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Posted: 12/31/2005 9:26:29 PM EDT
If you do not have a CHL, how do you legally travel with a handgun to a shooting range? Does the gun have to be out of sight/reach or is it ok to be in view?

I've always tossed mine in my range bag, never thought about if it was legal or not til now.

Thanks, Monte.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 1:07:36 AM EDT
Just a guess, but it does have to be concealed. I am pretty sure also the the exclusion is 46.15 where
you are going to an activity where a handgun is commonly used. Not quoting, but going just off of memory.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:54:12 AM EDT
It must be concealed.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:21:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MonkTx:
If you do not have a CHL, how do you legally travel with a handgun to a shooting range? Does the gun have to be out of sight/reach or is it ok to be in view?

I've always tossed mine in my range bag, never thought about if it was legal or not til now.

Thanks, Monte.



You can carry it in any non-threatening way you want. concealed or unconcealed, loaded or unloaded, does not matter. You just must be going directly to/from the range to do this. If you veer off course, then you must make sure you are no longer "carrying it on or about your person", and put it in trunk or some other place you cannot easily get access to it. see 46.15 for explanation.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:07:51 PM EDT
the amended "travelling" law states it must be concealed. im not sure if you are using that as your lawful reason.

RenegadeX i erased your address i need it to send you that Texas SWAT DVD!
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:23:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spreadfirearms:
the amended "travelling" law states it must be concealed. im not sure if you are using that as your lawful reason.

RenegadeX i erased your address i need it to send you that Texas SWAT DVD!



They didn't rewrite the existing laws, nor did they rewrite the vague definition of travelling.

They only defined certain criteria, and if you fit within the criteria, then you are presumed to be travelling and cops should leave you alone. Even if you don't fit the criteria, you can still be travelling, but that's up to the cop, judge, case laws, jury, etc.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 10:20:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 10:47:19 PM EDT by Nosmik]
I am still perplexed about all the the handgun laws. So many issues with the travel to and from, how can the officer tell and other BS involved.

I will just carry a rifle in the vehicle...

Is there a written law about us being able to have a loaded long gun in the vehicle? I know there's a lot of BS with the handguns so if I am in my vehicle, I would like to know if there's some paperwork just in case an officer stops me and I can just hand over some law that say it is ok. And before you guys start mentioning the "beat the ride" slogan, don't worry. Maybe that will happen but I just want some "official" paperwork (law) for my defense.

Ok what about this one:
"Sec.A46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS.(a)A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells: (8)a chemical dispensing device;

"Chemical dispensing device" means a device,
other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for
personal protection, that is designed, made, or adapted for the
purpose of dispensing a substance capable of causing an adverse
psychological or physiological effect on a human being."

What the hell is this, we can't even carry some Fox?
I am lost on this TX penal code 'stuff.

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:43:04 AM EDT
Here is the NA for going to a range:

§ 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(4) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other
sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is
conducted, or is directly en route between the premises and the
actor's residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the
activity;



If you are directly enroute, you are exempt from UCW.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:31:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Nosmik:
I am still perplexed about all the the handgun laws. So many issues with the travel to and from, how can the officer tell and other BS involved.

I will just carry a rifle in the vehicle...

Is there a written law about us being able to have a loaded long gun in the vehicle? I know there's a lot of BS with the handguns so if I am in my vehicle, I would like to know if there's some paperwork just in case an officer stops me and I can just hand over some law that say it is ok. And before you guys start mentioning the "beat the ride" slogan, don't worry. Maybe that will happen but I just want some "official" paperwork (law) for my defense.

Ok what about this one:
"Sec.A46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS.(a)A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells: (8)a chemical dispensing device;

"Chemical dispensing device" means a device,
other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for
personal protection,
that is designed, made, or adapted for the
purpose of dispensing a substance capable of causing an adverse
psychological or physiological effect on a human being."

What the hell is this, we can't even carry some Fox?
I am lost on this TX penal code 'stuff.




