| Competition in the market, good! Looks like better prices than this one: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_8/537118_D_Magazine_review_of_Helicoptersniper_com.html |
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It's interesting to see other people doing this, its something my company does too. www.helibacon.com. The guy in Denton also runs a hog hunting business and has a nicely done (but full of safety violations) video on YouTube. The guys in Temple also operate hog hunting and it looks to be G&T outfitters. The one in D Magazine is pretty expensive for the end result, as its only 20 minutes of flying it looks like. Flying with correct insurance is VERY expensive so his prices are not shocking for the experience but for the actual flying time it seems high (ish). He also got on Fort Worth news recently because some local residents didnt like what he was doing. He also operates with Craft Int so he must be decent at what he does. The G&T one is in line with their other pricing, which is very low, I guess they just have a better insurance broker than I do. Either that or more likely, there is a minimum group size which covers their costs. I do not like the idea that you are shooting at steel targets, ricochets are a tad more important to avoid when you're flying a machine 50 yards away from the impact point. We use self healing plastic targets that fall when hit to register the shot. If you're looking to use them you also need to be aware that unless they have a federal explosives license, it is illegal to make money from explosives (such as shooting exploding targets) without an FEL. And I don't see any of their company names listed on the ATF FEL licensee site. Personally I like to stay away from any excuses to invite the ATF into my life any more than they already are. That said, don't let any of the above put you off, just be diligent when investigating who you're going to give a lot of money to. For Aerial gunnery in general you will find it one of the most exciting experiences you can do, its a very different experience shooting from something that requires you aim behind, and sometimes low to make what would otherwise be a very easy shot. For people who shoot a lot, it creates a very new, very challenging aspect to something that is normally pretty easy for experienced shooters. |
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I've know Jeremy (guy running this) for several years and he is a great guy. A few guys that I shoot 3 gun with did one of the earlier outings and had a blast. Highly recommended! |
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I've know Jeremy (guy running this) for several years and he is a great guy. A few guys that I shoot 3 gun with did one of the earlier outings and had a blast. Highly recommended! Quoted:
I've know Jeremy (guy running this) for several years and he is a great guy. A few guys that I shoot 3 gun with did one of the earlier outings and had a blast. Highly recommended! I also know Jeremy Stillman (AR15Targets.com) and have competed in his most recent multigun matches at Hidden Falls Heli Gunner should have more info about who the pilots are and their flying experience (hours) |
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Figured I'd chime in really quick here, that's a great suggestion and something I can't believe I omitted on the website!
(Check the website again in a few hours, I'll get it on there ASAP!!! I'm thinking I intended to put it under FAQ's, but we haven't made those yet, and that is information that needs to be out there right now!) Our pilot (Richard) runs the Texas division of Paradise Helicopters. Paradise Helicopters operates 10+ helicopters and Richard himself has over 13,000 (yes thirteen thousand) hours logged in a helicopter and he has done everything from helicopter tours in Hawaii, search and rescue missions and sling load lifts to water drops for firefighting from a helicopter. He also happens to be one of the most personable and friendly people you could ever hope to meet. Richard personally oversee's the maintenance and operation of this aircraft which means he cares for it as if it was his own life and reputation on the line; because it is. I'll post another post in a little bit with some more information about the event and why we opted for an MD-500 over other options. |
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Figured I'd chime in really quick here, that's a great suggestion and something I can't believe I omitted on the website! (Check the website again in a few hours, I'll get it on there ASAP!!! I'm thinking I intended to put it under FAQ's, but we haven't made those yet, and that is information that needs to be out there right now!) Our pilot (Richard) runs the Texas division of Paradise Helicopters. Paradise Helicopters operates 10+ helicopters and Richard himself has over 13,000 (yes thirteen thousand) hours logged in a helicopter and he has done everything from helicopter tours in Hawaii, search and rescue missions and sling load lifts to water drops for firefighting from a helicopter. He also happens to be one of the most personable and friendly people you could ever hope to meet. Richard personally oversee's the maintenance and operation of this aircraft which means he cares for it as if it was his own life and reputation on the line; because it is. I'll post another post in a little bit with some more information about the event and why we opted for an MD-500 over other options. Thanks for chiming in! I'm all for the MD-500, which seems a much safer platform than the Robinson R22 or R44 others use! How does Richard pair up the shooters and their gear for proper weight and balance distribution for each evolution? |
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Sorry it's been a while since I've got a chance to post on AR15.COM, in case my last post didn't give it away, I'm Jeremy Stillman with AR15TARGETS, the one that is organizing these aerial target practice events for the public.
