[ARCHIVED THREAD] - MAST Advanced Combined Training (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/21/2008 7:39:18 PM EDT
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Over the past year, I have had the privilege of training many times with MAST in a group setting as well as regularly scheduled private lessons. Each has crucial aspects that cannot be had anywhere else. To appreciate team tactics and camaraderie, you must train with a group. To master the basics (and I hate to use the term "master", because to me that is unobtainable and one only moves toward that goal without ever truly achieving) or move to advanced techniques sometimes, individualized instruction is the only way to really get the concept. I've seen many guys discuss training on this forum and balk at the cost or time commitment. I am a father of 2 young girls under the age of 5 and time is very valuable. Money doesn't grow on trees either, but if you,once, just once, get involved with the guys at MAST, you will not regret it and you will kick yourself for not doing it sooner. I used to think I could handle myself and my weapon, but looking back, I was only fooling myself and putting myself and my family in danger because of my lack of professional training. Let's face it, shooting is one aspect. The bigger aspect is situational thinking and rule #1, the best way to survive a fight is not put yourself in a position to be in a fight. In early April, I had the distinct pleasure of two full days of private training in what can only be termed "advanced combined". At the end of the second 10 hour day we had tallied: dizziness, vomiting, disorientation, slight concussion, bruises, minor cuts, one scalp wound, general soreness, 750 rounds of pistol ammo, 150 rounds of shotgun, lots of Airsoft pellets, one failed shotgun(which was summarily tossed to the gound in disgust) , and most of all one huge leap forward in understanding of combat mentality, the impact of physical stress, and gun/non gun techniques. I could not be more thrilled to be involved with MAST. Always safe, always humbling, always enlightening, always real world. MB - you ROCK. (but if you make me spin in circles again I will have to cap you in the knee......)  As I keep saying: Get trained, or sell your weapons and be a sheep.... |
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I am really concerned with posts like this. I am not trying to flame you or harm your thread but there is something wrong with a lot of what you are saying. I know you think mast is cool and they do have a lot to offer but there is a great big world out their full of instructors and I think come of your comments are short sighted. 
The basics are the basics. The guys at mast were taught by older wiser men who were themselves taught by even older men. We have been shooting guns for the last 500 years and every generation has a slightly new take on the dogma of the previous one. For instance Jerry Miculek’s revolver grip looks like Bill Jordan’s (the gun fighter not the buffoon on TV).
You really should believe you can master the basics of gun handling. Things like platform, sight alignment/trigger control and MF drills should be as natural and automatic as driving a car. if they are not you are being short changed by your instructors. Advanced techniques and team tactics are fun and it’s easy to sell classes but the basics are what win gun fights. IDPA does not teach it, instructors can only touch on it but you as an individual must expend the 2000 or so rounds over months to master the basics.
In that we can agree. Shooting is the last thing you want to do in a confrontation. Proper self defense is not turning a situation into a gunfight. If you train like a carpenter with a hammer who is looking for the next nail to hit your are not training for the real world. In the real world you will talk to far more “nails” than you will ever have to hit”.
Being able to push a student to the point of “dizziness, vomiting, disorientation” is not a hallmark of a good instructor. It’s not something to be proud of. A good instructor teaches you safely and with enough force to maximize learning. The armys AIT takes how many weeks? Tier one schools have one week programs, because every day you learn the basics and then build on them. I can make you run up and down a berm untill you throw up and then try to teach you to shoot but you won’t retain that information. Technique will go out the window and groups will be larger. A good instructor will want you to be like a surgeon with a scalpel dissecting problems and not like a barbarian with a battle axe hacking and chopping.
They got you to spin in circles to make you dizzy and then you tried to shoot? Oh my.