You're covered on the pepper spray, an example of a dispenser covered under this statue would be a plant sprayer or fire extinquisher adapted to spraying an acid mix or poison.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 8:55:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pliftkl:
It must be concealed.



Ahh, no.

If a person does not have a CHL, the Texas Penal Code 46.02 applies;


§46.02. Unlawful carrying weapons.

(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally,
knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his person a handgun,
illegal knife, or club.


Notice that mentions NOTHING about concealed, unloaed, etc.

To be able to carry to the range we need the non-applicability in 46.15;


(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:



(4) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting
activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or
is directly en route between the premises and the actor's residence,
if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;


concealed or not matters not.

Edit: Renegade was correct, didnt see his post before responding.


Link Posted: 1/2/2006 8:59:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:

Originally Posted By Nosmik:
I am still perplexed about all the the handgun laws. So many issues with the travel to and from, how can the officer tell and other BS involved.

I will just carry a rifle in the vehicle...

Is there a written law about us being able to have a loaded long gun in the vehicle? I know there's a lot of BS with the handguns so if I am in my vehicle, I would like to know if there's some paperwork just in case an officer stops me and I can just hand over some law that say it is ok. And before you guys start mentioning the "beat the ride" slogan, don't worry. Maybe that will happen but I just want some "official" paperwork (law) for my defense.

Ok what about this one:
"Sec.A46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS.(a)A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells: (8)a chemical dispensing device;

"Chemical dispensing device" means a device,
other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for
personal protection,
that is designed, made, or adapted for the
purpose of dispensing a substance capable of causing an adverse
psychological or physiological effect on a human being."

What the hell is this, we can't even carry some Fox?
I am lost on this TX penal code 'stuff.




You're covered on the pepper spray, an example of a dispenser covered under this statue would be a plant sprayer or fire extinquisher adapted to spraying an acid mix or poison.



Actually the key is, is it a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for
personal protection? If it is, then it is NOT a chemical dispensing device and not subject to 46.05.

A large OC device sold for crowd control IS a chemical dispensing device. This is an example of a chemical dispensing device www.securityprousa.com/crcopesp.html
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:25:52 AM EDT
So a 4 or 5oz unit will be ok?

I don't want to sound weird by asking "Define small container?".

Also I was browsing the code again and couldn't find any solid info. on loaded long guns in the vehicle. I am not doubting all the responses but want some paperwork just in case the law wants to give me some BS. This is based on Murphy's Law. I have a CCW, former military, a good citizen and not a gang banger. I am just trying to cover my behind cause I know not all law enforcement officers know the law.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 1:54:20 PM EDT
after 23 years of law enforcement mostly on patrol i have never messesd with anyone going to or from the range.(for that matter unless they were turds or druck I let them off) the law says it is leagel if you are going to or from a sporting event (range).it also does not say how it must be carried. you can keep a shotgun with a 18 inch barrel and 26 inch overall loaded in you vehicle. it may be carried in the vehicle anyway you want. Hey got an idea get a CHL. the law also wont cover you if you are a dealer. there is case law to support gun shows as a sporting event. this is the way the law is applied in my dept. anyway...thanks
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:59:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 5:00:20 PM EDT by OFFascist]
Its entirely possible to be travelling, concealed or not.

However you will want to conceal it if you want to get that "presumption" of travelling going for you.

Personally if I'm just taking a gun to the range I'll keep it in my trunk, however it would be perfectly fine to keep it inside the car.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:10:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Nosmik:
So a 4 or 5oz unit will be ok?

I don't want to sound weird by asking "Define small container?".

Also I was browsing the code again and couldn't find any solid info. on loaded long guns in the vehicle.



You won't either. The Texas Penal Code only lists proscribed conduct. It does not list allowable conduct.

