Posted: 3/10/2005 12:40:57 PM EDT
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| seems multiple purchase at one time (one background check) will raise a flag and prompt at visit from the ATF. Other than that get a table or two at gun show and have fun. Lay the guns out and tell folks up front they are a private collection and for sale. Do not put prices on the guns. You don’t have to make them show you ID. Do not write ID down. Do not keep records. Cash only transactions. You are not a FFL so you do not have the “right” to sell guns across state lines and most importantly you are not required to keep records of what you buy or sell. |
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Last I heard, this was a very loose area in the regulations. I have heard no hard & fast numbers, though I think it's something less than 10 a year. In some areas its less than 5, others maybe more. Don't you love it when you can be arrested & charged with felonies whith no clear rules? |
I've bought a number of firearms in the past two months and now it takes quite awhile for my NIC check to go through. Time to get the tin foil out or go ahead & shoot my dawg to save them the trouble?? wganz ¶ |
Their is no federal law on how many "or if there is I would like someone to show it to me" its a figment of peoples imagination. Federal law states you can't buy a firearm with the intended purpose of selling it if you do so you are in violation. There is no federal law currently that prevents you from buying something and getting tired of it and then selling or tradeing it off. I have purchased ten rifles at one time and signed for them from the same dealer no visit no call from atf. I have purchased 3 handguns from the same dealer in the same day no visit no call from atf. Some dealers don't like to sell you more than 1 handgun a week because it requires them to send in a multiple hangun purchase forum no multiple purchase forum is filed for rifles. "nics check knows everything though they say its destroyed as soon as the process is completed but then again they also say Oswald was a lone gunman" You don't have anthing to worry about if you just get tired of a gun and want something different or need to liquidate for cash everbody falls on hard times.  My wife has an FFL now so I don't worry about it.  I just do paperwork. Just one thing I will add if your going to sighn for over 100 a year they probaly aint going to buy into It's not a buisness story. But who knows i have signed for at least 50+ in a year "when i was single and had money" and they never said a word. |
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If you purchase a firearm with intent to sell it, you are now stepping in bad territory. Culpable mental states (intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, or criminally negligently), combined with action (purchasing firearms with intent to deal without a license, selling) is a really bad idea. Sure, most people never get in trouble for this. But I wouldn't want to be the one that does... Remember, if a jury of your peers can be lead to believe that you have done ANYTHING wrong, you will be convicted - and lose your gun rights permanently. BOHICA! If you get a good deal on a couple of guns, buy them, get buyer's remorse and decide to sell one, no problem - no intent. If you want to set up a table at a gun show and occasionally sell off some personal guns - no problem at all. If you buy guns, keep them for a while, get tired of them, and decide to sell them - no problem. If you are constantly buying guns, keeping them a very short amount of time, then selling them for a profit- problem. If you buy 2 or more handguns within 5 consecutive business days from the same dealer, the dealer is required by law to report the transaction to the ATF as well as the chief local law enforcement agency having jurisdiction where the dealer's shop is. Believe it or not, ATF DOES follow up on these. If you want to deal in firearms, get a FFL. It is not that hard to do, and you get quite a few nice perks along with the license; think of the nice income tax deductions. The main reason that the government wants dealer's licensed is to try and keep guns out of the hands of criminals. I believe I addressed the matter earlier here when we found that one of our regular Houston Crew was actually the poster child for gun laws: Felony conviction, TDC time, wife-beating, etc. The Feds' want to try to keep guns away from people like this. If you are selling guns to anyone with cash, and you are doing so as a part-time business, you are part of the reason that the ATF is so active in enforcement. Keith www.NFAinvestments.com Keith Norman, owner Tel. (281) 639-0026 Type 07 FFL / Class 02 SOT Web: www.NFAinvestments.com Email: [email protected] www.ctis.cc Keith Norman, owner Tel. (281) 639-0026 TCPS #A-08772 Web: www.ctis.cc Email: [email protected] |
Just wondering when they started following up on multiple handgun sale reports and in what way?? I'm not saying your wrong. But between 1991 and 2000 i would bet at least 10-15 were filled out on me. |
OK...Example: I'm going to CTD and buy 5 firearms....Since I have CHL, there will be no background check, so how BATF knows? |
unless you buy 2 or more pistols they wont if you buy 2 or more pistols within 5 days a multiple handgun forum must be filled out this forum has nothing to do with nics check it goes to the ATF |
| Regardless of whether you have a CHL or not, if you buy 2 handguns at once or within a 5 day (or 1 week, can't remember) period from a dealer, they are required to fill out a supplemental form. 1 copy goes to ATF, another goes to local LE, and the final one is kept with the dealer's records. This is separate from a NICS check so having a CHL does not bypass this. |
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In addition to the dealer reporting multiple handgun sales, the ATF sends examiners out to conduct compliance inspextions ecery so often. When they come out, they are free to copy all information maintained by the FFL holder. When 4473's are reviewed, an examiner may notice suspicious purchasing habbits; if they do, the examiner can bring in the agents. You know what happens from there... |
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Bottom line is runing a firearms buisness without an ffl is illegal don't do it. Collecting firearms and selling them at your discretion when your tired of them or want something different is not plain and simple there are no numbers so to speak. I am listed as a responsible person on my wifes ffl and I know for a fact several multiple handgun sales were reported on me. She had 0 problems getting her ffl with me as a responsible person. I'm sure someone has been contacted about multiple sales by the BATF but i know lots of guys who have bought multiple pistols at one time including myself and I've never know anyone to be contacted by the BATF.YMMV Note I'm not advocating doing something illegal. But if your paranoid about your name showing up somewhere on a " list " it's probably already on one.  |
