Posted: 2/24/2008 11:36:58 AM EDT
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So a friend of mine has started a petition to take to the Texas Legislature to allow open carry in the state of Texas. www.texansforopencarry.com |
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OK, if this is for real I have a few issues with some of the content. On the state rep and state senator pages: "Don’t you feel special? PS. The guys over the in the House say you guys stink like poo…just thought I’d let you know." WTF?!?  Are you serious? You are going to insult the very people you HAVE TO petition to change the law? In the Position Statement: "All men have the inherent right to defend themselves and others." Change Men to People or Citizens...yeah it's a bit PC but some fo the legislators are women...we have a womens forum here at arfcom, some of us have wives, daughters, and moms that carry, etc.... #4 seems a bit contradictory: The State does not have the moral or legal right to force a person to get a license to openly carry a firearm in public. It is our position that anyone who can lawfully purchase and own a firearm has the Right to carry it openly in public. Huh? It looks like you pick and choose which laws to obey...which looks inconsistent at best and "gun nut" at worst. #5 Concealed handguns, while a step in the right direction... STOP THERE You go on to critisize and highlight a potential shortcomming in the law...that's a separate issue...don't be critical of what we have or it might backfire. Finally the graphic that takes a potshot at the U.N. "Don't fire till you see the Blue of their helmets" I'm no fan of the U.N. but this graphic is in poor tast for the kind of message you are trying to endorse. When these things are addressed then I can seriously consider handing out the petition. It's a good start...but if you are going to have links to the state and national organizations you have listed on your site...the juvinile stuff has to go. my .02 ymmv |
tell that to the cops. when was the last time you ever heard of a cop being kidnapped, mugged or assaulted? when was the last time a cop car was car jacked? i want crooks to see my gun. i want them to know that i am ready and able to stop them BEFORE they try anything. i want them to live in fear. if they continue to practice their profession they will die. not just for being unlucky by picking a CHL holder instead of a "victim" but because they picked a person with a gun. if the "sheep dog" can have fangs that are visible so should the "sheep". I don’t want them to be surprised by my CHL. i want them to glance for my gun and say oh, shit, and run the other way. |
If I am going to jump someone and steal their wallet it will not be the person with a 1911 on his hip/leg. |
1. They have permission to shoot your lousy ass. 2. They WILL shoot your lousy ass. 3. Everybody will believe their story instead of your lousy ass. 4. Even if you beat them, you're gonna have 300 other cops coming to shoot your lousy ass even if you are hiding in IndoChina. And every criminal knows that they will shoot their lousy ass till they are dead. Now granted, they will indeed be less likely to attack you if you are carrying open, but that is not why cops don't get attacked. I personally don't think that OC is a good idea. I don't want the bad guy to know where my gun is and be able to take steps to get to it before I can. I also don't like the look of an armed society. It looks bizarre and would just make too many people way too nervous. I don't think that OC has been a good idea since the wild wild west got somewhat tamed. Sorry, that's just my honest opinion. |
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In states that have Open Carry (and I mean non-uniformed or non-badged people), is there ANY evidence that Open-Carry folks are attacked at a rate any higher than the non Open Carry folks? It seems most of the complaints about open carry are the same the anti-gunners give for concealed carry. None of which are supported by FACT. |
I can't believe you just said that. A substantial amount of police are killed every year. Police never been assaulted? They get assaulted all the time. In any event. I think it's kind of stupid to carry open over concealed. It may be a deterrent to some. However, it would be a guarantee that you'd be shot first if anything did happen. |
In a nutshell, he was really trying to say that cops are not typical targets of violent crimes perpetrated or initiated by the criminal. I.E., they'd go carjack or mug somebody else cause the cop has a gun in plain sight. |
Yea, I thought it would have been evident I was not talking about cops who were assaulted during a violent encounter with someone they were trying to arrest.  Cops don’t get assaulted as they walk down the street because of the feat the criminal has for the cop’s gun. Not the respect of the uniform. When you take a cop out of their uniform and replace their open carry weapon with a Concealed weapon they are just as likely to be target as the rest of the population. |
Their biggest complaint is always the snatch-and-grab. They think that gun thefts will rise and criminals will get guns that way. What a crock of shit. A good thigh rig with a retention system would be very difficult to perform that on. |
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I wouldn't open carry myself. I don't want to make myself stand out in a situation. If a guy holds up a grocery store and at any point he's seen me with a gun, I'm his first target, and even if he doesn't kill me, I'll be detained and disarmed and unable to do anything about the situation. The gun is my ace in the hole. I don't wanna show my cards too early. That said, anyone wanna clear up openly carrying a rifle or shotgun in Texas? It gets mentioned quite frequently, but when I search all the info is about handguns. Can I walk around with a 30-30 on my shoulder and just go to krogers? |
It's not about the "element of suprise", it's about Civil Rights  Guess what, anytime a bad guy is committing a violent crime, HE has the tactical advantage. HE is the one controlling the situation until you do something. "element of suprise" 
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Not if Kroger's has the TABC sign posted. You can't open carry a long gun into a premises licensed to sell alcohol. |
I've open carried plenty in states that allow it. Do you normally let people get close enough to you to snatch your sidearm? Don't you think you'd cover it with your hand or hang your arm by your side if you thought someone might brush up against you? You know how to stop a grab if you have a good quality carry rig? (SPECIFICALLY NOT FOBUS)? Just push down. If you have a good gun belt, and a good retention holster (even just a thumb break). Push down. Knife or pepper spray with your off hand at this time will help too 
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Bad example to use for your point then. Some criminals are stupid, but not stupid enough to try to rob an officer, gun or no gun. In any event, I just don't see why open carry is better than concealed, but to each his own. You should have the right to do so. However, that website makes it hard to support when they imply shooting U.N. people in the head. That's pretty stupid when trying to get support for a cause unless he's only looking for people who are for open carry AND shooting U.N. people in the head. 
