Quoted: Quoted: what i don't think paying taxes allows an otherwise tactically-untrained person, by simple virtue of paying taxes, to be able to tell an experienced SWAT officer that he is doing something TACTICALLY wrong. YMMV. I can assure you if I come into contact with this NYPD ESU (SWAT) Officer, I will question his TACTICS and tell him something is seriously wrong. I would rather embarrass myself and/or offend him rather than see him get killed because he was doing something WRONG,  just like I questioned the TACTICS of an on-duty uniformed Allen Police Officer a few years ago who was unaware she was carrying Andy Griffith style. tradecraft.us/Firearms/SillyPeople/NYPD-ESU.jpg

okay,

call me stupid, and i have been the first to say im not trained enough to question SWAT tactics myself, but what is the SWAT guy in the photo in question doing tactically wrong?

it is a snapshot of an officer possibly re-adjusting his long arm, and it appears he is using a single point sling, so he may be re-adjusting it so it's not binding on his pouches and hard armor. so his hand isn't on the grip, ready for battle, but should it be for his entire shift?  im not sure this is particularly something i'd go and tell some SWAT guy standing a fixed post that he is doing something wrong.  it's not tactically wrong (from what i can see, there is no threat presented), his safety selector is on SAFE...granted he appears to be right handed (in the absence of a sidearm on his left side, but we cannot see what is on his right side so we don't know if he is right handed either - that pouch on the bottom of the pic can be a protective flap on a pistol holster, or a gas mask pouch on his weak side, i don't know), but if he is right handed then i'd agree his long arm is probably not in optimal position to deploy.  but i don't think i'd have the cajones to go and tell him he is holding his long arm the wrong way.  that's just plain rude if you ask me.  he isn't in a combat zone, he is in New York City.  chances are he may be adjusting his weapon/sling, or maybe he's left handed and it is in the correct position, or maybe if he is right handed he has practiced to bring the weapon up with his left hand on the forearm, and use his right hand to remove the protective lens covers on his Aimpoint?  i don't know.  but i don't think i'd go and tell him he's doing something wrong.

i really question how many people here would look at an officer doing something wrong, and mutter to themselves that it is wrong, vs. going over there and saying "hey officer you shouldn't be doing that."  identifying an error is one thing, going over there and telling mr./mrs. officer that they are committing a tactical faux-pas is something different.

I believe his aimpoint is backwards, but I'm not swat trained either.

Quoted: <SNIP> call me stupid, and i have been the first to say im not trained enough to question SWAT tactics myself, but what is the SWAT guy in the photo in question doing tactically wrong? <SNIP>

Backward mounted Aimpoint.    Always observe the obvious, young grasshopper.

Quoted: Andy Grifith didnt carry a gun.

One more clue and you might figure it out.

Quoted: call me stupid, and i have been the first to say im not trained enough to question SWAT tactics myself, but what is the SWAT guy in the photo in question doing tactically wrong?

I would question his tactic of installing his Aimpoint backwards.

Quoted: Quoted: ...and im here wondering how many guys who just pooped on Dallas SWAT could even remotely qualify to do the same thing they do? there are alot of internet jockeys who are: 1. out of shape 2. lack the experience and/or training to be on a SWAT team 3. have no law enforcement or military training 4. think that all cops who don't know alot about guns are thus terrible SWAT operators simply owning an AR15 or other assault rifle, reading internet threads, etc., doesn't make you a better tactical operator.  it may make you able to distinguish something semantically (i.e. a MAC vs. an UZI, or whatever), but i just wonder how a bunch of people without SWAT experience (myself included) can sit there and judge a major PD SWAT Team. let's take a roll call and see who on here has what it takes to really be on a SWAT Team, not just some regular AR15 owner? ill be the first to admit i am not qualified.  however i served in a Narcotics Task Force performing dynamic entry/search warrants and am going back into LE in 2 weeks. let's see everyone else's qualifications? I only know one person that is a member of Dallas SWAT.   I don't think you would find your thoughts reflected by him.   I have never seen him act, in any way or manner, condescending to people that could not do his job.  Nor have I seen him act in a manner other than a professional.   If the quotes on this board are accurate.  And the description of the SWAT's behavior is truly reflective of the force, then there is some housecleaning to be done. "If you can't do my job, don't judge me for doing it my way."  I doubt you will find that attitude reflected by any real professional.  If you are hired to do a job as a professional, then you do it professionally or not at all. TRG

POW!

