Making a gun legally owned in NJ

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Making a gun legally owned in NJ

Posted: 9/12/2017 8:27:50 PM EDT

A long, long time ago my father was given 2 handguns by a friend. That friend purchased them in Florida. Not sure if there was any type of registration down there, this was 45+ years ago.

Is there any way for my father to make them legally his?

Since the original owner passed away, can he say that he inherited them? A postal permit won't help him since there is no seller, correct?

It's actually only 1 that he wants, an unfired Derringer in 38spl.

I told him to turn them in to one of the Buy-backs when they are giving $200 per gun. But he would like to make it legally his if he can.

Posted: 9/12/2017 8:56:58 PM EDT

[#1]

The "crime" of unlawful transfer happened over 45 years ago. The statute of limitations on that offense is long since passed, so that's water under the bridge.

There's nothing "illegal" about them now. Effectively, he already possesses them legally. 2C:39-6e makes it lawful to possess a firearm in your home, or on your property, absent any permit or ID card.

I assume he knows not to do that kind of thing anymore, right?

Posted: 9/12/2017 9:23:53 PM EDT

[#2]

Thanks for the reply.

I see what you are saying, but what if the accusation is ever made that the illegal transfer wasn't 45 years ago?

My father is 70 and never got more than a low level traffic ticket, so I don't think he will ever have an issue. But you know how things happen here in NJ where we are all criminals. Let's just say for the sake of knowledge and discussion that something happens in which the firearms were found in his possession by authorities and they look into them. He claims they are his, but if the authorities try to track it down it may show that they were sold to someone else in Florida.

Then it would be just a matter of his word? Could that bite him in the ass?

Posted: 9/13/2017 8:36:51 AM EDT

[#3]

Quote History

Quoted:
I see what you are saying, but what if the accusation is ever made that the illegal transfer wasn't 45 years ago?

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The burden of proof is on the state.

ATF really only traces firearms for major crimes, murders and the like. 99% of guns recovered by the police go through nothing more than a NCIC check to see if they're reported stolen. Even if they did try to trace it, 45 years ago is almost before Form 4473 even existed, they likely wouldn't even be able to. If it was purchased by the original owner before 1968 there was likely no record of the transfer at all.

Posted: 9/13/2017 12:07:22 PM EDT

[#4]

Thanks for the response.

Seems pretty straight forward.

We have a lot to lose and NJ gun laws scare the crap out of me, so I always want to be on the safe side.

Out of curiosity, in the future I can get my own pistol permit and buy the Derringer from him in a face to face transaction, correct? That would be legal and have some paperwork behind it, right?

Posted: 9/13/2017 4:49:40 PM EDT

[#5]

Yes.

Posted: 9/13/2017 5:40:18 PM EDT

[#6]

What happens in the case of a death? If the person didn't put the guns in their will, is it legal for whoever inherits them to now own them? Do they have to do anything?

Posted: 9/13/2017 6:36:55 PM EDT

[#7]

2C:58-3
j.Firearms passing to heirs or legatees. Notwithstanding any other provision of this section concerning the transfer, receipt or acquisition of a firearm, a permit to purchase or a firearms purchaser identification card shall not be required for the passing of a firearm upon the death of an owner thereof to his heir or legatee, whether the same be by testamentary bequest or by the laws of intestacy. The person who shall so receive, or acquire said firearm shall, however, be subject to all other provisions of this chapter. If the heir or legatee of such firearm does not qualify to possess or carry it, he may retain ownership of the firearm for the purpose of sale for a period not exceeding 180 days, or for such further limited period as may be approved by the chief law enforcement officer of the municipality in which the heir or legatee resides or the superintendent, provided that such firearm is in the custody of the chief law enforcement officer of the municipality or the superintendent during such period.

Posted: 9/14/2017 8:23:19 AM EDT

[#8]

Thanks.

By "legatee" (I had to look that up lol) that is anyone who the deceased wants to inherit the firearm?

So, for example, if Joe Shmoo wants his best friend's adult son Ryan to have his old 1911, then after his death Joe's wife hands it to Ryan and it is legally his with no other action to take?

Posted: 9/14/2017 11:11:10 AM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
Thanks.

By "legatee" (I had to look that up lol) that is anyone who the deceased wants to inherit the firearm?

So, for example, if Joe Shmoo wants his best friend's adult son Ryan to have his old 1911, then after his death Joe's wife hands it to Ryan and it is legally his with no other action to take?

View Quote

If there's a will, the executor of the will hands the firearm to the intended legatee. If the person dies without a will ("intestate"), then the firearms transfer through the laws of intestacy.... which can get pretty complicated. This is why it's so important to have a will (a properly executed will... not something scrawled on the back of a napkin, that a court will not recognize).

But you are correct - in your example, is Joe had a will, whoever Joe named as his executor would be the one to transfer the firearm to Ryan... provided Ryan is eligible to possess firearms.

Posted: 9/14/2017 12:17:25 PM EDT

[#10]

I see, Tom.

In my example, Joe didn't have a Will but always told Ryan that he wanted him to have his 1911. So that would be an issue, as you mentioned.