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My first six months with a uniform on was an experience. Every nut job in the City felt he had to come up and tell me about his gun and ask about mine. Yeah, if you want people to think your a bad hombre, I guess walking around with a gun exposed will make some think that. Me, I like the undercover work. That way they thought I was unarmed and approached me thinking I was the next victim. You get to have allot more fun when they don't think you have a gun. The only ones who were impressed that I strutted around with a gun in plain view were 7-11 clerks, they were really cute, except for the missing dentures. As far as Police not getting assaulted because they're armed I beg to differ, that didn't stop any of they guys who tried to kill me in uniform or any of my friends of which two were killed. Walk into a real deal with your gun exposed and see who gets the first bullet in the head. Me, I want to be the sneaky guy who waits and kills everyone unexpectedly. Just one persons point of view..... |
Actually you can carry the long gun into Kroger's. The prohibition for carrying weapons on licensed premises only applies to those weapons that are generally illegal to carry on or about one's person, i.e., handgun, club. illegal knife. The only penal code provisions governing rifles are those which prohibit all firearms in certain areas, e.g., premises of a school, correctional facility, polling place on election day etc. The Penal Code also makes it misdemeanor disorderly conduct to display a firearm in a public place in a manner calcualted to alarm, which I believe entails more than just carrying it. |
MADUCE already covered it, but I will simplify it for you. Open Carry means shoot me first. Open Carry Scenario: Guy walks into a Quickie mart. Sees you with a gun. Gets behind you in line. As you are paying, he pulls his gun and puts it to your head from behind. Bang your dead!!! Lotta good with your badass open carrying self. Concealed carry: Guy walks into Quickie mart. No one with a gun walking around. He pulls his out and points it at the cashier. You have time to move around for a better shot. Nothing funny with element of surprise. Works in everyday life. You don't go blabbing around with you abilities until you are sure you are not outmatched. Otherwise you end up looking like an idiot. In a business negotiation, you let your counterparty talk, you listen. Otherwise you lose when you blab out all of your info. In a sales situation, a salesman should not sell the product. He should ask questions from the client. Then fit the product he is selling to answer those concerns. Open carry has nothing to do with "civil right" rather just machismo bravado. You want "rights" get this stupid ass gun bans repealed. Our "right" have already been erroded all this is doing is looking for small excuses to make us feel good. Stop gun bans, repeal gun bans, and then you get my support. Making laws that says, "Look at me, I have a gun. I'm a badass, don't mess with me!" That's useless if you ask me. If you are gonna put forth the effort, why not push back the time and repeal the import ban? Open Carry is a moot point if gun bans keep popping up. Eventually, that open carry holster you have will be containing a pepper spray as in Dog the Bounty Hunter due to all the gun bans. Efforts can be used elsewhere. |
With open carry you are not a shoot me first “target”. Just like a cop in uniform is not. Take your quicky mart example. Bad guy shoots you in the back. Clerk or someone else in the store shoots the bad guy. Or bad guy shoots clerk you shoot bad guy. Or bad guy sees two “guns” in the store and goes to another store. Take another example. Bad guy walks into a store. He sees two cops in uniform talking by the coffee maker. Is he going to rob the store? Hell no! how about two openly armed civilians? Hell no! Will the two civilians shoot one another? Hell no! Because they don’t have cause to. Just like they don’t have a cause to steal each others cars. Do you really think a bad guy is going to let you stand behind them when they stick a gun in a clerks face? Is he going to let you fumble with your shirt tail, fanny pack or photo vest? Are you planning to do one of those hand over your head speed draws like in IDPA? Ever tried to do that when all a guy has to do is notice your movement and turn the gun on you before you can complete your draw much less fire? We can both come up with unwinnable scenarios. What concerns me more is your feeling that an exposed gun makes everyone a badass. Why do you think me having a gun on my hip would make me think I was a badass? I have carried in public and it becomes just another tool on my belt like a cell phone or multi tool. I never felt the need to prove anything or intervene in a situation that was none of my business. It don’t have a “cop complex”. |
Cop scenario is not much of an argument. MADUCE has already noted his expereince in that. My instructor is a cop by day. He notes that there only 2 things a cop gets when around bad guys: Get shot at or get into a chase. Second point with everyone having a gun. You really think 100% of the people will be carrying openly?!?!? Do you really think 100% of the people will tolerate or embrace this fact. I am progun, NRA and GOA member, vote Republican and I don't like it. I again point you to my original argument. Gettin an open carry law is nothing more than a feel good patch. Better put forth your efforts to bigger things. What use is an open carry law when there is a ban on handguns?