In the end tactical shooting is becoming a martial art. Jeff Cooper, Clint Smith Giles Stock, Pat Rodgers and a lot of others all had a lot to teach me. But each of their styles was different enough that I walked away with a new perspective each time. One technique was not better than another. Their philosophy was try my way out for a week and then choose for yourself what works. Always keep my way in your “tool box”. You may have to pull it out and it might save your life. So yea I agree with you. Get instruction but get it from a lot of instructors. Some you will love, some hate and some are so cool they shit ice cubes. In the end evaluate what you have learned in the quiet of your own home and choose for yourself what the “path” is. |
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Thanks for your 2 cents. It appears that you have a great deal of time for that, with a free account and nearly 6 posts per day. You are indeed entitled to your opinion, but for others that read this post later, please do share your background and training so readers can evaluate your qualifications for your opinions. For those who read this later and get confused with the statements over "mastering the basics" , let me be perfectly clear. My assertion that one never masters the basics means that the basics are precisely what one must continue to practice no matter what level of training one attains. No matter how many high speed, low drag, ninja drills you master it is most important to reinforce the basics: grip, stance, trigger prep and control, as well as sight alignment. You never "master" that in the sense that it always needs to be practiced. 'Nuff on that part. I shoot, on average, about 1,000 rounds a month, so I would say that I get a fair amount of practice. I don't polish my guns and surf the net looking to pick a fight. I am not MIL/LEO, but the skills I've been able to learn stack up nicely against some of them. (EINSTIEN, no offense meant here, and thank you for your service) Skills are not the exclusive domain of MIL/LEO. Most people either don't have the money or are not willing to dedicate the time to train. I respect and honor those that put their lives on the line for us every day, and would never dishonor them, but they won't be there when some crack monster decides to threaten me or my family, or heaven forbid, some extremist goes on a rampage here. No one understands their limitations unless they attempt to reach them. If that means physical exertion to the point of puking or getting dizzy combined with mental stress, that must be done in practice before you are put in a situation to need those skills and make the wrong decision about your capabilities in a life or death situation. Inevitably in any hand to hand practice, slips happen and people get roughed up a bit, so yes. At the end of a couple of days, there are some sore muscles and bruises and scrapes. We'd love to have you come out to a Level II class if you want to show us some skills. If you don't think the training was worth it and you blow through all the drills, I'll pay for your tuition. |
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For one you can't make me do jack shit nothing I don't want to do. I am one hard headed mother f*cker who will take a bullet to prove a point. Advanced Combined Training takes an individual determination to stick to what the instructors are trying to teach them. If you have never PT'ed until you blew chunks then you have never been pushed to you limits and knowing those limits can save your ass in a fight. | No offense taken and my statement about being MIL/LEO was not meant to come across condescending nor offensive to those that aren't. There are a lot of civilian shooters that are head and shoulders better than the best shooters in my unit. I have no doubt in that fact. I was just curious to know about HK940's background since he seemed to have a strong opinion on what seperates a good instructor from one that isn't. I was defending MAST from someone who publicly criticized them without even attending one of their classes. |
i am not going to get into an argument with you guys about certs and post counts and we can all drop trou and see who is bigger but it really does not matter. but i will try to answer some of your questions.
i would say that "crucial aspects... can be had" at any reputable shooting school. when you are teaching gun handeling skills you can add stress. sometimes a lot. maybe even a bit too much to be 100% safe but never so much that the training is over the line and unsafe. clearly a dizzy staggering student with a hot rifle would fall over the line. i am saying it should be the objective of the instructor to teach accuracy. each bullet has a lawyer attaced to it and only hits count. you have to shoot like a surgeon. head shots should be aimed at the Medulla oblongata. not the eyes. Spetznaz are known for throwing shovels not an axes.
