Posted: 3/26/2005 10:25:30 AM EDT
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Gun permit rules open to interpretation From county to county, decisions are based as much on local custom as on the law By JORDAN CARLEO-EVANGELIST, Staff writer First published: Sunday, October 17, 2004 The U.S. Air Force trained Maj. Dave Panzera how to fire machine guns, and has certified him to carry a gun at work since 1985. Oklahoma, Florida and Arkansas all let him carry a pistol anywhere he went, issuing a concealed weapon permit in no time at all. But New York was different. Despite his military service and training, the 38-year-old father of five had to prove to this state that he's an upstanding citizen before he could have a gun. "The suspicion is upon you," said Panzera, an Air Force pilot and chairman of the pistol committee at the Sportsmen's Club of Clifton Park. "I've never jumped through this many hoops in my life to show that I'm not a lawbreaker." Panzera did get a permit to own and carry a handgun in New York -- all he had to do was pick the right county. After being denied a "full carry" permit in Saratoga County, he moved to Schoharie County, where the law is interpreted differently. New York's gun restrictions are found in Section 400 of the state penal law. But how that section is applied varies tremendously from county to county because of the way the law is structured. Rather than allowing people to own handguns, Section 400 allows judges wide latitude in deciding who can be exempt from a ban on posession of guns, brass knuckles, some knives and martial arts weapons. Supporters of the law say it helps keep track of handguns and keeps them away from criminals. "You just can't be giving guns to people who shouldn't have them," said Albany County Sheriff James Campbell. The permit process, he said, is better than the federally mandated five-minute background check to stop criminals from buying guns from legal sources. But gun owners and even those who administer the law say it is maddeningly arbitrary, inconsistent and confusing. It's difficult to describe New York's gun laws in general terms because they vary greatly from place to place and are vastly different in New York City. Since 1911, New York has been one of 12 states that require residents to have a permit to own a handgun. In most states no license is required, though a majority issue separate "concealed carry" permits that can be denied only in light of a felony conviction or history of mental illness. Even those who know New York's law best are hard pressed to explain the motivation behind its convoluted provisions. "I'm not really sure you could call it a law enforcement tool," said retired State Police Lt. Lee O. Thomas, former head of the Pistol Permit Bureau and a former director of the New York State Rifle & Pistol Association. "If we go back to its historical beginning, it was a political tool," he said. Though it followed an attempt to assassinate a New York City mayor, it was used against political enemies. Panzera's saga is a tale heard often around New York state pistol ranges. Transferred by the Air Force from Oklahoma to New York in 2001, the Massachusetts native discovered there was no legal way to take his 9mm pistol with him. New York refuses to recognize pistol permits from any other state, though shotguns and rifles -- weapons that can do far more damage -- are virtually unregulated. Panzera notes with irony that he drove into the state with a perfectly legal rifle in his car. Before his move, Panzera surrendered his Ruger pistol to a federally licensed dealer in Oklahoma who charged him $35 to mail it to a dealer in Saratoga County, who held it four and a half months until he got a New York permit. He was lucky in two respects: The dealer on the receiving end didn't charge him for the service -- most do -- and County Judge Jerry Scarano waived requirements that an applicant live in Saratoga County for a year before applying and must complete a safety course. Of the 12 states that require permits, New York has the most lengthy process, taking as long as six months in some cases to collect multiple sets of applicant fingerprints and mug shots to be sent to local, state and federal authorities who check for any known criminal activity or record of mental illness. Applicants must supply character references and, in some counties, be interviewed by a judge. After following all the rules, Panzera got his permit in the mail -- discovering that Scarano had placed a common restriction on it: He could carry it only when hunting or target shooting. Months later a Schoharie County judge swapped that permit for one that allows him to carry his pistol almost anywhere in the state, even in Saratoga County. Inconsistent application of the law is increasingly common in upstate New York. "There really isn't a permit that can be restricted," said Thomas, adding that judges have only started to restrict them in the last 10 to 15 years. "There was a court case and the court case said that because a judge has this great responsibility, he should have some discretion in how he does it. But when you have cases like that ... certainly you're going to have abuses of it." In practice, the variations probably have less to do with corruption than with tradition. It's common knowledge that a full-carry permit is hard to get in the Capital Region. "The question is not so much giving the permit, but what, if any, restrictions you're going to put on it," said Albany County Judge Thomas