We can come up with scenarios till we are blue in the pace. Doesn't erase the fact that our constitutional right are erroding. Yet people put forth efforts in feel good patches. Much like the left put forth feel good laws. If anyone wants set forth the time and money, they need to do it in a more productive ways. TO REPEAL EXISTING UNCONSTIUTIONAL GUN LAWS NOT PUTTING ANOTHER ONE ON THE BOOKS REGARDLESS IF IT IS PRO GUN!! Cause you know what? Its still a LAW that you are putting on the books. That's all I am saying. |
You clearly have more feelings than facts about open carry. People do it every day all over the country, as it's legal in more places then not. I'm not asking for permission either, but saying end the prohibition. Don't like it? Then don't do it. Pretty fucking simple... Except by your own words, you support some degree of gun control. Typical NRA member. |
An offhand knife such as a fixed blade Emerson Karambit would seal the deal for me. |
HUH?!?! How does wanting to "Repeal existing gun laws" rather than putting another law on the books translate to gun control? Can you please explain that to me.
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Repeal previous gun laws and we would not be discussing putting on another law for open carry now would we. HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND? Adding more laws does not solve the problem. HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND? You get this passed and antis continue to ban guns. HOW IS THAT HELPING? |
You just argued that you are against open carry. Again, do you want the (existing) restriction against open carry of a handgun to remain? ETA: This is what you said...
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I have come from a state where open carry is legal (Nevada). I have known industry professionals to carry openly but not too many citizens, with rare exception. Whether we like it or not, mainstream society does not handle the sight of a handgun on our side in WalMart, etc. very well and it antagonizes some L.E. Should it be an issue?....probably not, but it is. However, the right to open carry eliminates some ambiguities in the law(s) and can protect a concealed holder's rights should some garbage loophole be sought (rare, but it happens). While I have always concealed my weapon(s), I would like the right to carry openly. I may never use it, but it would be nice to know that I will stay out of the Graybar Motel should I print a bit too much or my magazine catches the side of my shirt and is unknowingly exposed for 3 hours. I know the laws have words like "intentional", but we need to remember where the perception of potential situations is coming from and it really does (in many cases) project the reality to the man with the gavel. I think the argument needs to be VERY objective and strategic in nature and be absent of any (potential) gender, partisan, or other offensive language as noted prior. It's not damaging to your ego if you get what you want... Do you think Harry Reid really wanted to build this park? www.accessclarkcounty.com/parks/Shooting_Park.htm These are just my opinions. This and $1.97 will get you an overpriced cup of coffee. |
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I would see that open carry would deter in some situations. If...in situations which a place has been scoped and hard-core criminals are involved, you who open carry is the one they take down first. Don't know about you guys...Even open carry allowed, I still like to carry concealed. Different folks, different strokes. Some feel 'element of surprise' is not worth a shit. For me, with 'element of surprise' on my side coupling with situation awareness, I feel like I'm at a greater advantage than the bad guy. 'Element of surprise' has been used since the beginning of times, and wars and battles have been decided by this factor. |
Can you document ANY cases in the US where this scenario has happened? One would think if it was a problem, it would be easy to point to real life examples. Here's Feinstein's 50 BMG Scenario: Guy walks out of guns store with 50 BMG. Sees airplane, he pulls his new gun out and shoots at airplane. Bang! Plane crashes. See, that is the problem with scenarios. They usually have no relation to real life.. |
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Who cares about whether it's "tactically correct" or whatever? People should have the option of open carrying. Will they run an extra risk by doing so? Maybe. But it's their life to risk. Not yours or anyone else's. EVEN if it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that open carrying puts you at greater risk of victimization, that is still not a valid reason to ban it. That's one bad part of our State Constitution, imo. It gives the State legislature the power to regulate the wearing of arms. Is it reasonable for a government to have the power to tell law-abiding citizens where, when, and how they may carry arms? |
Of course he can't! But that doesn't matter... because so many folks are against it and fabricate scenarios and play "what if" on the internet till they have to get up for work in the morning. |
I would rather lose my rights by exercising them, than to lose them as a result of fear to exercise them. LT, you seem to have a lot of emotion in this and I am not sure why. We have CHL law, about 1.5% of the population has it. If we allowed open carry, I imagine it would not be much higher. |