done it. yawn. no armor, 20 sets and it was a M21. it does get your heart rate up but i was under my own control and therefore safe. and that is my point. train and shoot safe and under control. i think we are all agreeing so there does not seem to be any real argument over and above the usual ARfcom chest beating. |
I think you are wrong. What you have effectively done is accuse MAST of being unsafe in the training environment without having ever seen it your self. MAST keeps range safety officers on staff in order to keep all evolutions safe for the shooter and the entire class. Any time a drill such as making a student dizzy and then making them shoot is done it is one student at a time and personnel are standing right next to them to make sure that all weapons stay pointed down range. |
down range? just a couple degrees of elevation and you are up and over most berms. safe and dizzy shooting? |
Maybe hk940 is right, even without first hand knowledge of the program. I'm obviously impaired, incompetent, dangerous, and MB at MAST can't trust me (after hundreds of hours of training me, yawn.) to not take the shot if I can't gather enough of my faculties to see whether my aim is true and press of the shot ( I never mastered the basics, remember?) See definition of advanced. MAST won't run Level II drills with newbies off the street, armchair commandos or anyone who has not already proved that they know not to take stupid chances. hk940, I am advocating safe effective training for all responsible gun owners - on a regular and frequent basis. MAST happens to be very accessible and local as well as IMO very good. How many people can take off a week or two to go to AZ to train? What is better? Go to some Mecca for training once a year, or get solid training on a regular basis? Those "named" schools are great (many of the MAST guys have been there too) but they are not accessible regularly for most people and, as you pointed out, knowledge is not limited to only their domain. MIL/LEO style training is taught because it is battle proven and effective, especially when mixed with a healthy dose of street smart common sense for non MIL/LEO people. This ain't about chest beating, or comparing parts of our anatomy. It is about making sure you have tasted the goods before you talk smack. Be honest with your self. You're talking a lot of smack for not having participated. Offer still stands. I'll pay your tuition. If you yawn at the end of the day from boredom, I'll buy your ammo too. |
Dude, you're a green beret? which one are you? |
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hk90 you missed a few thing from the first post before you started in. The part about "private" training ,"advanced" combine and in general personally advancing. Those who are great always push themselves in the things they do. Be it sports , school,work or shooting. Its about personal commitment I started a new job last week involving firarms with a well established company and today the firearms instructor told us that "I will take your body places your mind never thought it could go". I am willing to train at that level and its ok if your not because there are plenty of stong men that has Americans backs when needed so others can sit by and bash things they don't know about or understand. As far as safely training with MAST at any and all levels they have trained me at I have never experience any unsafe training but I have only taken 4 group training classes and several private lessons with them. along with several other classes from various training groups and organizations. So I may not know much about safty and training. oh by the way,I will buy your lunch if you can keep up and keep it down. 
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by the way a couple degrees with a 30 inch carbine out to about 50 meters would just about make a gut shot into well a gut shot so wtf are you talking about???? |
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I've been away from my computer for a few days and just now read all these posts. I felt like I needed to add my own two cents to this. I've been associating with the MAST instructors for a few years now and have never seen them put any student in a dangerous situation. In fact, I've seen them come down pretty hard on students when they do anything unsafe. Every set of skills they teach is gone over until everyone understands what and why they are doing it. These men are professionals. Putting their students into unsafe situations would be foolish, and would give them a bad reputation. I'm curious. Every post I've ever read about MAST has been 100% supportive and complimentary, for the MAST curriculum and for the MAST instructors. Every person I've spoken to at ASC about the MAST folks all speak highly of them and their training. One person's opinion (as bad as it is) means nothing. hk940 speaks with no knoweledge nor credibility. I too would like to see him at a MAST class where maybe we could change his mind about them, but frankly, he doesn't sound like someone I'd want shooting anywhere near me. I like training with people who are humble enough to take instruction without copping an attitude. They make for better team mates and it makes trusting them much easier. |
