up - way below dealer cost for a very lightly used gun. It fell off a desk (in the unfolded position) and the front sight tower had a big argument with an AR front sight tower, which it lost. EMAILED kel-tec, received a reply "send it to us, we'll fix it". Sent it there, got it back in about 2 weeks with not only a brand new front sight assembly but a whole new barrel. Only got rid of the Beretta one when I got the Glock one.

Now that being said, I do not like the cut-down grip of the G19 model as much as the larger grip of the Beretta and G17 S2K models. It works best (most comfortable) with the older style G19 hicaps that fill in that little gap in the front. But it's a small price to pay for the ability to interchange mags with the G19.

If you owned a Beretta, I'd say consider the Storm, it's a nice gun. However I don't see a reason to spend $600 on a 9mm carbine for "SHTF" purposes (in other words, I hope you already have an AR/AK/HK/FAL type rifle before buying a 9mm carbine :). The main reason to me to have a small 9mm carbine is for situations where I'd rather not have a full size rifle or M4 type carbine with me. And the concealability/portability of the Sub2K cannot be beaten, unless you've got an MP5K or a Micro Galil :)

I'll try and post a picture here later today.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:14:19 AM EDT
I bought a STORM for my wife, who I love like my life, and SHE always lets me bring it to ARF.com meets where I let all who want, to shoot it. She loves it, I love it and all who try it love it! For lots trigger time go 9MM, and you can get the Beretta pistol 15 round magazines. If I were to get a "house sweeper" and looked for some trigger time I would go with the .45ACP. YMMV and MHO.

Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:17:07 AM EDT
...but I am looking very hard GLOCK feed AR9MM very soon. I have Glocks! A cocked and locked Glock is like ....
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 8:53:26 AM EDT
Ray's has a marlin camp 9 that i have been eyeing up. It is in 25ish range. Uses s&w mags.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:51:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-jedi:

Originally Posted By cx4stormer:
ah,, this is right up my alley ! my storm...


aha! someone who knows about the storm cx4 9mm...

1) what, in your view, makes it worth ~$600 or so?
to me, its style, reliabilaty, easy take down, and 600.00 is not that much to spend on somthing you really want. besides, ive spent 1000's on ammo!

2) what mags does the storm accept? cost per?

beretta 92 mags, 15 round mag cost 30.00

3) what else did you consider, 9mm carbine
wise?

rock river arms 9mm car a2. ( still might pick one up in 06! )

4) if you improve one thing, what would it be?

aaaah, select fire !!

any other questions feel free to ask, i love this stuff!

thanks for the info,
ar-jedi


Link Posted: 12/25/2005 2:06:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 2:09:13 PM EDT by riese]
I've had a Sub 2000 for a few years now and love it. Its accurate, reliable and just plain old fun to shoot. It fits perfect into my wifes BOB which is a 3 day pack, which is packed to the T. I also love it because I use the same mags for it and my Glock. I use Speer GDHP 124gr +P in it and never had a problem feeding. You could buy 2+ of them instead of the Storm (Even though it is a nice gun.)
Just my $0.02.

Riese
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:15:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By riese:
I've had a Sub 2000 for a few years now and love it. Its accurate, reliable and just plain old fun to shoot. It fits perfect into my wifes BOB which is a 3 day pack, which is packed to the T. I also love it because I use the same mags for it and my Glock. I use Speer GDHP 124gr +P in it and never had a problem feeding. You could buy 2+ of them instead of the Storm (Even though it is a nice gun.)
Just my $0.02.