Teh goat strikes again.

Quoted: I believe his aimpoint is backwards, but I'm not swat trained either.

No sh1t.
THAT made me laugh my Ars off.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Funny as hell  ...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



THAT HAS GOT TO BE PHOTOSHOP

Quoted: No sh1t. THAT made me laugh my Ars off. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Funny as hell  ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA THAT HAS GOT TO BE PHOTOSHOP

I wish, but it is a well-known photo. Sadly, I think he just watches too many Bruce Willis movies.

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i see it

call me dumb.......

but i dont think that is a "tactical" issue.  it is an issue of equipment, not tactics.

tactics is how he does his job when dealing with an incident.  i dont think tactics is d*cking up your equipment.

im looking at how an otherwise untrained citizen is going to question a SWAT trained officer's tactical response to an incident.

how many ARFCOM guys have been in actual shoot/don't shoot situations?  be it at your home, carrying with a CHL (or without...does it really matter), or prior/current military/LE service?

there may be alot of ARFCOM guys out there that have that kind of experience.  but for a person who hasn't been in, or at least trained for, those situations, i dont think i'd be out there telling some SWAT operator "this is how you need to do it."

spreadfire,

No offense but I think you are having an entirely different conversation than some of us here.
I don't recall the begining of this thread even being about 'tactics'.  I am not talking, nor have
I been, about tactics.

Again, we are not talking about tactics.  Most SWAT teams are perfectly capable
of "laying down the law".

Also, your comming off sounding as tho no LE is ever wrong.  If not knowing how
to use optics is not part of tactics what is it?

Also, can you - for just a moment - put yourself into my shoes and see how someone
that can't even use a simple scope may just not be able to do ANYTHING ELSE RIGHT!

PS:  We aren't talking about tactics.

EDITED TO ADD:

Let's me argue the case like you.  Anyone not capable of understanding why someone
criticises LE for not knowing about their equipment or proper relationship to the
man on the street can't criticise those of us that do for criticising LE for the above.

Quoted: I don't recall the begining of this thread even being about 'tactics'.  I am not talking, nor have I been, about tactics.

EXACTLY!!

GO HIJACK SOMEBODY ELSE'S THREAD!

Enough said.

Quoted: TRG

Let's not bring DPD brutality into the mix...Do you know the story about what happened in that pic?

DPD at it's finest for sure.

They must have used some SWAT tactics on her.

-Suprise
-Speed
-Violence of Action

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Saw a flash of that on the news - What happened there anyhow ?

nocon.darkflame.net/dallaspoliceabuse/

sorry for hijacking this thread, but i feel at least i should respond to people's comments.  this will be my last post regarding this issue.

Also, your comming off sounding as tho no LE is ever wrong. If not knowing how to use optics is not part of tactics what is it?

i never said, nor did i intend to say, LE is never wrong.  notice my quote about how i don't condone LE breaking the law.

but putting on an optic incorrectly isn't tactics.  that is stupid (agreed) but i wouldn't call that a "tactical" error.

my simple statement, as it has been, before contorted by people on this thread, is that untrained people have no business telling trained people what to do, in regards to "you did this WRONG i know how to do it RIGHT."

that doesn't mean anything but that.  take it as elitist, mean, insensitive, sniveling, or whatever.  bottom line, if your feathers were ruffled by my statement, i apologize.  im not saying an untrained person may be able to notice someone has their equipment installed incorrectly.  that isn't tactics.  

that doesn't mean the untrained person may or may not have a better idea or a better way of doing things.  it does mean that if an untrained person says "you are doing this WRONG this is how you do it RIGHT" then i think that is incorrect.  however, if you came up with something different, that makes sense, and probably works better, then how about approaching Mr. SWAT man and saying, "hey, i noticed you did this.  what would you think if you did it this other way?"

perhaps it's just the presentation of the knowledge.  im not saying every cop on the street knows more than Joe Citizen about tactics.  i know alot of non-LE types who have alot of knowledge, they just have a different job.  but i also don't see them taking every opportunity to lambast LE on the web.

thanks.  i am done posting on this issue.  i think i've said my peace and it surely won't change the minds of the people who disagree with me.