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I'm almost afraid to add to this heated debate...I'm not LEO, I'm not a former Ranger; I'm just a middle-aged civilian guy who wants to protect himself and his family. I've trained with Clint & Heidi Smith 10 or 12 times (& Oregon bound in October); a Gunsite 350; Farnam; Bank Miller at Sigarms Academy; Rangemaster; Hoffner; Suarez 4 times (& AK & Terrorist Interdiction next month). I'm not saying I'm any good---in fact I suck at most aspects of defensive tactics---just saying I've seen a few training styles and a few instructors. And Oh, yeah...I've taken 4 or 5 MAST courses as well. Bottom line FOR ME: 2 days spent with MAST are 2 days well spent. I think I've taken various Handgun I classes 5 times...MAST took new shooters from novice to competent, safely, as well as any other trainer I've spent time with. And with less macho bullshit and political agenda discussions than many instructors. In their more advanced classes it is MY observation that I've learned useful (or at least interesting to consider) new skills and tested old skills in every class...and again, safely. I've spun around and shot...SAFELY. I ran and did pushups and shot...SAFELY. And by the way...I've done "stress" drills (safely) at several other schools; I've shot with Vaseline-covered glasses (safely) at another school...it's not that uncommon in MY admittedly limited experience. What I like about the MAST team is the diversity of their backgrounds and skills...LE, Military/contractor, competition...so you get a synthesis of styles and techniques. I also like that they're relatively new at this...they don't have as much of a "doctrine" as older, more established schools, so they have less tradition to defend. Everyone's needs are different, and no one trainer has all the answers. If you're serious about defensive tactics, take a variety of classes. Without a doubt Houston-area (or driving-distance) residents should include MAST in their education. They're local, cost-effective, creative and SAFE. If you have to get on a plane, you have many other---and frankly, better known---schools. But MAST still offers you excellent instruction and excellent value. At least that's my opinion |
like i asked earlier . . . . who are the instructors what are their backgrounds? what do they do for a full time job? who trained the trainers? where did the trainers develop their trining phiosophy and style? |
http://mastsolutions.com/home.html |
www.mastsolutions.com |
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Wow, I went through probably 3 bags of popcorn watching this post! Their website is www.mastsolutions.com where there are resumes posted, email and phone number for contact information but the best way to find out the information you are looking for is to attend a class. Do we need to hug it out guys? C'mon, let's hug it out... |
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You sound like a bunch of teenie weenies at a Hannah Montana concert. It's all good and well to appreciate a class and/or instructor, but to get on a public forum and piss all over yourselves like a dog greeting its master is freakishly weird. Go form some sort of ghey groupie chat list about it or something. |
We had a guy who drove from Austin to attend the carbine course. I believe he posted in this THREAD.
I think the only pissing was done by HK940 when he decided to it was in good form to criticize a company when he did not have any personal experience with any of their classes or instructors. The other responses were from students whom have actually taken a class and came to their defense. Call that your Ghey Hannah Montana concert Groupie if you like, but you would probably do the same for a company that has provided you good service... or maybe you're not the type of person who would stand up for someone else... who knows, who cares. I certainly don't. Also, being a public forum, the basic rule is if you don't like it, don't read it. 
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Why do you keep making this ASSinine ASSumption that anyone who has a critical comment must not have any knowledge of MAST? Back up your comments with proof and learn to deal with the fact that it is okay for someone to have a different opinion about MAST training than your own. |
Resorting to assholish comments... Don't get you panties in a bundle bubba. Has your Tuesday night drinking/buddy taken a MAST class? Simple question.
I agree with your statement above from another thread so why is your Tuesday night drinking friend excluded from this? |
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ok, guys. now that i have 15 minutes at luch let's take a look at some pics. the pics are locked so i can't copy them here. please read the comments and look at the pics. also rember, these are from the mast site. they repersent all that mast is proud to show off. these are basic static drill so there should be no "fancy" technique. just good meat and potatoes training. basic platform procedure it feet shoulder width apart. Toes facing the target, strong foot (right) ball of foot in line with heal of week (left) foot. you learn this at all shooting schools and in the mil but not mast. www.mastsolutions.com/gallery_html/sept07/Sep07_014.html www.mastsolutions.com/gallery_html/original/1013.html www.mastsolutions.com/gallery_html/original/0195100.html classic chicken wing pictures... not taught in anywhere but MAST. www.mastsolutions.com/gallery_html/feb08/07-feb08.html www.mastsolutions.com/gallery_html/feb08/12-feb08.html www.mastsolutions.com/gallery_html/sept07/Sep07_005.html this one is just sloppy. sure it's a kneeling drill. which knee do you kneel on? where is the student to student consistancy? www.mastsolutions.com/gallery_html/sept07/Sep07_005.html See anything wrong with this weapon retention technique? Like off hand not protecting face and upper body? Tall skinny candle. Weight positioned over heals? Heals square to target? If you were in a real fight and were close enough to need this technique a slight shove from your adversary would put you on your ass. The only thing right is the strong hand position. www.mastsolutions.com/gallery_html/original/DSCN5303.html based on these pictures i don't need to spend the money on a mast class to know they don't know what they are teaching. |
I have examined HK490's responses especially the one above and have concluded that it is full of the typical ARFCOM baffoonery and that he's speaks out of his ass. Chicken wing? Does he even know what that looks like? Do you?