If it makes you feel better, the Texas Weapons Laws are found in Chapter 46 of the Penal Code, see it HERE

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:48:36 PM EDT
Yep, that's the one that I have (saved).
Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:13:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 4:16:23 AM EDT by Big-FED]
FWIW: HB-823 was passed and became effective on 1 Sep 2005. This bill, according to the author Terry Keel, allows law abiding citizens to have a handgun in their car, basically, all the time as long as they meet the specified criteria and it MUST NOT be openly displayed. See the attached URLs.

www.capitol.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/tlo/textframe.cmd?LEG=79&SESS=R&CHAMBER=H&BILLTYPE=B&BILLSUFFIX=00823&VERSION=5&TYPE=B

www.nraila.org/currentlegislation/read.aspx?id=1716-L
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:06:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:

Originally Posted By Nosmik:
I am still perplexed about all the the handgun laws. So many issues with the travel to and from, how can the officer tell and other BS involved.

I will just carry a rifle in the vehicle...

Is there a written law about us being able to have a loaded long gun in the vehicle? I know there's a lot of BS with the handguns so if I am in my vehicle, I would like to know if there's some paperwork just in case an officer stops me and I can just hand over some law that say it is ok. And before you guys start mentioning the "beat the ride" slogan, don't worry. Maybe that will happen but I just want some "official" paperwork (law) for my defense.

Ok what about this one:
"Sec.A46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS.(a)A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells: (8)a chemical dispensing device;

"Chemical dispensing device" means a device,
other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for
personal protection,
that is designed, made, or adapted for the
purpose of dispensing a substance capable of causing an adverse
psychological or physiological effect on a human being."

What the hell is this, we can't even carry some Fox?
I am lost on this TX penal code 'stuff.


You're covered on the pepper spray, an example of a dispenser covered under this statue would be a plant sprayer or fire extinquisher adapted to spraying an acid mix or poison.


I've always interpreted it to mean "no homemade devices" but that most anything storebought would be OK (provided it didn't run afoul of anything else). Does that still pretty-much jibe with what you just said?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:13:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kencoarms:
after 23 years of law enforcement mostly on patrol i have never messesd with anyone going to or from the range.(for that matter unless they were turds or druck I let them off) the law says it is leagel if you are going to or from a sporting event (range).it also does not say how it must be carried. you can keep a shotgun with a 18 inch barrel and 26 inch overall loaded in you vehicle. it may be carried in the vehicle anyway you want. Hey got an idea get a CHL. the law also wont cover you if you are a dealer. there is case law to support gun shows as a sporting event. this is the way the law is applied in my dept. anyway...thanks


Don't believe in 'em (as a matter of principle, not a matter of law).

I'll take my chances with the archaic, Reconstruction-era (or at least evocative of), other elements of law.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:08:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 3:16:59 AM EDT by FatCobra]
From packing dot org


Anyone who can legally possess a firearm, and is traveling, can carry it inside a motor vehicle. The firearm can be loaded and must be concealed. If it is in view it is a violation of the law.

Sections 46.02 and § 46.03 do not apply to: (3) People traveling;

(i) For purposes of Subsection (b)(3), a person is presumed to be traveling if the person is:
(1) in a private motor vehicle;
(2) not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;
(3) not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm;
(4) not a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01; and
(5) not carrying a handgun in plain view.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:16:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pliftkl:
It must be concealed.



not true
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:18:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spreadfirearms:
the amended "travelling" law states it must be concealed. im not sure if you are using that as your lawful reason.

RenegadeX i erased your address i need it to send you that Texas SWAT DVD!




it does not say it must be concealed - you are presumed travelling if you meet certain criteria, however the original law is in place, and travelling does not require it to be concealed...
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:33:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 6:35:14 PM EDT by RenegadeX]
WTF?

If you are going to the range - then traveling, or presumed traveling NAs are irrelevant. You are covered under 46.15 (2) (4)

It has been posted at least twice now, once by me, and once by txinvestigator.

RIF.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:13:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
WTF?

If you are going to the range - then traveling, or presumed traveling NAs are irrelevant. You are covered under 46.15 (2) (4)

It has been posted at least twice now, once by me, and once by txinvestigator.

