Posted: 1/18/2012 11:29:26 AM EDT
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Hi all,
I recently sold 3 guns using the texas gun trader website, I did not do a bill of sale because guys just don't want to, but I wrote down their veichile license plate numbers. Any friendly LE officer here willing to run the plate numbers to provide me with a full name, address and dl numbers? Appreciate any help. |
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I just want the information for my records, that way I know who I sold the gun to, All I have is just a first name and phone number, and license plate number. I should have done a bill of sale but I was naive and stupid. It may seem that I am being paranoid here but I just want to have a clear conscience. |
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I just want the information for my records, that way I know who I sold the gun to, All I have is just a first name and phone number, and license plate number. I should have done a bill of sale but I was naive and stupid. It may seem that I am being paranoid here but I just want to have a clear conscience. What was naive or stupid about not having done a bill of sale? There are no legal requirements for you to do so. There are no legal requirements for you to keep any sort of records. Unless you have some reason to believe the people you sold to were not legally allowed to buy then there is no reason why your conscience should not be clear because you broke no law. |
| I understand why you want the info but if an officer does what you ask is violating the law and probably his department policy as well. It might not get him arrested but it sure could get him fired. Just keep what you have. As I understand the law, you are not required to keep records of firearms sales unless you are an FFL. |
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I understand why you want the info but if an officer does what you ask is violating the law and probably his department policy as well. It might not get him arrested but it sure could get him fired. Just keep what you have. As I understand the law, you are not required to keep records of firearms sales unless you are an FFL. <––––FFL Correct. Enjoy the freedom you have to NOT keep records. |
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I just want the information for my records, that way I know who I sold the gun to, All I have is just a first name and phone number, and license plate number. I should have done a bill of sale but I was naive and stupid. It may seem that I am being paranoid here but I just want to have a clear conscience. You don't need a name and phone number even. While you are wanting a clear conscience, you are asking a LEO to break the law for you your clear conscience. |
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Quoted: I just want the information for my records, that way I know who I sold the gun to, All I have is just a first name and phone number, and license plate number. I should have done a bill of sale but I was naive and stupid. It may seem that I am being paranoid here but I just want to have a clear conscience. Naive and stupid was recording any info at all. Just throw away whatever you have and forget about it. Next time you want a paper trail of who you sold it to, sell your gun through an FFL. I do not see how having more info on the guy than you already have clears your conscience, unless you think he was a prohibited person and are now trying to do a retro-active background check, which will only land YOU in trouble. |
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So, how long have you worked for IA? :D
Just keep a record of the plates. Bad news bears time, just because someone is driving a car does not mean that it is registered to them, their car or can in anyway lead you to their personal info. If you feel comfortable having their info on a bill of sale, I think it is appropriate to push the issue and get it done up front and in the light instead of after the fact and behind their back sort of deal. If you want to sell someone a gun and they don't want to give you their name, does that make you comfortable? I would think a gut reaction would be that this is a bad guy to sell a gun to. Good luck and hopefully no one busts your chops too bad on this. |
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So, how long have you worked for IA? :D Just keep a record of the plates. Bad news bears time, just because someone is driving a car does not mean that it is registered to them, their car or can in anyway lead you to their personal info. If you feel comfortable having their info on a bill of sale, I think it is appropriate to push the issue and get it done up front and in the light instead of after the fact and behind their back sort of deal. If you want to sell someone a gun and they don't want to give you their name, does that make you comfortable? I would think a gut reaction would be that this is a bad guy to sell a gun to. So I am a bad guy to sell a gun to? |
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Hi all, I recently sold 3 guns using the texas gun trader website, I did not do a bill of sale because guys just don't want to, but I wrote down their veichile license plate numbers. Any friendly LE officer here willing to run the plate numbers to provide me with a full name, address and dl numbers? Appreciate any help. So how is IA....uh I mean professional standards? Maybe you work for the FBI though 