A. Breslin. Applicants must say why they need a full-carry permit. It's up to the judge to decide if it's valid, Breslin said. "If a person just says, 'Listen, I just feel I have a right to carry one wherever I want,' I would say, 'Well, you know, I don't agree with that statement,' " he said, adding that "I'd prefer if the law was written more specifically, to have clearer guidelines." But in Warren County, most permits are unrestricted because that's the way it's always been done. "Historically being a lower crime area, that probably has a lot to do with it," said Warren County Judge John Hall. "I would think the more urban the county, the more crime, the more restrictions." That explanation angers gun owners because it implies that their rights vary from county to county and are determined by crimes they don't commit, said Thomas King, director of the state Rifle and Pistol Association. "The system could work well if there were reasonable and steadfast rules that each issuing officer had to follow," said King. He said the state should grant automatic full-carry permits to qualified applicants. Twenty-eight states have adopted such "shall-issue" laws since 1987, but attempts in New York typically pass the Republican-led Senate only to die in the Democrat-dominated Assembly. "I guarantee I cannot get a bill out of committee in the Assembly that would clarify any laws," said Assemblyman Richard Smith, an Erie County Democrat who has introduced several bills to create a "shall-issue" system. With 97 of the 150 Assembly seats in and around New York City, "the philosophy," he said, "is that you're not going to talk about gun bills. You're not going to clear up any laws." Assemblywoman Amy Paulin, a south Westchester County Democrat, has also introduced legislation that would make the law uniform along the lines of the Westchester and New York City systems. There, gun owners must get five-year renewable permits. "I understand that frustration," Paulin said of the complaints lodged by many gun owners. "However, I would like to err on the side of tougher gun restrictions rather than weaken them." Either way, though, said Thomas, "There isn't enough power anyplace to really change them." www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?category=REGIONOTHER&storyID=295780&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=10/17/2004 |
very interesting
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"Historically being a lower crime area, that probably has a lot to do with it," said Warren County Judge John Hall. "I would think the more urban the county, the more crime, the more restrictions." Dear Judge Hall: REGISTERED HANDGUNS ARE ALMOST NEVER USED TO COMMIT A CRIME IN NYS REGARDLESS OF THE COUNTY OF ISSUANCE". Talk about back asswards thinking. |
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Garbage like that is one of the reasons I enjoy living here in PA. I honestly cannot imagine anything that would make me want to live on Long Island again. Two pistols, two machine guns, two suppressors... One Carry Concealed License that took more time to find a parking space than it did filling out the less than 20 blanks (really) on the application. Including the renewal of the license. Anybody else coming down to the Free State of PA? |
I wish it only took 6 months. It took me 8months too a year! |
| If a criminal really wants a handgun he can go to the no so nice areas of NY and buy one in a few minutes, yea these laws really stop that. The only people these laws are stopping are law abiding citizens like me from getting one because I do not want to go through the hassel of obtaining a permit to own a handgun legally. I just cant justify paying these assholes $110 to determine that I am a "good guy" and for a card that says I can own a handgun. Ill wait till I have a house down south |
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There are an estimated 1-2 million illegal handguns in NYC. It has never been difficult for a criminal to get a handgun to commit a crime with in NY. No gun control law or any other law can prevent anyone from committing a gun related or any other crime. Anti-gun advocates have always lived in a fantasy world. A $109 application fee isn't too bad. Several other states charge an equivalent amount. Florida's license is $117 for a 5 year renewable license but it is good in many other states. |
| 4-a. Processing of license applications. Applications for licenses shall be accepted for processing by the licensing officer at the time of presentment. Except upon written notice to the applicant specifically stating the reasons for any delay, in each case the licensing officer shall act upon any application for a license pursuant to this section within six months of the date of presentment of such an application to the appropriate authority. Such delay may only be for good cause and with respect to the applicant. In acting upon an application, the licensing officer shall either deny the application for reasons specifically and concisely stated in writing or grant the application and issue the license applied for. |
I lived in one county most of my life, one reason I moved is that that county restricts pistol permits, despite being "Republican." I could probably have gotten a full carry permit through "connections." but left anyways. My present county has fallen to restricting permits also, also despite being "Republican." I doubt the future of NY, economically and politically, I doubt my children will be born and raised here.