I found this hillarious especially since the first picture that he referenced had a caption that stated specifically: Skirmish Line... moving forward. Key word is "MOVING." I move with one foot in front of another. HK940, how do you move forward... by hoping so that your
As far as the weapon retention critique, if he had actually been to a class he would know that technique are addressed and along with his assinine questions about proper foot placement, chicken wing position among many others. Taking pictures out of context, especially when one does not know what was/wasn't taught, or has any idea what action actually occured in the picture makes that person seem idiotic and ignorant at best. SC-Texas has said nothing of revelance aside from asking who the instructors are, their background, who taught them and what do they do for a full time job. Most of the answers are on the MAST website, but as far as what they do for a full time job, what revelance does that have? SC-Texas is a lawyer by day and a NFA dealer on the side. Does that mean that he knows nothing of NFA products? HK940, another forum member offered to pay your tuition and even your bullets to take a MAST class so you can formulate an "educated opinion." You have yet to address him of that generous offer, yet you continue to "piss" on MAST.  I'm done responding to this. |
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Wow I think that I would be pretty under equipped to go to a school like this. Look at all that gear . I don't have tactical thigh holster, any amount of 5.11 gear, Oakley sunglasses, tactical boots, knee pads, infidel t-shirt, one of those taliban neck scarf things, Molle Vest, or Kevlar lined shooting gloves. Can somebody with jeans, t-shirt, pistol, and an AR with a sling show up and take a class without all the "operator" toys. If anything thats the turnoff I get from the pictures. Seems like you have to have a gear fetish just to get some training. |
This is exactly why you shouldnt be commenting on something you have ABSOLUTELY no idea about!! I attended every one of the classes that are pictured. All of the pictures except the gentlemen in the blue shirt (I will get back to him) were anything but 'STATIC' training drills. As Einstein mentioned, just read the caption. Moving would be the clue to a NON static drill. As far as you 'chicken wing comments'  OH MY GOD!!! I am so sick of people concenred of how cool they look. Nothing looks more stupid than someone trying to tuck their elbow so far under their shoulder that their wrist is bent to the point of breaking just to keep their hand on the grip. I saw NO chicken wings in any of the pictures you showed. As far as proper kneeling technique and unison in the pictures, this class was moving then entire day, This particular picture was just after the instructor yelled "unsupported kneel" during a forward movement drill where we were going thru shooting positions on the move. These were actually pictures from the AR15.com shoot that MAST hosted for any member that wanted to come. There were 22 students (ARFCOMMERS) there that day and everyone had a great time. Were you there??? ACTUALLY, I know for a fact that you, HK940, have never attended a MAST class!!As far as the guy in the blue shirt, the drill was to be standing right in front of the perp and have to draw out and fire 2 rounds while starting to back up away from the threat. If he got his gun out of the holster before his first step backwards, kudos to him for being so fast!!! There were no rounds being fired during this part of the drill. The only thing going on was grip/clear techniques. One of the pictures you talked about improper stance in was actually a picture of Brian Hoffner as a guest instructor teaching his techniques. You're UNBELEIVABLE!! Give up and admit your ignorance gracefully. I might value your opinion if it were an opinion, but being you have NEVER trained with MAST and the FACT that most of your comments are not correct, you should keep them to yourself. I too have trained with various organizations and all do certain things that I may not agree with as it might make me feel uncomfortable, or I just like doing things differently, but one thing I can say about ALL organizations in this type of business is that safety is first and foremost and MAST is no exception!!! The instructor/student ratio MAST produces is top notch and I have never felt safer in any class!! PS AR15.com accepts donations and memberships regularly for use and benefit of this website. I was just letting you know since it seems you weren't aware of this. If your comments weren't so smug, this whole thread might have had a different tone, but obviously from the responses I have seen thus far, you probably don't have a chance in hell of worming out of this without an apology. |
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close-minded: adj. Intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others; stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas cult: n Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing. fanboy: n. an individual who is devoted to a single fannish subject, or to a single point of view within that subject, often to the point where it is considered an obsession. Fanboys remain loyal to their particular obsession. |
If you added a pistol holster (even a un-tacticool one) and had some way of carrying spare mags, I'm sure any school would welcome you with open arms. ETA....sloppy kneeling, gear whore, chicken winger checking in. 