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| If you are the "owner of record", ie, you bought through a dealer and filled out a 4473 (think that is it) form and sell without recording buyers info and the gun is later used in a crime, guess where the trace ends? Better have a good alibi! This actually happened to a friend who sold privately at a gun show and was then the tail end of a trace. Stupidity is not recording info on the buyer. |
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Quoted: If you are the "owner of record", ie, you bought through a dealer and filled out a 4473 (think that is it) form and sell without recording buyers info and the gun is later used in a crime, guess where the trace ends? Better have a good alibi! This actually happened to a friend who sold privately at a gun show and was then the tail end of a trace. Usually ends with a 30 second phone call from BATFE where you tell them you legally sold it to an unknown party, if they can even find you, which is not likely as time goes buy. No big deal. Been there, done that. Quoted: Stupidity is not recording info on the buyer. Stupid is giving personal information you would not post on this forum to a complete stranger. |
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If you are the "owner of record", ie, you bought through a dealer and filled out a 4473 (think that is it) form and sell without recording buyers info and the gun is later used in a crime, guess where the trace ends? Better have a good alibi! This actually happened to a friend who sold privately at a gun show and was then the tail end of a trace. Stupidity is not recording info on the buyer. That is ridiculous. Having once owned a gun (there is no such thing as a "owner of record" ) is not PC of ANY crime. Unless there is some evidence linking you to a crime all the police will do is ask if you know where the gun is. |
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If you are the "owner of record", ie, you bought through a dealer and filled out a 4473 (think that is it) form and sell without recording buyers info and the gun is later used in a crime, guess where the trace ends? Better have a good alibi! This actually happened to a friend who sold privately at a gun show and was then the tail end of a trace. Stupidity is not recording info on the buyer. That is ridiculous. Having once owned a gun (there is no such thing as a "owner of record" ) is not PC of ANY crime. Unless there is some evidence linking you to a crime all the police will do is ask if you know where the gun is. Shhhhhh, don't tell him about how all new firearms are imbedded with nanobots that have micro RDIF chips. From the second you touch any firearm made after 2000, or handle an older firearm that has been back to the factory for repairs - you are electronically tagged for the next 9-10 years (which is about how long it takes for the nanobots internal power supply to deplete so that they let go of your skin). Rumor is that a decent electric shock (like from a taser or a Van der Graaff generator) will fry them... 
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Hi all, I recently sold 3 guns using the texas gun trader website, I did not do a bill of sale because guys just don't want to, but I wrote down their veichile license plate numbers. Any friendly LE officer here willing to run the plate numbers to provide me with a full name, address and dl numbers? Appreciate any help. 
Prove you sold the gun. How do we know your not wanting to stalk some honey that drove by? If your not an FFL, you don't need a bill of sale. |
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Just keep it in your records in case you ever need it for LE if you want. No one should be willing to look it up and give you the info. Maybe you should not sell guns if they are not going to give you their information Dense, much? I was referring to his request to run a license plate and give him the registered owner's name address and dl. No one with access to those records should be willing to do that for the OP. I'm not going to, but feel free if you want to. |
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Once you find that LEO, ask him to run serial numbers on your future gun purchases. Regarding your original question, I think publicdata.com is still out there. For about $25 you can stalk just about anybody. There's actually nothing against the law for running future purchased firearms, goods, vehicles, etc that have serial numbers. Our agency will run an item, and simply let the person know if it's stolen or not, nothing further. No one with the ability is gonna run any tag for you, and you don't need to worry about them using that gun in a crime then getting in trouble. Sleep easy friend, you're in the clear. |
| Your license registration is public information, it is far from top secret. You can run plates, TDL's and more from a cell phone. LEO using their position to provide you the information is another thing. I run any used firearm I buy through the local PD, better safe than sorry. As for private sales, bring your CHL or stay home. Yeah, that may not be the law but if it is my sale, my rules. |