Posted: 9/14/2017 1:01:27 PM EDT

[#11]

Yes, that would be an issue. At that point, it's up to whoever gets appointed as the executor of the estate to make that decision. It may be Joe's spouse, if may be one of Joe's children, it may be some anonymous judge. The executor, if even aware of Joe's wishes, may decide to abide by that, and bequeath the property to Ryan. The executor may decide that the property needs to be sold to cover some of Joe's debts. The executor may decide that guns are icky, and surrender them to the police. Whatever happens, Ryan has absolutely no recourse whatsoever, because there is no will to direct the executor as to Joe's intentions.

Posted: 9/14/2017 1:18:10 PM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yes, that would be an issue. At that point, it's up to whoever gets appointed as the executor of the estate to make that decision. It may be Joe's spouse, if may be one of Joe's children, it may be some anonymous judge. The executor, if even aware of Joe's wishes, may decide to abide by that, and bequeath the property to Ryan. The executor may decide that the property needs to be sold to cover some of Joe's debts. The executor may decide that guns are icky, and surrender them to the police. Whatever happens, Ryan has absolutely no recourse whatsoever, because there is no will to direct the executor as to Joe's intentions.

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Ok, so let's say the executor (which is Joe's wife) is fine with Ryan getting the gun.

All she has to do is hand it to him and that's it? It's now legally his?

Thanks again for your help with this. These are questions I've always wondered about.

Posted: 9/14/2017 2:57:23 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
Ok, so let's say the executor (which is Joe's wife) is fine with Ryan getting the gun.
All she has to do is hand it to him and that's it? It's now legally his?
Thanks again for your help with this. These are questions I've always wondered about.

View Quote

Yep - 2C:58-3j says no FID card or handgun permit is required for a firearm passing to a deceased owner's heir or legatee. So yes, basically, "Here, Ryan - Joe wanted you to have this". Ryan would then transport the pistol directly to his home, relying on a very liberal interpretation of the exemptions to unlawful possession to include "place of acquisition due to inheritance" as "place of purchase". Just another in a long list of examples of our complicated and contradictory firearms laws:

"All handgun possession is illegal - unless you have a permit to carry"
"You can't get a permit to carry"
"It's legal to receive a firearm, without paperwork, via inheritance"
"We have no specific exemption that allows you to transport your inherited firearm back home"
"There's no specific exemption that allows an executor to deliver an inherited firearm to the legatee's home"
"Good luck to you"

Posted: 9/15/2017 10:01:08 AM EDT

[#14]

OK so going back to the part about inheriting firearms via a will. Let's say there are over 150 firearms a person wants to will to an heir. Do they all have to be specifically documented in said will?

Like for example,

COLT 1911A1 SERIAL NUMBER 11111

SIG SAUER P-226 SERIAL NUMBER 22222

Or can the will say ALL OF THE DECEDENTS FIREARMS without specifically mentioning each individual firearm?

Posted: 9/15/2017 3:11:54 PM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
OK so going back to the part about inheriting firearms via a will. Let's say there are over 150 firearms a person wants to will to an heir. Do they all have to be specifically documented in said will?

Like for example,

COLT 1911A1 SERIAL NUMBER 11111

SIG SAUER P-226 SERIAL NUMBER 22222

Or can the will say ALL OF THE DECEDENTS FIREARMS without specifically mentioning each individual firearm?

View Quote

Recently my father and I started to look into a Firearm Trust which as far as we can tell should eliminate a lot of transfer issues. We don't know all the legal bits yet but we plan on documenting everyone of our firearms so there can never be a question. Now from what I have read a trust really benefits when you have firearms that are federally regulated (NFA or Title II firearms). Currently none of our firearms are regulated but that is not to say we won't have some in the future and amending the trust once in place should be straightforward.

Posted: 9/15/2017 4:48:13 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
OK so going back to the part about inheriting firearms via a will. Let's say there are over 150 firearms a person wants to will to an heir. Do they all have to be specifically documented in said will?

View Quote

According to my attorney, when we drafted my will, he said it's sufficient to simply specify "all of my firearms" to such-and-so. He then included a part in the will itself that referenced a separate sheet that could specify individual items, and who they should be given to. That part I can change myself, any time I want, and as much as I want. So on there, I can say, "this firearm, serial # xxxxx, goes to this guy, and that firearm, serial # yyyyy, goes to that guy". Any firearms not specifically listed in that addendum falls back to the statement in the will itself, "all my firearms go to this person".

Posted: 9/15/2017 6:10:25 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:

According to my attorney, when we drafted my will, he said it's sufficient to simply specify "all of my firearms" to such-and-so. He then included a part in the will itself that referenced a separate sheet that could specify individual items, and who they should be given to. That part I can change myself, any time I want, and as much as I want. So on there, I can say, "this firearm, serial # xxxxx, goes to this guy, and that firearm, serial # yyyyy, goes to that guy". Any firearms not specifically listed in that addendum falls back to the statement in the will itself, "all my firearms go to this person".

View Quote

Thanks. Kind of thought that is how it would go.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Making a gun legally owned in NJ

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