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I have started several times to write up a detailed description of what chicken wing is and why you don’t do it. Why you drop your strong side elbow to 90 degrees, foot placement and how you walk in an environment but even if I went into great detail on those things you would not listen. For instance foot placement picture one “they were moving”, got ya but it does not matter. Each step should start and end with proper foot placement. Pics two and three of the first series… are you telling me those guys are MOVING? If so I call BS. That is plain and simple bad form and I refuse to take a free class to learn it. I didn’t even touch on not keeping shoulders perpendicular to the rifle, You guys need to be taught WHY we do what we do. Not just to do it so you can look cool. But hey, keep going like your going but don’t go to a real school and think you’re a bad ass because you can walk and shoot a gun. |
That's mature and professional: assume what someone's response is going to be and assume what their state of mind is and whether it's open or not. Most of the pictures under your "chicken-wing" section cannot go all the way down for there is gear there. Pic #1 is a line of student shooters, so they do not have the 2000 to 3000 repetitions of doing it the right way *yet* so that it becomes muscle memory. They're STUDENTS, there should be a learning curve. Pic #2 is of the instructor in front of the line of other students with one student out front as an example. Do you know what of? Of course you do not because you were not there - I was. This student is about to demonstrate a very fast and effective "kick-out-to-prone" from the stance he's in. Pic #3 is 2 shooters doing the same in a race for time (something we call fun.. but still safe. Yes, we know to square up to the target in order to most effectively utilize the most body armor you can, etc. But again, students need a learning curve and I have found that is one thing that is hardest to get people to break. We WILL keep going like we're going and we do go schools and you will never hear us call ourselves badasses. |
I showed up for the Carbine 1 class without any "tactical" gear. I carried spare mags tucked into my waistbelt or in BDU pockets. This didn't detract in the slightest what I got out of the class. |
Don't hold back. Many of us will listen..... |
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Wow, you guys are tenacious and apparently have the time to keep the fires stoked, so in response to your calling MAST out, a response is warranted. I remember, as a rookie cop, having a conversation with a veteran patrol officer about my having made a derogatory statement in regards to how a fellow officer had handled a certain call for service when he immediately cut me off with “were you on that scene?” I responded with no, I was not and he then asked me “then why are you opening your fucking mouth?” Obviously, that was a rhetorical question but I got the message. At that moment, I did not have the experience to speak on such things but I did, out of turn. After a couple years’ experience, I knew not only what he meant but passed on that question to other rookies shooting their mouths off, as the wheel is supposed to turn. To this day, I keep myself in check when it comes to not talking about a scene that I was not on (or things I have no experience with). So, for the sake of future students and, generally, people interested in MAST, let’s address and clarify these issues and I will speak as if answering someone who has read all of this post, sifted through the detritus and posed mature, practical and professional questions. “Sylph” asks about our getting defensive and examining what others with differing opinions have to say and “legitimate points” they make. Of course, a person gets defensive when something that is very important to them is attacked, especially when you know the attacks are unfounded. Differing opinions – the Instructors at MAST, along with the majority of the students, are very professional and are quite used to the “why” questions and differing opinions, because most people ask such things and make legitimate points also in a professional, unprovocational manner because they indeed *do* want to know if there is basis to a technique or if there is a major safety flaw. Another factor is that these questions are usually posed face-to-face, usually in a setting like a classroom or range environment where there is immediate responsibility and accountability for the words coming from your mouth. Other factors such as body language, tone, inflection, etc are lost when posted online. Let’s also take into account that the vast majority of people on this site, looking at these types of posts for this kind of training, are fellow A-Type personalities and the