Quoted: sorry for hijacking this thread, but i feel at least i should respond to people's comments.  this will be my last post regarding this issue. Also, your comming off sounding as tho no LE is ever wrong. If not knowing how to use optics is not part of tactics what is it? i never said, nor did i intend to say, LE is never wrong.  notice my quote about how i don't condone LE breaking the law. but putting on an optic incorrectly isn't tactics.  that is stupid (agreed) but i wouldn't call that a "tactical" error. my simple statement, as it has been, before contorted by people on this thread, is that untrained people have no business telling trained people what to do, in regards to "you did this WRONG i know how to do it RIGHT." that doesn't mean anything but that.  take it as elitist, mean, insensitive, sniveling, or whatever.  bottom line, if your feathers were ruffled by my statement, i apologize.  im not saying an untrained person may be able to notice someone has their equipment installed incorrectly.  that isn't tactics.   that doesn't mean the untrained person may or may not have a better idea or a better way of doing things.  it does mean that if an untrained person says "you are doing this WRONG this is how you do it RIGHT" then i think that is incorrect.  however, if you came up with something different, that makes sense, and probably works better, then how about approaching Mr. SWAT man and saying, "hey, i noticed you did this.  what would you think if you did it this other way?" perhaps it's just the presentation of the knowledge.  im not saying every cop on the street knows more than Joe Citizen about tactics.  i know alot of non-LE types who have alot of knowledge, they just have a different job.  but i also don't see them taking every opportunity to lambast LE on the web. thanks.  i am done posting on this issue.  i think i've said my peace and it surely won't change the minds of the people who disagree with me.

[Johnny Ringo] Well . . . bye. [/Johnny Ringo]

Seriously, you've been off topic the entire time.  This was never about tactics.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't recall the begining of this thread even being about 'tactics'.  I am not talking, nor have I been, about tactics. EXACTLY!! GO HIJACK SOMEBODY ELSE'S THREAD! Enough said. www.tvcc.edu/faculty/ballen/mods.jpg TRG

LOL...love that pic!!!!

The show I saw for the first itme....it had too much personal crap in it. I wanted to see lots of gear and guns and over half of it was....DRAMA  Stick with the action boys!

Quoted: nocon.darkflame.net/dallaspoliceabuse/

Thread Hijacking: If you can't stop them, join them.

Quoted: Quoted: nocon.darkflame.net/dallaspoliceabuse/ Thread Hijacking: If you can't stop them, join them.

No shit....

Quoted: nocon.darkflame.net/dallaspoliceabuse/

Ignoring an officer's instructions repeatedly and then fighting the officer will cause that to happpen...

Screw her.

Quoted: how many ARFCOM guys have been in actual shoot/don't shoot situations?

Every single waking moment I am alive.



Just most of the time, I choose, "don't shoot"

Quoted: Quoted: nocon.darkflame.net/dallaspoliceabuse/ Ignoring an officer's instructions repeatedly and then fighting the officer will cause that to happpen... Screw her.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: nocon.darkflame.net/dallaspoliceabuse/ Ignoring an officer's instructions repeatedly and then fighting the officer will cause that to happpen... Screw her. chrysler.websitewelcome.com/~user1010/fun/authority.jpg

Yeah, embrace anarchy...

Quoted: Quoted: nocon.darkflame.net/dallaspoliceabuse/ Ignoring an officer's instructions repeatedly and then fighting the officer will cause that to happpen... Screw her.

Yeah...riiiight.

Quoted: Quoted: nocon.darkflame.net/dallaspoliceabuse/ Ignoring an officer's instructions repeatedly and then fighting the officer will cause that to happpen... Screw her.

here we go.......

ETA: 11 pages then lock

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: nocon.darkflame.net/dallaspoliceabuse/ Ignoring an officer's instructions repeatedly and then fighting the officer will cause that to happpen... Screw her. chrysler.websitewelcome.com/~user1010/fun/authority.jpg Yeah, embrace anarchy...

Are you fucking kidding me?  QUESTIONING AUTHORITY is the same as embracing anarchy?

Fucking puhleeeeeeze.   Do yourself a favor.  Get a better analogy.

Quoted: Are you fucking kidding me?  QUESTIONING AUTHORITY is the same as embracing anarchy? Fucking puhleeeeeeze.   Do yourself a favor.  Get a better analogy.