I have been involved in helicopter based gunnery for many years, I have worked with Texas DPS since day one of their program developing their Aerial Marksmanship Unit and we have even designed specific targets exclusively for use from aerial platforms that take into account the differing angles of engagement. It was after years of being involved with this and other helicopter based units that the opportunity came about to offer this very unique experience to other people in the shooting community. When I first started with helicopters almost 20 years ago my first couple of hours in flight training school were in Robinson helicopters, finished off the majority of my training in an Enstrom and have had the pleasure of flying Blackhawks, Jetrangers, ASTARS and now an MD500 since then! Don't get me wrong I am no commercial helicopter pilot and don't expect to see me behind the stick of a helicopter until I have at least a 10th of Richards 13,000 hours! The experience of being in an MD-500 is nearly impossible to describe, the best I have been able to come up with is calling it the Ferarri of helicopters. I have often been asked why we are using an MD-500 instead of a Robinson helicopter like it appears almost everyone else in the hog hunting business is doing, this is a tough question to answer. The MD-500 has a turbine engine (instead of a piston engine), 5 bladed rotor head(instead of a 2 bladed) and very spacious (by helicopter standards) seating for 4 people. Compared to other helicopters out there I could not think of a more apt aircraft to use for our events then this one, (unless you factor in price, OUCH!), it is after all the aircraft of choice for most military and SWAT teams that use their helicopter for tactical applications. However a fairly hefty price tag of about $1.5million dollars does help add to it's Ferarri mystique considering a Robinson R44 is just about a half of a million dollars. In our application we put the gunner safely seated inside the back seat of the aircraft with a safety harness, we put a trained safety officer next to them in the other back seat much like an RO at a match. Having the pilot and gunner on the same side of the aircraft allows the pilot to see exactly what the gunner see's, line up the aircraft to get a good shot angle on the target all while maintaining eyes forward! The ride in the MD-500 feels like it is on rails, once the gunnery run is completed you can feel the power and agility of the aircraft as it maneuvers it's way around for another run. Because the aircraft costs 3 times as much, and nearly twice as much to operate per hour as the much more cost effective Robinson helicopters that most hog hunters are using I was completely amazed to see that Helibacon thought that our prices were very low! (We are partnered with G and T outfitters, check out our sponsors page) I can't believe that we are somehow competitive in the market with twice the operating costs as most of the other people offering hog hunts with Robinson helicopters. The cost is $1,000 per person for a 2 person session. That is 3+ hours of hunting for a total of $2,000. Broken down that works out to about $667 an hour of flight time, not sure how that compares with other people. (And don't worry Helibacon, we don't actually rig up the explosives ourselves, we leave that to the professional pyrotechnics company that we bring in for our events when such things are involved, I do see that ya'll have an explosives class! That is AWESOME, I've been tempted to get my own license, since we already manufacture and sell machine guns and suppressors, why not get into explosives too! However after working with the pyrotechnicians I'm fairly confident I want to leave that to, them! However do you have any idea how Tannerite is legal for all of these matches and events that use it? This is probably a discussion for a completely different thread) As I was typing this I noticed a few more comments roll in about aircraft type and preferences. I'm trying to avoid throwing out my opinions about anything other then what I'm currently involved in because I'm simply not an expert and opinions tend to incite controversy! However I think Helibacon's outfit is running some Robinson helicopters and he tossed out some opinions about Robinsons and MD-500's that I would completely agree with, I'll toss out a very objective opinion myself. I wouldn't personally consider an R22 (2/3 person) Robinson helicopter for a commercial application like this. It's a much smaller and more "tame" aircraft, I think it is perfectly suited for training and cost effective tours and flights, which is what I assume it was designed for since that's how I often see them used. The R44 is the bigger Robinson and seats 4+ people I believe depending on configuration. It would be much better suited for this type of commercial application as it has more power, a larger size and a more solid airframe than the R22. The MD-500, is obviously my favorite, but again the price plays a big role in both acquisition and hourly operational costs. I wouldn't personally suggest that the MD-500 is a "Safer" aircraft as the Robinsons are an exceptionally safe aircraft, but I do believe the MD-500's performance envelope does far exceed the Robinsons, which means you can do more with it while remaining within it's safe flight parameters. I do however think that a lot of the MD500 helicopters performance won't be realized in the average hog hunting session (I can't imagine a backflip/loop would be of any use on a hog hunt unless the hogs armed themselves with SAMS!!!) |