clashing of bravado and power control is pervasive amongst these groups, as most of us have experienced. The point is, the issues that are on the table were not addressed in a manner that was not likely to provoke, therefore, bringing out the defensive posture of the tight-knit students of MAST. Let’s go back to the beginning with “I am really concerned with posts like this. I am not trying to flame you or harm your thread but there is something wrong with a lot of what you are saying.” That statement right there is what cops know is a lead-in to exactly the opposite of what the person is going to say next. When a suspect tells a cop, “ok, ok, I’m going to be honest with you now. You have to believe me”, that cop knows the very next words out of that person’s mouth are going to be lies. That said, this opening statement and the ones that followed have already been addressed and called what they are – provoking and destructive. “I know you think mast is cool and they do have a lot to offer but there is a great big world out their full of instructors and I think come of your comments are short sighted.” – why in the world would you say this to a student, who is obviously very excited about the ongoing training they are getting with this group, and *not* post these issues directly to the instructors or the company representative? Unless the reason for this statement is merely to dissuade this student (and follow-on readers/students) from training with this group, hopefully detracting from and diminishing their client-base, effectively hurting said company financially and in the end, have detrimental effects on their reputation in the local training community. One has to wonder if this is not personally driven and if the speaker does not have furtive motives for this behavior. One also has to wonder who benefits from MAST’s being undermined in the local training community. This whole situation smacks of another local tactical firearms trainer who posted promotional information online and was smeared in quite the same manner by someone who did not have the experience of his training to speak from and hid behind a veil of secrecy and ambiguous remarks/complaints about their background and the position they spoke from. Gemeinschaft1911, is this you? Other specific points were made that do not have the same substance or relevance as some others, especially when posed to a student, that do not need re-addressed. What *is* obvious, is the apparent difference in instructing methods, techniques and attitudes. There’s no way around that and neither side is going to change theirs for the other, so professionals agree to disagree. But, when accusations of safety are lofted, that’s a different story and should only come from experience. As someone at MAST said, if the issue of safety had come from a *student*, it would definitely carry a LOT of weight with it, but without having been in at least one class to speak of, an accusation of safety carries no weight at all. The question was asked of the accuser if that person had ever taken a MAST course, but it still remains unanswered, most likely because their disinformation is coming from a 3rd party who benefits from MAST’s smearing. I can say firsthand, and proudly, that I have been in a couple MAST courses and have trained with their main corps of instructors going on 3 years now and there’s not a chance in hell that I would continue training or be associated with them if they were unsafe in any way. MAST students also invited the accuser out to a course where, if at the end he *still* was not pleased or *still* thought it unsafe, they would have trained for free. Other readers may not know what I know (because I know the character of the man that made the offer) – that the offer was indeed genuinely made in hopes of putting to rest any issues of safety or anything else that remained unclear about the training. No man/men with integrity and character likes having either one or both questioned and although it stings, he will also understand that both should hold up to scrutiny anyhow. This is the attitude the offer was made and that we share together out there. Who *wouldn’t* want to share something that they are so passionate about, take so much pleasure from and have pride in with others? But that offer was not taken. It seems the pictures have been addressed by someone who was there when they were taken (as was I for a good number of them), so there’s no need to re-address them. I would like to point out, though, that those pictures were taken during one fraction of a second during a multiple-hour day and the context of each is in no way apparent just by looking at the photo, without some experience-based knowledge to go on… to read: having been there or seen it. Again, hence, the invite; so that the accuser can gain first-hand knowledge. Then there