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Posted: 6/17/2003 12:36:24 PM EDT
Were any of you living in the Southern Tier in 1997 when the Indians revolted against the state trying to tax their gas and smokes? Sounds like I missed a pretty wild party. Can any of you New York State old-timers fill in some more details?

This article from www2.buffnews.com/editorial/20030617/1007844.asp


State hopes peace will prevail on tobacco law
By DAN HERBECK
News Staff Reporter
6/17/2003

The situation got ugly in April 1997, the last time the Seneca Indians and New York State really tangled over the issue of tobacco taxes.
Demonstrators burned big piles of tires, closed major roads in the Southern Tier, fought with state troopers and even stole some troopers' hats and wore them.

State officials are hoping there will be no repeat performance Wednesday, when the state plans to begin enforcement of a public health law prohibiting unlicensed Internet and mail-order tobacco sales.

"Our plan is to move forward with the enforcement (on Wednesday)," said Thomas Bergin, spokesman for the state Department of Taxation and Finance. "We think responsible cigarette sellers and carriers will comply with the law."

Bergin declined Monday afternoon to comment on the possibility that Native American tobacco retailers - who feel the law is directed at them - will react violently to the crackdown.

But the State Police is preparing for possible trouble. Troopers in Western New York have been told to be ready for temporary reassignments to deal with potential Thruway blockades or riot situations.

"We hope there will be no trouble. I can't predict," said Maj. Michael McManus, the State Police commander in Western New York. "We'll do everything we can to maintain peace and order and to keep the roads open for everyone."

Many troopers still recall the events of April 1997, when black smoke billowed from huge roadside tire fires started by Senecas in protest of a Pataki administration plan to begin collecting tobacco and gasoline taxes from Native Americans.

Fighting between the protesters and troopers resulted in at least a dozen injuries to troopers and numerous arrests of Senecas. Large portions of the Thruway and other major roads in the Southern Tier were blocked off by hundreds of demonstrators.

McManus was one of those hurt, suffering injuries to his knee, neck and finger when protesters threw him to the ground. He said he also had problems with blurred vision after a caustic substance was sprayed into his eyes by a demonstrator.

Scott Maybee, a tobacco retailer who is president of a business group called the Seneca Sovereign Partnership, is hoping the issue will be solved in the federal courts.

Attorneys for Maybee and other Internet tobacco sellers plan to ask U.S. District Judge William M. Skretny today for a temporary restraining order, preventing the state from enforcing the law.

Skretny may meet with lawyers today to schedule legal arguments on the issue.

"My preference is to work through the courts and the political system and to engage in peaceful demonstrations, like the one we had in Albany a few weeks ago," Maybee said. "There are other Senecas who would go far beyond that."

"The state says it is trying to stop Internet sales because it is a public health issue," said Joseph F. Crangle, Maybee's attorney. "That's nonsense. Stopping Internet sales is not going to prevent people from buying cigarettes and smoking. This is strictly a money issue for the state."

Some state lawmakers believe the state is losing as much as $400 million a year in tax revenues because of the untaxed Internet cigarette sales.

The Senecas, meanwhile, maintain that Internet sales give a huge financial boost to people on their two reservations, providing some 1,500 jobs with yearly salaries of about $28 million.

Seneca President Rickey Armstrong could not be reached to comment Monday.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 3:43:22 PM EDT
Similar things happend on the Mohawk Res and the Onondaga Res. Although it wasn't over smokes and the NYS gov really.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 6:44:46 AM EDT
..State`s crying because they realize how much money they are NOT raking in......well maybe they should have thought about it 200 years ago......leave them people alone....they should be glad the reservations are making a living now...rather than suppressing the natives to poverty and submission.....land of oportunity?.....not likely that the fed will violate any treaty matters to give cheese to uncle george.....maybe the natives would`nt mind working with the state...if the politicians would not try to force themselves on, like they have been.....the native people are`nt after the commons...as most of us feel the same....they just don`t want any government taking anything else away from them.....rightly so!...
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 7:07:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlackandGreen:
as most of us feel the same....they just don`t want any government taking anything else away from them.....rightly so!...



Yep, I'm down with that.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 10:44:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 12:42:40 PM EDT by pickupdan]
All right....