Me?  You're the one that's suggesting that assaulting a police officer is "questioning authority".

Quoted: Quoted: Are you fucking kidding me?  QUESTIONING AUTHORITY is the same as embracing anarchy? Fucking puhleeeeeeze.   Do yourself a favor.  Get a better analogy. Me?  You're the one that's suggesting that assaulting a police officer is "questioning authority".

Were you there?  I wasn't.  I don't have the full story.......

Furthermore..... "alleged" fighting with a police officer, or "alleged" ignoring their instructions, DOES NOT give them a right to grind your face into the asphalt.  Does it mean there will be an elevated response from an officer?  You bet it does.  Doe it mean he needs to try and snap your neck with his knee, or cut your face up?  Absolutely not.  Now - I am not saying he did these things, nor is this the thread to discuss them.....  but I NEVER likened assualting a police officer to questioning authority.  You made that part up, all by yourself.  YOU were the one who assumes an assault took place.  I *question* where it did or it didn't..... just like I *question* whether the officer used the minimum level of force necessary..... maybe he did, maybe he didn't.... I dont know.  But there is nothing wrong with questioning it.....


What does that have to do with embracing anarchy?  

Quoted: Were you there?  I wasn't.  I don't have the full story.......

My point exactly.  If you're going to make up facts to support the story that you want to believe, why can't I?

The fact is that neither of us was there.  We don't know what happened.  We don't know if the cop was getting off on roughing up a pretty girl, or if the roller derby girl kicked him in the nuts, scratched his face (actually, we know she did this), and attempted to grab his gun.  Since we don't know, why don't we refrain from making baseless (with the limited information we have) accusations of police brutality?

What does that have to do with embracing anarchy?

I, like you, was taking it to the extreme.  Ignoring and even embattling our police is an embracement of anarchy.  For some reason in these forums, it's fashionable to take the extreme position that all cops are corrupt, brutal, evil villians that want nothing more than to violate your civil rights.  Don't get your panties in a wad when I take it to the opposite extreme.

Quoted: Quoted: Were you there?  I wasn't.  I don't have the full story....... My point exactly.  If you're going to make up facts to support the story that you want to believe, why can't I? The fact is that neither of us was there.  We don't know what happened.  We don't know if the cop was getting off on roughing up a pretty girl, or if the roller derby girl kicked him in the nuts, scratched his face (actually, we know she did this), and attempted to grab his gun.  Since we don't know, why don't we refrain from making baseless (with the limited information we have) accusations of police brutality?

Please show me where I made up ANY facts, or made ANY accusations of brutality.  Please.  

What does that have to do with embracing anarchy?   I, like you, was taking it to the extreme.

I wasn't extreme in anything I said.  You were.

Ignoring and even embattling our police is an embracement of anarchy.

I completely disagree.  Systematically doing it in all cases is.  But if an officer is out of line, or displaying conduct unbecoming, or viloationg your rights in any way.... you SHOULD ignore them.  Yes, it will most likely land you in jail for the night... or more.... But it is FAR from embracing anarchy.  Like I said... pick a better analogy.

For some reason in these forums, it's fashionable to take the extreme position that all cops are corrupt, brutal, evil villians that want nothing more than to violate your civil rights.  Don't get your panties in a wad when I take it to the opposite extreme.

No panties... no wads here.  Dont make assumptions, please.  

Again, you are generalizing your own opinions... and this has NOTHING to do with our discussion.  Please show me where I took the position you describe... or exhibited the opinion on cops that you denote.

Didnt happen.  I am not quite sure who you are having a dialogue with, but it aint me.  

Quoted: Please show me where I made up ANY facts, or made ANY accusations of brutality.  Please.... Didnt happen.  I am not quite sure who you are having a dialogue with, but it aint me.

You're right and I'm sorry.  I'm involved in another discussion on this topic that got me hot under the collar and I got the two threads confused.  You did not make any such accusations and I assumed a lot based on the implications of the pic you posted.

I apologize.

Quoted: I assumed a lot based on the implications of the pic you posted. I apologize.

No worries.  

My posting pics as jokes in the middle of a serious conversation definitely doesnt help.  They say a picture is worth 1000 words.  Which words were meant it totally up to the viewer.