Riese



Good to read this stuff, I am looking to get a sub-2000, G-17 compatible.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:34:04 AM EDT
I bought my Storm used from an ARFCOM member and have put a few hundred rounds downrange myself with it and have yet to have a problem. I think it's just so cool looking, and as an added bonus it is THE rifle they use on the new Battlestar Galactica...err...well...I think that's a bonus . The 9mm version takes the Beretta 92FS mags, which aren't too hard to find. I bought a few 15-rounders from the EE for a killer price, and aside from 1 FTF using an aftermarket mag, they've been reliable as well. Throw on an EOtech or something and it's really cool, although when my AR15 gets here the EOtech will go on that, so I'll probably pick up a cheapie Red Dot or something.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 3:56:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 8:25:57 PM EDT by ar-jedi]
guys,
thanks for the info. keep it coming.

ps
i just found these good threads:
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=188818

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=415215

ar-jedi

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 4:56:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GoingIncognito: so I'll probably pick up a cheapie Red Dot or something.

do your self a favor and dont waste your money on a cheap-o red-dot, ive had two, and both have stopped working, due to the storms blow back system the cheap scopes cant handle the recoil.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:01:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GoingIncognito:
I bought my Storm used from an ARFCOM member and have put a few hundred rounds downrange myself with it and have yet to have a problem. I think it's just so cool looking, and as an added bonus it is THE rifle they use on the new Battlestar Galactica...err...well...I think that's a bonus . The 9mm version takes the Beretta 92FS mags, which aren't too hard to find. I bought a few 15-rounders from the EE for a killer price, and aside from 1 FTF using an aftermarket mag, they've been reliable as well. Throw on an EOtech or something and it's really cool, although when my AR15 gets here the EOtech will go on that, so I'll probably pick up a cheapie Red Dot or something.

This is what you need, it's a modern looking Eotech to match the look of the Storm.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:06:10 PM EDT
I have both the CX4 Storm (.40) and a KelTec Sub2K (.40) (Glock Mags).

The Beretta is a high quality, well designed machine.

There is a known issue on some of them where the mag catch spring doesn't have enough power to reliably hold the mag in place during recoil. After a few range sessions, the mag started dropping out periodically upon recoil. The fix is simple and well documented - making a small bend in the spring increases the holding force (geometry issue). I have not personally range tested it yet since I've made the fix but feel that it will be fine.

The KelTec Sub2K is a wonderful, fantastic idea that I wish had been executed by a higher quality company. I would be willing to pay $600 for a high quality KelTec Sub2K version produced by Glock, Beretta, (insert quality manufacturer here). It has worked flawlessly thus far, but a simple visual inspection leaves no doubt about the chincy factor. The plastic front sight is not SHTF ready. Additionally, the grip halves (left and right) are somewhat glued and have a squirm factor where they do not form a solid grip unit. Also, the very feature of the folding carbine will necessarily detract from the overall strength and stability (trade-off). So, this should have been designed a lot stronger from the beginning.

The Storm is more fun at the range. The KelTec can fit in small places. Get both.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:47:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Camdeck:
I would be willing to pay $600 for a high quality KelTec Sub2K version produced by Glock...



ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=13&t=20217

ar-jedi

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:52:15 PM EDT
Ar-Jedi - I've seen that thread regarding the possibility of a Glock Carbine in 2006 but I believe current whispered information is that there is no Glock Carbine in the works. I have no information myself of course.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:33:18 AM EDT
all this talk about the sub 2000 has got me thinking i need one, i think the local gun shop has one, guess i'll have to buy it and let you know how i like it!!

i'm gonna tell the wife that ALL YOU GUYS made me buy it!
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 10:00:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cx4stormer:
i think the local gun shop has one


where?

thanks
ar-jedi
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 2:47:11 PM EDT
what about a post ban uzi ? they are just as good as preban uzis .. just no folding stock .. i have 2 .. ULTRA reliable .. more so i would say than any beretta storm .. and more rugged ..

yes no ?
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 4:17:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chrisp929:
what about a post ban uzi ? they are just as good as preban uzis .. just no folding stock .. i have 2 .. ULTRA reliable .. more so i would say than any beretta storm .. and more rugged ..

yes no ?



i did hear that uzi's are very reliable, i cannot comment for dont have hands on experiance with one. im not sure but i think any uzi or uzi clone would not be legal in nj, others may know better about the law . cause if you can own one in nj, i would rather have that then a kel-tec, but never ever give up my storm!
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