are comments about gear and the shooters in the photos being gear-junkies. Consider that two of MAST’s sponsors are Crye Precision Gear (armor-makers) and Mag-Pul Industries, as well as others. It then makes sense that these sponsors send items to MAST in order to be T&E’ed, promoted and that part of promotion is taking photos. It’s easy to be a smart-ass and list all of the “cool” “operator toys” that you do not have and use that as a pseudo-excuse to then ask if you can train with MAST, insinuating that one cannot. Again, this smacks of the same small circle of locals that is always using this weak tactic to undermine MAST, their training and the personnel and try to draw whomever will lend an ear into their fold of misery and despair. “Can somebody with jeans, t-shirt, pistol, and an AR with a sling show up and take a class without all the "operator" toys” was asked. Absolutely! Students show up dressed like this all the time, as is apparent in some of the photos or could be seen while attending a class. Do I think the person asking that question was genuinely interested in an answer? No, because the question would not have immediately been followed up with “If anything thats the turnoff I get from the pictures. Seems like you have to have a gear fetish just to get some training”. This is me, rolling my eyes and as my wife puts so succinctly, “whatever”. Then there is someone who spends a lot of time on www.dictionary.com cutting-and-pasting words and their definitions to post – I guess calling names like an 8th grader? Oh well, to each their own; no need to waste energy on responses to those. Once again: the proof is in the doing. If there is a question about this group or that, this person or that – why not take an invite or the initiative to go train with them once, so that future accusations/arguments/name-calling will hold water if proven true. When all is said and done, MAST will still be here and growing and so will those that are unhappy about it. If you are someone interested in training with MAST and it looks like something your intuition says you would enjoy and benefit from, give ‘em a call, I know you will be glad you did. If you’re not sure, take a look at the site www.mastsolutions.com, read the testimonials, ask around and then decide for yourself. If it doesn’t look like your cup of tea, there are other great instructors in the area. The professional attitude, like MAST’s, should be that even if someone chooses another organization/person to train with, it’s great to see another person interested in bettering themselves and preparing for the arena – even if their methods differ. You will find those at MAST and associated with them (friends, clients, students, etc) are a tight-knit, close group that shares a lot in common amongst each other. I hope that this string of posts and bantering does not overshadow the positive impact they have on those involved and it’s too bad those that have most at stake by being attacked are too busy working and focusing on what needs to be done with future training to delve into this, but you can see by the student response that it is something we clearly take seriously and care much about. Come join us! |
The more you type the smarter I feel |
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I hope you guys keep it somewhat civil at least (so this isnt locked), because I actually like the differing opinions. Ive not had any formal training outside LEO, and none for at least 10 years. I want to get some, but I also want to get my monies worth. ETA NSBRDN8, thanks for that write up. Also, I thought the question about can "normal" guys just show up and get training is a legit question. I dont have an ounce of tactical gear either. I dont want to show up and feel like im inferior because I dont have the "proper" equipment. I dont want to train with either instructors or students who are seriously, and I mean SERIOUSLY, training for SHTF/EOTWAWKI/Black helicopters/government conspiracy people. I want to train to hone my skills, nothing more. And I think the gear heads are stereotypically the fantasy world people, which IS a turnoff. I know it is for me. |
I was kind of hoping that the thread would be locked!! All of MAST's classes require a minimum of equipment and is stated on all the course outlines on their website. Ususally, the quote is "train like you intend to fight" If that means in Jesus boots (sandals) and shorts, so be it. You should look into MAST classes. I know there is a Force on force coming up that is being held in a mock residential facility. This would be perfect for honing your LEO skills. House clearing, burgurlary in progres, etc... Name your scenario, I am sure they woulddo it for you. Just be sure and bring a thick shirt. The pellets really do hurt!!! 
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