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So what would be the proper way to go if you have been waiting 11 months for a reply? |
Send a written demand and ask for a response in 10 days. If no answer, commence an Article 78 proceeding to compel the issuing authority to act on your application. What county are you in? |
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An Article 78 will cost you thousands in legal fees. You cant do it on your own, has to have a NY lawyer representing. Usually, a simple phone call to your county permit department or State Police office handling it will give you a reason. I have seen it were the current judge who is on the bench for approving permits is leaving, and all paperwork is on hold waiting for the next judge to take over. If the current judge has a heavy case load, thats reason enough (in New York ) to allow a delay in the process. As an aside, here is a thought. If the judge is the supreme voice of authority in granting/denying you a permit, then maybe they should be held accountable when someone they have deemed "approved" for concealed carry uses their handgun in self-defense. In otherwords, allow the issuing judge to be sued along with the person who used a firearm to defend themselves. The logic being that if that judge felt the applicant was worthy of unrestricted handgun carry, then they need to be held accountable for any actions that person commits. For anyone who just read that and doesnt understand, let me explain. New York State is the single most litigous state in the entire country. You will automatically be forced into a lawsuit prosecuting your use of a firearm in self-defense. Happens everyday. You dont just shoot someone here, get a blessing from the police, and move along. Its going to cost you tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees proving your innocence and the dead perpatrators' surviving family will sue you in civil court for the next twenty years here. God, I'm babbling now.............just move the fuck out of this ridiculous state. |
Babbling is right! If a judge is held liable, we would NEVER get permits! I am going to submit mine today or tomorrow in Nassau County. The only thing I can hope for is that I meet a judge that can lift any restrictions on my permit. Bill H. |
And you dont "need" a lawyer to defend yourself in a murder trial, either. Feeling lucky punk  Judges are immune, thats also correct. But my point is that if they are deemed the ultimate grand authority on whether or not you, as a NY state citizen, are reliable enough to carry a firearm for self-defense, than maybe they need to be held accountable instead of being allowed to hide behind a veil of immunity. Simple. |
Bill, best of luck trying to "meet" a judge willing to lift your restrictions. Doesnt work that way in NY state. Presiding pistol permit judges in NY are appointed to the position, usually for a term of 6 months at a time.(thats a definite for Erie county, Nassau county could have different service terms) If the judges were held liable, then maybe they would need to remove themselves from the determination process. If you have any idea of how a Class 3 machinegun is transferred to a civilian, the local CLEO must sign off on the Form 4 stating that no reason exists to deny you the right to ownership of a full-auto firearm. They are in no way held to be liable if you do something illegal with the gun. My point is it should be the EXACT SAME THING in NY. All the judge should be required to do is to simply sign off on the pistol permit forms saying there is no reason for you to be denied from owning a handgun and be allowed to carry it for self-defense. New York practices draconian laws designed to selectively discriminate against its residents. |
Are you saying that a judge never puts a signiture on the paperwork in those 3 counties? It is news to me, but I dont know the details of "that" part of the state. That means that New York City, Suffolk, and Nassau place a higher authority in the Police Commisioners than the judges, compared to the rest of the counties in the state, correct? Is this somehow a byproduct of the ancient Sullivan Laws? |
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The law was changed approx. 25 years ago on L.I. 10. "Licensing officer" means in the city of New York the police commissioner of that city; in the county of Nassau the commissioner of police of that county; in the county of Suffolk the sheriff of that county except in the towns of Babylon, Brookhaven, Huntington, Islip and Smithtown, the commissioner of police of that county; for the purposes of section 400.01 of this chapter the superintendent of state police; and elsewhere in the state a judge or justice of a court of record having his office in the county of issuance. |
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These are the two bills currently before the NYS Assembly that need to be passed. PURPOSE: To prohibit a license-issuing officer from imposing unregulated restrictions or conditions on a firearms license or license holder. assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A03195 PURPOSE: Provides that a properly issued license to carry a pistol or revolver is valid throughout the entirety of the state, including the city of New York. assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A05754 |
I think my local assemblyman Smith said it best concerning changes in NYS gun laws. |
I don't doubt the civil lawsuits, but at least here in Erie County you likely won't get charged if it was self defense. There's been at least 3 or 4 stories in the news that I remember in the last couple years of a permit holder shooting someone in self defense, at least twice not even in their home, and within a day the DA said there would be no charges that's one reason I voted for the guy when he was up for re-election. that plus he was the only guy on the ballot edit: from memory there was a store owner who shot a guy trying to rob him. I think the robber shot first and I know that the robber should not have been on the street but the ADA on the robber's previous case didn't go forward on illegal handgun charges and the guy got released there was the guy in some sort of private club that shot one of two punks that came in with guns. one of the punks (I think the one that got shot by the good guy) ended up shooting his punk friend with a shotgun Some guy in Buffalo, I think on elmwood, shot an intruder in his house. I think this was th emost recent of the ones that made the news |
letter mailed. short but Assemblyman Hayes is a good guy and it won't take a long letter to get him to support a pro gun bill. and he's now minority whip
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Okay Giggles, first off, I fucking hate you! If I thought I could stand to commute from anywhere in Pa other than the friggin' PokerNose to Manhattan without losing my mind, I'd move in a minute....as it is, I'm stuck in NY for at least 13 more years....  Anybody got a cabin in the Mattamoros area to sell me? |