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Once you find that LEO, ask him to run serial numbers on your future gun purchases. Regarding your original question, I think publicdata.com is still out there. For about $25 you can stalk just about anybody. There's actually nothing against the law for running future purchased firearms, goods, vehicles, etc that have serial numbers. Our agency will run an item, and simply let the person know if it's stolen or not, nothing further. No one with the ability is gonna run any tag for you, and you don't need to worry about them using that gun in a crime then getting in trouble. Sleep easy friend, you're in the clear. What would your agency do if the SN comes up stolen? Are you required to follow-up? |
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So, how long have you worked for IA? :D Just keep a record of the plates. Bad news bears time, just because someone is driving a car does not mean that it is registered to them, their car or can in anyway lead you to their personal info. If you feel comfortable having their info on a bill of sale, I think it is appropriate to push the issue and get it done up front and in the light instead of after the fact and behind their back sort of deal. If you want to sell someone a gun and they don't want to give you their name, does that make you comfortable? I would think a gut reaction would be that this is a bad guy to sell a gun to. So I am a bad guy to sell a gun to? Ever watch the Simpsons? "When do we get the freaking guns!?" - Recruit "I told you, you don't get your gun till I get your name..." - Wiggham "I've had it up to hear with your freaking 'Rules' man!" - Recruit I don't care what I am selling, I like to know the person's name, that's just me. If they don't want to tell me their name, take a walk and I will sell to someone else. I wouldn't sell it anyways and then try to retroactively do a check on them or get their info. But this being the internet, there's always the strong possibility this is just a stalking thing. . . haha JK op, sure you are on the up and up. |
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Attempt to locate the property/person. It's more of a safeguard against someone receiving stolen property without their knowledge. Most people we get calling in for that are concerned, good citizens not wanting to get screwed over. We had a guy calling in about a vehicle on craigslist, wanted it checked, it came back stolen, we went, recovered it, arrested the guy trying to sell it.
Quote button fail :/ this is response for question posed what happens if property we run for folks comes back stolen. |
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Personally I ask to see a valid drivers license and explain that I will show mine as well.
No documentation, just proof they are up to date with DL and are a Texas resident. I will get the name, but that's it. I have only sold 3-4 guns over the years and have never had an issue with a buyer, but I tell them up front about my condidtions. |
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Once you find that LEO, ask him to run serial numbers on your future gun purchases. Regarding your original question, I think publicdata.com is still out there. For about $25 you can stalk just about anybody. Besides being illegal, I thought most LEOs are very reluctant to run plates or DLs because their system automatically (meaning they can't change or delete) records who and when the record is accessed. If the person turns out to be highly wanted, the LEO would have to explain why he didn't arrest the guy when he "had" him. Is this not true? |
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Any friendly LE officer here willing to run the plate numbers to provide me with a full name, address and dl numbers? Appreciate any help. Illegal, and a state jail Felony for any of us to do what you are asking. You will have to hire a private investigator who has access to the information through legal channels. |
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People who give their information to some random person selling them something are morons.
If you're a seller and expect everyone to just willingly provide you with that information because if they don't then they're obviously a bad guy then your'e even stupider. Hi random person that I met on the internet that might be selling me a stolen gun, let me give you my DL so you can get the number, my name, address, my DOB and why don't you note the vehicle I'm driving and the license plate number while I'm here!
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People who give their information to some random person selling them something are morons. If you're a seller and expect everyone to just willingly provide you with that information because if they don't then they're obviously a bad guy then your'e even stupider. Hi random person that I met on the internet that might be selling me a stolen gun, let me give you my DL so you can get the number, my name, address, my DOB and why don't you note the vehicle I'm driving and the license plate number while I'm here! Exactly. When I buy stuff off CL I normally park a little bit away and walk to the meeting spot so that they don't see what I'm driving... |
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not necessarily, in fact.... no not at all. Because LEO will often run a person that is known to be wanted or believed to be wanted to check on the warrant status, get the warrant information or for what ever other reason they have/need. Or also with stolen vehicles, and this happens more often than you would think, but when running vehicle plates, a stolen hit returns and you get excited then realize that you mistyped the plate when entering it.