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Thanks for chiming in! I'm all for the MD-500, which seems a much safer platform than the Robinson R22 or R44 others use! How does Richard pair up the shooters and their gear for proper weight and balance distribution for each evolution? Quoted:
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Figured I'd chime in really quick here, that's a great suggestion and something I can't believe I omitted on the website! (Check the website again in a few hours, I'll get it on there ASAP!!! I'm thinking I intended to put it under FAQ's, but we haven't made those yet, and that is information that needs to be out there right now!) Our pilot (Richard) runs the Texas division of Paradise Helicopters. Paradise Helicopters operates 10+ helicopters and Richard himself has over 13,000 (yes thirteen thousand) hours logged in a helicopter and he has done everything from helicopter tours in Hawaii, search and rescue missions and sling load lifts to water drops for firefighting from a helicopter. He also happens to be one of the most personable and friendly people you could ever hope to meet. Richard personally oversee's the maintenance and operation of this aircraft which means he cares for it as if it was his own life and reputation on the line; because it is. I'll post another post in a little bit with some more information about the event and why we opted for an MD-500 over other options. Thanks for chiming in! I'm all for the MD-500, which seems a much safer platform than the Robinson R22 or R44 others use! How does Richard pair up the shooters and their gear for proper weight and balance distribution for each evolution? Richard is simply a genius when it comes to things like this, it's simple, he asks me to figure it out for him! Hah On the registration paperwork we ask a very tactless question of "What is your weight". Since we put a shooter in the front right seat, then alternate them to the back left seat, we are able to pair up similar people most of the time and offset it pretty well. Also factoring in that we have a fixed weight pilot in the front left and a fixed weight safety officer in the back right, the effect of the weight difference between shooter and observer is greatly minimized. Weight difference in this aircraft also isn't as noticeable due to it's fairly narrow airframe, as opposed to a wider aircraft where a weight difference further out is greatly magnified. You keep asking questions like this and I'm going to have to break out some sort of technical manual or something! Bring it on! (I'm going to regret that!!!) |
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Quoted: Because the aircraft costs 3 times as much, and nearly twice as much to operate per hour as the much more cost effective Robinson helicopters that most hog hunters are using I was completely amazed to see that Helibacon thought that our prices were very low! (We are partnered with G and T outfitters, check out our sponsors page) I can't believe that we are somehow competitive in the market with twice the operating costs as most of the other people offering hog hunts with Robinson helicopters. The cost is $1,000 per person for a 2 person session. That is 3+ hours of hunting for a total of $2,000. Broken down that works out to about $667 an hour of flight time, not sure how that compares with other people. I wouldn't personally suggest that the MD-500 is a "Safer" aircraft as the Robinsons are an exceptionally safe aircraft, but I do believe the MD-500's performance envelope does far exceed the Robinsons, which means you can do more with it while remaining within it's safe flight parameters. I do however think that a lot of the MD500 helicopters performance won't be realized in the average hog hunting session (I can't imagine a backflip/loop would be of any use on a hog hunt unless the hogs armed themselves with SAMS!!!) Re: Pricing I would guess it'll be insurance. Our commercial pilot has 5000+ hours of commercial hours, and that was what our insurance costs were based on (The broker asked experience, hours, operations etc). Your guy has over twice that, so I'd bet it massively lowers the cost! 13K hours is an amazing amount of experience. I'd love to be able to operate an MD-500, but at this point, we don't have a 'need' for it. Re: Tannerite. According to the ATF it's simply not legal and they are committing a felony if they