Why is it there a special class of citizens here in this state or thru out the country?

I had the misfortune of having to live next to the Akwasansnee (sp) reservation as a kid. What a bunch of lazy spitfull bastards... A few good one's the bunch... but I would not give you a bucket of piss for the whole lot... What I used to swing baseball bats with to survive, now carry FA ak47's and M16's. This is a land of lawlessness and another huge hole on our northern border for god know what to crawl in....

FIRST If you are a native american you pay no STATE or FEDERAL income tax... How would you like to have that deal?

SECOND If you are a native american you are granted a free education. No PROPERTY Taxes... AND they are given a free college education.... Most just piss it away... booze, drugs and don't apply them selves...

THIRD If you are a native american you don't have to abide by the laws of the land. If a helicoptor is flying overhead, they can shoot it down. If your family member is walking down the road and your drunken ass runs over your family member you can run back to the rez and the law will leave you alone. There day is commin'

FOURTH If you are a navtive american living on a rez, you do not have to collect sales tax and have a unfair advantage to the surrounding store keepers.

Ok there land has been taken away, but every other conquered nation on earth has assimilated or left... Sorry that is life and if you don't like it, LEAVE...

If you think putting money in the pockets of these types of people go for it so you can save a few tax dollars. Bullshit... But I would never.. Even if my pickup ran out of gas in the middle of a rez, I would push it off before they would get a nickel out me... First they drain our tax dollars in social programs and don't pay a friggin dime for it....

With the state and federal goverment keep fostering a privilaged class of people can only breed ill will and naturually creates conflict. If there is a SHTF senerio is this country the biggest problem is going to be containing these wolf packs... Mark my words...

Now, let me put this question to you? If this is the land of the free, the brave and everbody is equal, where is the equality? If me and a couple of thousand like minded individuals staked a plot of land and decided not to pay any tax, How long do you think we would last? Shit, the bradleys would be rolling straight thru the area and make Waco look like a bar room brawl...

It is time to end this madness.....

Off the soap box
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 1:10:42 PM EDT
....Because....that is what uncle PROMISED..in writing...when he decided that the left over people who he just raped and pillaged after taking away thier freedom...shall be placed on specific land....to be "watched"...controlled..that is.....and..as was in those days..whatever we "promise"..shall be a lie or we will change the rules as we go....AS LONG AS WE SEE WHERE WE CAN BENEFIT.......since there is very little honesty in this world.....much-much greediness...NO accountability whatsoever....and if someone has something I don`t......UNFAIR....does`nt matter how he got it.....yeah..it`s free enterprise...and if the roles were reversed...mr. dan...I`d like to hear your opinion in that senario.....sometimes..I wonder if it is a power issue...more than money?...someone the state can`t control as they see fit....great ai`nt it?.....blame pataki....he`s a greedy soul
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 4:04:35 PM EDT
Black and Blue....

The state or federal goverment has control of everything and EVERYBODY. Just not play by the rules and see what happens... I detest that the "native american" has a differnt set of rules....

If a piece of paper is what you are holding onto, than get used to it. YOU LOST!!!!! Not a power issue, just a statement of FACT!!!!

Why is it you feel that you are a privilaged citizen with all of its liberties but not do not have to toe the line and pay your fair share like ever other taxpaying citizen of this nation?

I believe in helping out in times of need. A hand up as we call it here, but I detest a hand out. With the native americans it is a constant suckling from the money tit....

We have middle eastern, european, asian, south american, and many more in this country and they work hard and contribute to this great country.

Mr. Black and Blue
If I had a sweet setup as the native american does, I would bitch and complain to keep as much as possible. Don't blame them for fighting. BUT You would have to also agree the rest of this great nation (Not the Iroquios Nation) works hard, pays it taxes and works together.

If you want your own land take up your arms and fight for what you think is yours. At least then this will get settled for once and all...
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 5:57:41 PM EDT
For the record the federal courts have ruled that the State of New York may compel Indian tobacco retailers to collect appropriate taxes on sales made to non-Indians off of the reservation. That is federal law, and is now state law as well.