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Once you find that LEO, ask him to run serial numbers on your future gun purchases. Regarding your original question, I think publicdata.com is still out there. For about $25 you can stalk just about anybody. Besides being illegal, I thought most LEOs are very reluctant to run plates or DLs because their system automatically (meaning they can't change or delete) records who and when the record is accessed. If the person turns out to be highly wanted, the LEO would have to explain why he didn't arrest the guy when he "had" him. Is this not true? it is illegal, as in lose your job over it and not be able to get hired on anywhere else type of illegal |
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People who give their information to some random person selling them something are morons. If you're a seller and expect everyone to just willingly provide you with that information because if they don't then they're obviously a bad guy then your'e even stupider. Hi random person that I met on the internet that might be selling me a stolen gun, let me give you my DL so you can get the number, my name, address, my DOB and why don't you note the vehicle I'm driving and the license plate number while I'm here! On the opposite side of the coin, your reluctance could make you appear like a straw/illegal buyer to the seller. Simple solution = Buyer and seller agree to mutual terms that are legal, if they cannot agree on the terms then oh well. Or everyone can run to the internet all butt hurt. I personally would only sell with no ID to someone I know to be good to go, otherwise have a CHL in hand or get ready for the 5 minute quickie background check via cell phone (like TXI some of us have nifty licenses and access). I'm sure this would absolutely piss off some here but I won't lose any sleep over it. Like I said, we all need to stay in our comfort zones and happy places. For the record I have only sold one firearm ever as I hate relinquishing them, collecting is far better! |
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On the opposite side of the coin, your reluctance could make you appear like a straw/illegal buyer to the seller. Simple solution = Buyer and seller agree to mutual terms that are legal, if they cannot agree on the terms then oh well. Or everyone can run to the internet all butt hurt. I personally would only sell with no ID to someone I know to be good to go, otherwise have a CHL in hand or get ready for the 5 minute quickie background check via cell phone (like TXI some of us have nifty licenses and access). I'm sure this would absolutely piss off some here but I won't lose any sleep over it. Like I said, we all need to stay in our comfort zones and happy places. For the record I have only sold one firearm ever as I hate relinquishing them, collecting is far better! I don't give a shit about what the seller thinks. I'm not there to please or make friends with the seller, I'm trying to buy something. You being paranoid is your own problem, don't try to drag me into your problem without saying something before hand so I know to avoid buying something from you. Other than that, you can impose whatever restrictions you want. |
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On the opposite side of the coin, your reluctance could make you appear like a straw/illegal buyer to the seller. Simple solution = Buyer and seller agree to mutual terms that are legal, if they cannot agree on the terms then oh well. Or everyone can run to the internet all butt hurt. I personally would only sell with no ID to someone I know to be good to go, otherwise have a CHL in hand or get ready for the 5 minute quickie background check via cell phone (like TXI some of us have nifty licenses and access). I'm sure this would absolutely piss off some here but I won't lose any sleep over it. Like I said, we all need to stay in our comfort zones and happy places. For the record I have only sold one firearm ever as I hate relinquishing them, collecting is far better! Geeez. Its a gun. Your not selling a human fetus. Do you go through all this to sell an old bicycle, table, or tools? This topic is another reason gun owners are our own worst enemy. Seriously, why argue over legislative prohibitions and data collections and the government, when we as ardent gun owners do exactly what we don't want big brother to do? Liability? Seriously? If that same gun is stolen from you by the same guy trying to buy it from you why are you any more liable? The gun grabbers have won when we gun owners fear to fart out loud because of liability concerns. So what if you sell a gun and it is used in a crime two weeks or two hours from now. Your not in the gun business. If your taking personal information when selling a gun you should have a FFL or give your gun to an FFL and let him make the transfer for you. Sell your guns to an FFL and let your conscience be clear. Irony would be if you got arrested for identity fraud because your in possession of my personal information. If I've just recently bought a gun from a stranger and they wanted all my info, and my identity all of a sudden stolen, guess who I'm gonna report as my primary suspect to the police. The nutcase who sold me a gun and HAD to have my personal information. And while were being all paranoid, (aka typical gun owner) don't forget about your gun grabbing DA or ATF agent who may decide your selling guns without an FFL because your demanding information only a licensed gun dealer would require. Sure you may win the case, but you get the fun time and expense continuously explaining your overzealous actions. |