are conducting a business whereby they collect payment in exchange for the use of explosives (and shooting at them counts apparently). I can only parrot what our ATF investigator says. That said, they won't show up on any ATF radar I'd bet. We do because of our other services such as the classes, and law enforcement training etc. We are in fact the only people in the USA that offer (or could offer) those classes because of our demo range and other explosives business. Hence I think we are top of 'look into this' lists. Last time I checked the best safety record of any helicopter in current operation was with the Robinsons, and they are the most common too. But in terms of having something with amazing performance, that is spacious, and importantly also has lots of mount points for cool stuff, then the 500 is amazing and I want one. The fact the MD-500 is a military aircraft probably contributes 99% of its statistics in terms of falling out of the sky (after being shot at by a rocket etc). If you are a customer looking to participate in aerial hunting or marksmanship the key is just to ensure you are not flying in a 2 seater robinson, those things have way too little power for hovering over trees etc. Glad to see other people entering this market, its such an exciting thing that I'd love it to be on everyones bucket list and we all have a good time. |
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You keep asking questions like this and I'm going to have to break out some sort of technical manual or something! Bring it on! (I'm going to regret that!!!) I knew it was you, Jeremy, when you responded...  Anyway, what is the wet cost to operate your MD-500? My buddy estimates ~$650 per hr for his... which is a lot less than the $2200 my other buddy charges for his own UH-1...
With its 64 gallon fuel capacity, you probably get ~2 hrs before you have to top off, right? So will you have a mobile refueling truck onsite at your venue, or where is the nearest FBO? |
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I knew it was you, Jeremy, when you responded... Anyway, what is the wet cost to operate your MD-500? My buddy estimates ~$650 per hr for his... which is a lot less than the $2200 my other buddy charges for his own UH-1...
With its 64 gallon fuel capacity, you probably get ~2 hrs before you have to top off, right? So will you have a mobile refueling truck onsite at your venue, or where is the nearest FBO? Quoted:
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You keep asking questions like this and I'm going to have to break out some sort of technical manual or something! Bring it on! (I'm going to regret that!!!) I knew it was you, Jeremy, when you responded... Anyway, what is the wet cost to operate your MD-500? My buddy estimates ~$650 per hr for his... which is a lot less than the $2200 my other buddy charges for his own UH-1...
With its 64 gallon fuel capacity, you probably get ~2 hrs before you have to top off, right? So will you have a mobile refueling truck onsite at your venue, or where is the nearest FBO? Between $600-$700 an hour is about right, depending on application and other factors but I think $650 is a realistic ballpark. I'd love to get in a UH-1!!! Always been my favorite, just can't think of a practical application for one, YET!! We typically like to run about 1.5-1.75 hours before we fill up. We do have mobile refueling, it's simply more cost effective to drive fuel out no matter where it is, instead of having to return to an airport. We do our events in Temple about 10 miles (5 minutes by air) from the Temple airport where the aircraft is kept, this means we don't have to recoupe any transit costs basically :) When we do events further away we obviously have to build those costs into the ticket price. |
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Between $600-$700 an hour is about right, depending on application and other factors but I think $650 is a realistic ballpark. I'd love to get in a UH-1!!! Always been my favorite, just can't think of a practical application for one, YET!! We typically like to run about 1.5-1.75 hours before we fill up. We do have mobile refueling, it's simply more cost effective to drive fuel out no matter where it is, instead of having to return to an airport. We do our events in Temple about 10 miles (5 minutes by air) from the Temple airport where the aircraft is kept, this means we don't have to recoupe any transit costs basically :) When we do events further away we obviously have to build those costs into the ticket price. Quoted:
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You keep asking questions like this and I'm going to have to break out some sort of technical manual or something! Bring it on! (I'm going to regret that!!!) I knew it was you, Jeremy, when you responded... Anyway, what is the wet cost to operate your MD-500? My buddy estimates ~$650 per hr for his... which is a lot less than the $2200 my other buddy charges for his own UH-1...