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As Keith mentioned, it's not a lot of money and worth the time to get an FFL if you are buying and selling regularly. Bottom line, CYA is better than having to pay the penalty and fine if the ATF decides to make an example out of you. Robert Bailey RDB Sales Terrell, TX 972-741-7284 |
Of course, the good old days of just filling in some paper work paying $30 and having an FFL are over. The odds of an individual who has no retail location to buy/sell firearms from is low, though not non-existent. |
So get a manufacturer's license! No storefront required - my examiner said I could work out of a concrete box, as long as it has an address. The manufacturer's license is a higher level license than a dealer; you can do anything a dealer can do, plus manufacture new guns. This can be as simple as purchasing AR lowers and assembling them into complete guns. A dealer cannot legally do this due to excise tax issues. Keith |
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Don't post that you're buying firearms for the express purpose of selling them unless you are an FFL. The BATFE guys are very nice, but, I'd guess they read the boards now and then too. Get an ffl, start a business, it does not have to be full time, mine is not. Funny though, after being an ffl for nearly a year, I only have one new firearm for myself, and it ended up being my bride's bedside pistol...XD40 with a tac light.... Weird how that works out.... Guess I better order something for myself this year.... |
So how much does the manufacturer's license cost anually and in one time fees?? I have been toying with the idea of building 1911s. Does it allow you to deal and /or make demo/post sample NFA items? Thanks |
? So you are saying lie on your application about your intended purpose? Is that what you did? Never mind you still have to abide by zoning requirements, and if your city will not allow a dealer's license, it is highly unlikely they will allow a dealer + MFG license. |
I keep hearing people say this but we had 0 problems with this also. BATF isn't that concerned with this. If you get your city/county to sign off you wont have a problem unless it's changed in the last 10 months. |
Depends on where you live. I live in NTX. Folks inside city limits of Dallas will have a problem. Folks like me who are in way out unincorporated areas have no problem. The agent who will interview you will know if their are zoning or other permits required for your area. |
I may have misread what you meant, but, you do have to have a premise on which to do business to obtain an FFL. It can be your house, but it must be legal to run a business out of your home. The ATF will come and meet you at the premises prior to granting the license, so, no funny business. |
Exactly, and the vast majority of people cannot run a firearms business out of their home due to zoning issues (ie, the home is zoned residential, not commercial). |
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I work from a converted garage at my home. I am in the County, so zoning is not a problem. Homeowner associations are another matter. I had to obtain a letter from my HOA giving me permission to have a home based firearms business - I actually got it. Many new HOA allow home based businesses as long as there are no posted signs or heavy customer traffic. A type 07 FFL, Manufacturer's License, is $150.00 for 3 years. In order to deal in NFA weapons, you pay a special occupational tax of $500.00 a year in most cases. You will also pay excise tax on all "manufacturer" firearms which are capable of expelling a projectile. |
I wasn't suggesting you could be homeless and get an ffl. You guys are absolutely correct though if your city/county"if you live outside the city limits" wont sign off you have a problem but if they allow other home operated buisness it really depends on how far you want to push it. We all know their's a way around everthing in places where people cant get signature for class III i beleive people are forming corporations. Hell you don't even have to be a citizen of this country to buy a firearm  I guess thats the good thing about having the athority to not sell to someone.I'm not trying to argue with you guys at all but with the amount of FFL holders their are and how many get issued every year. I just don't see it being as hard to get one as people make it out to be. YMMV as always but we all know their aren't near as many store fronts as their are FFL holders. Hell maybee I just got lucky for once. 
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Fuck what they don't like. They put on their trouser one leg at a time like I do. If I'm being 'busted' I want to see ink-on-paper legislation. |
I think everyone who has an ffl or has read the law will agree yea it's crossing the line. Sounds like a straw purchase to me. "basically buying firearms for another person" If it's not crossing the line it's walking it after drinking a fith of Jack. |
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I believe the point about intent is correct..I looked into an FFL a few years ago, just to get dealer prices on stuff really, but found the the FFL will require you to actually have a business with the intent of profit, AND that the pupose of the profit is for your livelihood. That was not the case for me...I am a collector who likes to horsetrade at the gun club. Sometimes I make afew bucks..the sale does not make me a dealer, nor does the extra $$ make me a dealer as its not for my livelihood. The $$ goes right back into some new toy. I doubt its the number of guns traded that is an issue, but it is the intent, as stated above. |
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I have seen a prosecution for this. A few guns, used his garage as a "shop". Was buying and selling for profit. He was warned once, chose to ignore the warning. I don't remember his sentence in federal court as being very long. It was a first offense of anything ever. Of course, now he is a convicted felon and can NEVER own or possess a firearm or ammunition EVER AGAIN, without taking the chance of going back to prison for felon in possession of a firearm. DO NOT TAKE A CHANCE OF LOSING THE RIGHT TO OWN WEAPONS!!!! IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO THIS AS A BUSINESS... DO IT RIGHT AND GET A FFL. I know of two FFL holders who pushed the edge on stuff, like off books sales... who went to jail. I knew them both casually from my gun shop hopping. They both told me they got stupid and greedy... and the result of pushing the edge of the law was tragic!!!!! |