RIF.




true,but you are always travelling if you are going someplace, including the range...so I guess the law has it covered twice...
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:16:15 PM EDT
The distinction here is that the "Webster's def" != the "TX law def".
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:46:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wise_jake:

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:

Originally Posted By Nosmik:
I am still perplexed about all the the handgun laws. So many issues with the travel to and from, how can the officer tell and other BS involved.

I will just carry a rifle in the vehicle...

Is there a written law about us being able to have a loaded long gun in the vehicle? I know there's a lot of BS with the handguns so if I am in my vehicle, I would like to know if there's some paperwork just in case an officer stops me and I can just hand over some law that say it is ok. And before you guys start mentioning the "beat the ride" slogan, don't worry. Maybe that will happen but I just want some "official" paperwork (law) for my defense.

Ok what about this one:
"Sec.A46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS.(a)A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells: (8)a chemical dispensing device;

"Chemical dispensing device" means a device,
other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for
personal protection,
that is designed, made, or adapted for the
purpose of dispensing a substance capable of causing an adverse
psychological or physiological effect on a human being."

What the hell is this, we can't even carry some Fox?
I am lost on this TX penal code 'stuff.


You're covered on the pepper spray, an example of a dispenser covered under this statue would be a plant sprayer or fire extinquisher adapted to spraying an acid mix or poison.


I've always interpreted it to mean "no homemade devices" but that most anything storebought would be OK (provided it didn't run afoul of anything else). Does that still pretty-much jibe with what you just said?



It does not say homemade or non-commercial devices. It is a long phrase and each element is required.

The key is, is it a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for
personal protection? If it is, then it is NOT a chemical dispensing device and not subject to 46.05.

A large OC device sold for crowd control IS a chemical dispensing device. This is an example of a chemical dispensing device www.securityprousa.com/crcopesp.html
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 11:07:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 11:10:00 PM EDT by tvc184]

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:

Originally Posted By spreadfirearms:
the amended "travelling" law states it must be concealed. im not sure if you are using that as your lawful reason.

RenegadeX i erased your address i need it to send you that Texas SWAT DVD!




it does not say it must be concealed - you are presumed travelling if you meet certain criteria, however the original law is in place, and travelling does not require it to be concealed...



By stating that "traveling does not require it to be concealed" does not justify anything. To be precise, "Traveling" in the Texas Penal Code does not require anything nor does it deny anything. Therein lies the problem as it is a one word sentence/section with no definition.

Although traveling is not defined in the Texas Penal Code it was defined by many different case laws that differed throughout the state, some differing greatly. To remedy the problem, the 2005 legislature placed a new section that lists 5 requirements on what is presumed to be "Traveling" in Texas. That section most definitely says that the gun must be concealed.

Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:20:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tvc184:

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:

Originally Posted By spreadfirearms:
the amended "travelling" law states it must be concealed. im not sure if you are using that as your lawful reason.

RenegadeX i erased your address i need it to send you that Texas SWAT DVD!


it does not say it must be concealed - you are presumed travelling if you meet certain criteria, however the original law is in place, and travelling does not require it to be concealed...



By stating that "traveling does not require it to be concealed" does not justify anything. To be precise, "Traveling" in the Texas Penal Code does not require anything nor does it deny anything. Therein lies the problem as it is a one word sentence/section with no definition.

Although traveling is not defined in the Texas Penal Code it was defined by many different case laws that differed throughout the state, some differing greatly. To remedy the problem, the 2005 legislature placed a new section that lists 5 requirements on what is presumed to be "Traveling" in Texas. That section most definitely says that the gun must be concealed.


To meet that *presumption* of traveling (i.e. the one from the '05 lege), it must be concealed. However, one can *still* be "traveling" with a non-concealed handgun. It's just a better idea to make nice and abide by the new presumption, else you find out the hard way how some elements of the justice system really work.
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