With its 64 gallon fuel capacity, you probably get ~2 hrs before you have to top off, right? So will you have a mobile refueling truck onsite at your venue, or where is the nearest FBO? Between $600-$700 an hour is about right, depending on application and other factors but I think $650 is a realistic ballpark. I'd love to get in a UH-1!!! Always been my favorite, just can't think of a practical application for one, YET!! We typically like to run about 1.5-1.75 hours before we fill up. We do have mobile refueling, it's simply more cost effective to drive fuel out no matter where it is, instead of having to return to an airport. We do our events in Temple about 10 miles (5 minutes by air) from the Temple airport where the aircraft is kept, this means we don't have to recoupe any transit costs basically :) When we do events further away we obviously have to build those costs into the ticket price. Thanks for the reply, Jeremy. At how many knots, and what AGL, do you fly the Little Bird? How do you secure the shooter and rifle/magazines to the ship? BTW, SGM Kyle Lamb (ret) joined us to aerial hog hunt from the UH-1 in north Texas last March 2012; we had 10 on board the ship (2 pilots, 3 videographers /cameramen and 5 shooters) and ended up only killing a single wild pig (which must have been one of the most expensive feral hogs killed!). We later also used the UH-1 with both an M134 minigun and an M60E4 to support a Hollywood production company film an online energy drink contest advertisement at the Cawthon Cartridge Club last Fall 2012... |
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Thanks for the reply, Jeremy. At how many knots, and what AGL, do you fly the Little Bird? How do you secure the shooter and rifle/magazines to the ship? BTW, SGM Kyle Lamb (ret) joined us to aerial hog hunt from the UH-1 in north Texas last March 2012; we had 10 on board the ship (2 pilots, 3 videographers /cameramen and 5 shooters) and ended up only killing a single wild pig (which must have been one of the most expensive feral hogs killed!). We later also used the UH-1 with both an M134 minigun and an M60E4 to support a Hollywood production company film an online energy drink contest advertisement at the Cawthon Cartridge Club last Fall 2012... Quoted:
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You keep asking questions like this and I'm going to have to break out some sort of technical manual or something! Bring it on! (I'm going to regret that!!!) I knew it was you, Jeremy, when you responded... Anyway, what is the wet cost to operate your MD-500? My buddy estimates ~$650 per hr for his... which is a lot less than the $2200 my other buddy charges for his own UH-1...