There is far more than meets the eye here. I have been involved in this issue for more than four years now and am still but a rookie when it comes to this issue. There is a lot of unsetteled law at play and is being worked through the courts.

But for the record, once again, the federal courts have ruled that Indian tobacco retailers may be compelled to collect taxes in certain situations. This also applies to gasoline, etc.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 6:31:35 AM EDT
Hiram, what is the story with Pataki and the new casino going in near Niagara Falls? Seems Elmer cut another backdoor deal to the taxpayers detriment...

The Oneida Turningstone Casino is a huge local financial success. A friend of mine got married there recently, so I decided to attend the wedding to check things out despite my personal boycott of the Oneida Indian Enterprises. You should have seen all the zombies, cigerettes dangling, beer in hand, feeding the slot machines. Disgusting. The irony here is that local palefaces are happily handing over the cash for the Oneidas to buy up huge gobs of local land in the disputed land claim area, and then promptly take it off the local tax rolls. The Oneidas and their leader, Ray Halbritter, are not stupid. They are "voluntarily" making payments to local school districts to compensate for this tax loss, but does anyone doubt that when they buy back as much land as they want, they will politely tell the local districts to buss their backsides?

The land claim issue is huge in NY, and the creation of 2 classes of citizens with seperate rights and civic responsibilities is a festering boil waiting to erupt.

Link Posted: 6/19/2003 9:20:45 AM EDT
SP10, to be honest, I have zero involvement with the casinoes and wouldn't even know who to ask. Have my hands full with the cigarette tax issues, increases in sales tax, discontinuation of the clothing exemption, the income tax surcharge, streamlines sales tax project... get the picture?

OK, have to head back to the office from lunch. Talk to you all later.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 9:26:38 AM EDT
Hiram...

What exactly is the income tax surcharge going to be? The wife went back to work last year and I got screwed royaly this year.....

How much vasaline am I going to need this year?

You know, we get hit with more income tax to pay for reinstating of school funding. But the property taxes went up anyway because all of the funding was not reinstated.....
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 9:48:39 AM EDT
HEH, if I were you, pickupdan, I'd be looking for the "economy" sized jar. Methinks you'll need it...nowhere do I see Sir Hiram intimating anything about a tax DECREASE overwhelming his work load....

Shit, if the state keeps it up, they will have more than an Indian tax revolt to worry about.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 10:39:35 AM EDT
Alright everybody stop shooting the fucking messenger. Let me begin by saying that I think each and everyone of these increases was unneeded... The state of New York does not have a revenue problem, it has a spending problem.

The income tax surcharge was not in the Governor's budget. In fact with the exception of the temporary repeal of the sales tax exemption on clothing, none of these major increases were the Governor's initiatives. In fact, he vetoes each and every one of them. The LEGISLATURE did veto over rides and here we are.

The income tax surcharge kicks in when your combined income exceeds $150,000. I believe the rate is .7%, but I need to check that. Will find out for sure and post all the details here for everyone.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 3:57:06 PM EDT
Hiram,

Spending problem? Ya think! Damn, if I ran my finances like the state I would be in jail....

Not looking to shoot the messenger Hiram, just looking for info. I appreciate anything you can provide to help me understand it. Yes, Pataki did not do this, it is our pos legislators..

I was my impression the over $100K crowd was getting hit. If it is the $150K and over I might just miss it...

It it nice to have a set of eyes in Albany....

Later,


Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:29:24 PM EDT
There were so many income levels talked about during the negotiations, $100,000 I believe was for a single earner. From what I recall, the $150,000 was for a combined income.

I'll try to track down the TSBM at work tomorrow.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 4:55:00 AM EDT
...Yes Hiram...you are right on about spending.....I can relate.....am personally responsible for some of that spending...on a daily basis....a small contributor by comparison...nevertheless....I`m well aware of how much of the $$$ flies away.....
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 7:10:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2003 7:23:29 PM EDT by sharky30]
I was in Chautauqua county then but don't remember much of the details as I wasn't driving through either Irving or Salamanca very often (still in highschool) so had little contact with Senecas
kind of remember them blocking the I90 for a while, I think in the area where they have the indian statue now, th one giving the heil hitler type right arm raise. Is that statue still there?
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