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I don't give a shit about what the seller thinks. I'm not there to please or make friends with the seller, I'm trying to buy something. You being paranoid is your own problem, don't try to drag me into your problem without saying something before hand so I know to avoid buying something from you. Other than that, you can impose whatever restrictions you want. I somewhat agree with you: I don't give a shit what the buyer thinks. Terms of a sale should always be arranged prior. Quoted:
Geeez. Its a gun. Your not selling a human fetus. Do you go through all this to sell an old bicycle, table, or tools? This topic is another reason gun owners are our own worst enemy. Irony would be if you got arrested for identity fraud because your in possession of my personal information. Yes, it is a gun and seller is supposed to sell to someone they believe is legally eligible to purchase said gun. Flashing a CHL ensures you are a resident of the state and have passed a background. Bicycles, etc... have no legal restriction on the buyer, firearms do. I do agree partially though, some gun owners are our worse enemies. Take that with a grain of salt. Irony would be that I wouldn't be arrested at all. ::Sniff-sniff:: DPPA has several exceptions as to which I qualify, and accessing your information under DPPA to prevent fraud or possible fraud is authorized. Nobody said they want to start a dossier on anyone, just flash a photo ID. If you are fine with handing over a firearm because some flashes some cash, you don't find that at all lax? So just how did you decide the buyer was a resident of the state and legally able to purchase a firearm? Despite what you claim, cash is not the only requirement. Again terms of a sale should always be arranged in advance. If terms are not adequate to both side, no harm, no foul. OR YOU CAN SHOW UP ON ARFCOM AND BITCH BECAUSE YOUR PANTIES ARE TOO TIGHT. |
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I don't give a shit about what the seller thinks. I'm not there to please or make friends with the seller, I'm trying to buy something. You being paranoid is your own problem, don't try to drag me into your problem without saying something before hand so I know to avoid buying something from you. Other than that, you can impose whatever restrictions you want. I somewhat agree with you: I don't give a shit what the buyer thinks. Terms of a sale should always be arranged prior. Quoted:
Geeez. Its a gun. Your not selling a human fetus. Do you go through all this to sell an old bicycle, table, or tools? This topic is another reason gun owners are our own worst enemy. Irony would be if you got arrested for identity fraud because your in possession of my personal information. Yes, it is a gun and seller is supposed to sell to someone they believe is legally eligible to purchase said gun. Flashing a CHL ensures you are a resident of the state and have passed a background. Bicycles, etc... have no legal restriction on the buyer, firearms do. I do agree partially though, some gun owners are our worse enemies. Take that with a grain of salt. Irony would be that I wouldn't be arrested at all. ::Sniff-sniff:: DPPA has several exceptions as to which I qualify, and accessing your information under DPPA to prevent fraud or possible fraud is authorized. Nobody said they want to start a dossier on anyone, just flash a photo ID. If you are fine with handing over a firearm because some flashes some cash, you don't find that at all lax? So just how did you decide the buyer was a resident of the state and legally able to purchase a firearm? Despite what you claim, cash is not the only requirement. Again terms of a sale should always be arranged in advance. If terms are not adequate to both side, no harm, no foul. OR YOU CAN SHOW UP ON ARFCOM AND BITCH BECAUSE YOUR PANTIES ARE TOO TIGHT. I do not have to know anything. Federal law requires I not knowingly sell to a person who is not eligible. |
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I don't give a shit about what the seller thinks. I'm not there to please or make friends with the seller, I'm trying to buy something. You being paranoid is your own problem, don't try to drag me into your problem without saying something before hand so I know to avoid buying something from you. Other than that, you can impose whatever restrictions you want. I somewhat agree with you: I don't give a shit what the buyer thinks. Terms of a sale should always be arranged prior. Quoted:
Geeez. Its a gun. Your not selling a human fetus. Do you go through all this to sell an old bicycle, table, or tools? This topic is another reason gun owners are our own worst enemy. Irony would be if you got arrested for identity fraud because your in possession of my personal information. Yes, it is a gun and seller is supposed to sell to someone they believe is legally eligible to purchase said gun. Flashing a CHL ensures you are a resident of the state and have passed a background. Bicycles, etc... have no legal restriction on the buyer, firearms do. I do agree partially though, some gun owners are our worse enemies. Take that with a grain of salt. Irony would be that I wouldn't be arrested at all. ::Sniff-sniff:: DPPA has several exceptions as to which I qualify, and accessing your information under DPPA to prevent fraud or possible fraud is authorized. Nobody said they want to start a dossier on anyone, just flash a photo ID. If you are fine with handing over a firearm because some flashes some cash, you don't find that at all lax? So just how did you decide the buyer was a resident of the state and legally able to purchase a firearm? Despite what you claim, cash is not the only requirement. Again terms of a sale should always be arranged in advance. If terms are not adequate to both side, no harm, no foul. OR YOU CAN SHOW UP ON ARFCOM AND BITCH BECAUSE YOUR PANTIES ARE TOO TIGHT. You've got it completely back-@$$wards. The seller DOES NOT need to know the buyer is a resident and legally able to purchase a firearm. That's right. They only need to not have a reason to suspect that the buyer isn't a resident or is somehow prohibited. That is a completely completely different standard. As long as the buyer doesn't seem to be an illegal (like they speak unaccented English) and they don't look like a gang-banger, and they don't make any incriminating statements, then the seller really doesn't have any reason to suspect it might not be legal to sell to them. The seller IS NOT REQUIRED to ask any questions, to ask for ID, or anything else if they don't have any other reason to believe the buyer might be prohibited. The people who's panties are on too tight are the ones who think they need to go WAY BEYOND the relatively reasonable requirements of the law here in Texas. This isn't some fscking blue state where everyone is assumed to be guilty until proven innocent. We still believe in the constitution and bill of rights around here, and that they are the supreme law of the land, don't we? |
| Had two litters of Golden Retrievers puppies over the last couple of years. When we got ready to sell them, I priced them to weed out the idiots. Then I put prospective buyers through their paces: family makeup, previous dog experience, how they plan to integrate the dog into their household, etc. Then I would watch them interact with the puppies and my adult dogs. Had one rich idiot drive up from Sugarland with his little boy. All he would talk about was how he wanted a lab but his wife told him to get a Golden. I convinced him that if he wanted a Lab he ought to get a lab and sent him home to a wife that I figure wasn't going to be a happy camper. My dogs are valued members of the family and I wasn't about to let their puppies go to somebody that wasn't suitable. If the buyer didn't like my conditions - well there was always other buyers who wanted a quality dog. |
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Had two litters of Golden Retrievers puppies over the last couple of years. When we got ready to sell them, I priced them to weed out the idiots. Then I put prospective buyers through their paces: family makeup, previous dog experience, how they plan to integrate the dog into their household, etc. Then I would watch them interact with the puppies and my adult dogs. Had one rich idiot drive up from Sugarland with his little boy. All he would talk about was how he wanted a lab but his wife told him to get a Golden. I convinced him that if he wanted a Lab he ought to get a lab and sent him home to a wife that I figure wasn't going to be a happy camper. My dogs are valued members of the family and I wasn't about to let their puppies go to somebody that wasn't suitable. If the buyer didn't like my conditions - well there was always other buyers who wanted a quality dog. Well you don't want to sell me one of your guns then cause I'm gonna use and abuse it like a Michael Vick pit. 
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Quoted: Quoted: People who give their information to some random person selling them something are morons. If you're a seller and expect everyone to just willingly provide you with that information because if they don't then they're obviously a bad guy then your'e even stupider. Hi random person that I met on the internet that might be selling me a stolen gun, let me give you my DL so you can get the number, my name, address, my DOB and why don't you note the vehicle I'm driving and the license plate number while I'm here! On the opposite side of the coin, your reluctance could make you appear like a straw/illegal buyer to the seller. Simple solution = Buyer and seller agree to mutual terms that are legal, if they cannot agree on the terms then oh well. Or everyone can run to the internet all butt hurt. I personally would only sell with no ID to someone I know to be good to go, otherwise have a CHL in hand or get ready for the 5 minute quickie background check via cell phone (like TXI some of us have nifty licenses and access). I'm sure this would absolutely piss off some here but I won't lose any sleep over it. Like I said, we all need to stay in our comfort zones and happy places. For the record I have only sold one firearm ever as I hate relinquishing them, collecting is far better! I'd tell anyone who wanted my ID to go fuck themselves. It isnt required, it doesnt protect you, and you have no just cause to ask for it, except to further along some fantasy that it keeps you from being involved if the weapon is used in a crime down the road. It's all a cooked up fantasy and you people who continue this paper trail bullshit are the ones who happily and willingly surrender rights for what seems like "the right thing to do". Of course, you as the seller can do whatever you want.... just like we as the buyer can say piss off. |