With its 64 gallon fuel capacity, you probably get ~2 hrs before you have to top off, right? So will you have a mobile refueling truck onsite at your venue, or where is the nearest FBO? Between $600-$700 an hour is about right, depending on application and other factors but I think $650 is a realistic ballpark. I'd love to get in a UH-1!!! Always been my favorite, just can't think of a practical application for one, YET!! We typically like to run about 1.5-1.75 hours before we fill up. We do have mobile refueling, it's simply more cost effective to drive fuel out no matter where it is, instead of having to return to an airport. We do our events in Temple about 10 miles (5 minutes by air) from the Temple airport where the aircraft is kept, this means we don't have to recoupe any transit costs basically :) When we do events further away we obviously have to build those costs into the ticket price. Thanks for the reply, Jeremy. At how many knots, and what AGL, do you fly the Little Bird? How do you secure the shooter and rifle/magazines to the ship? BTW, SGM Kyle Lamb (ret) joined us to aerial hog hunt from the UH-1 in north Texas last March 2012; we had 10 on board the ship (2 pilots, 3 videographers /cameramen and 5 shooters) and ended up only killing a single wild pig (which must have been one of the most expensive feral hogs killed!). We later also used the UH-1 with both an M134 minigun and an M60E4 to support a Hollywood production company film an online energy drink contest advertisement at the Cawthon Cartridge Club last Fall 2012... We vary the speed and altitude on each pass, typically between 15-40 knots, and 20-80 feet AGL. The shooter is secured with a British gunners belt (has two locking clasps that cannot be accidentally undone with inadvertant movement like all the other ones I've seen with a latch.) Rifle with a regular sling, and magazines get stored in a high tech, fancy... seat back compartment in front of the shooter! That poor hog had it coming clearly!!! Keep me posted if you use that UH-1 for anything else, I'd be happy to help promote/advertise, bring full auto's, film crew or provide dead weight anytime! |
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We vary the speed and altitude on each pass, typically between 15-40 knots, and 20-80 feet AGL. The shooter is secured with a British gunners belt (has two locking clasps that cannot be accidentally undone with inadvertent movement like all the other ones I've seen with a latch.) Rifle with a regular sling, and magazines get stored in a high tech, fancy... seat back compartment in front of the shooter! That poor hog had it coming clearly!!! Keep me posted if you use that UH-1 for anything else, I'd be happy to help promote/advertise, bring full auto's, film crew or provide dead weight anytime! Quoted:
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You keep asking questions like this and I'm going to have to break out some sort of technical manual or something! Bring it on! (I'm going to regret that!!!) I knew it was you, Jeremy, when you responded... Anyway, what is the wet cost to operate your MD-500? My buddy estimates ~$650 per hr for his... which is a lot less than the $2200 my other buddy charges for his own UH-1...
With its 64 gallon fuel capacity, you probably get ~2 hrs before you have to top off, right? So will you have a mobile refueling truck onsite at your venue, or where is the nearest FBO? Between $600-$700 an hour is about right, depending on application and other factors but I think $650 is a realistic ballpark. I'd love to get in a UH-1!!! Always been my favorite, just can't think of a practical application for one, YET!! We typically like to run about 1.5-1.75 hours before we fill up. We do have mobile refueling, it's simply more cost effective to drive fuel out no matter where it is, instead of having to return to an airport. We do our events in Temple about 10 miles (5 minutes by air) from the Temple airport where the aircraft is kept, this means we don't have to recoupe any transit costs basically :) When we do events further away we obviously have to build those costs into the ticket price. Thanks for the reply, Jeremy. At how many knots, and what AGL, do you fly the Little Bird? How do you secure the shooter and rifle/magazines to the ship? BTW, SGM Kyle Lamb (ret) joined us to aerial hog hunt from the UH-1 in north Texas last March 2012; we had 10 on board the ship (2 pilots, 3 videographers /cameramen and 5 shooters) and ended up only killing a single wild pig (which must have been one of the most expensive feral hogs killed!). We later also used the UH-1 with both an M134 minigun and an M60E4 to support a Hollywood production company film an online energy drink contest advertisement at the Cawthon Cartridge Club last Fall 2012... We vary the speed and altitude on each pass, typically between 15-40 knots, and 20-80 feet AGL. The shooter is secured with a British gunners belt (has two locking clasps that cannot be accidentally undone with inadvertent movement like all the other ones I've seen with a latch.) Rifle with a regular sling, and magazines get stored in a high tech, fancy... seat back compartment in front of the shooter! That poor hog had it coming clearly!!! Keep me posted if you use that UH-1 for anything else, I'd be happy to help promote/advertise, bring full auto's, film crew or provide dead weight anytime! Do you feel the need for brass catchers to keep empty cases out of the tail rotor? Have you ever flown with Gregg B in Midland (he has two UH-1s and a Cobra)? |
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I would be expending rounds at much greater pace 
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