Posted: 9/11/2011 3:10:15 AM EDT
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All,
I have a cousin moving from Colorado to NJ to live with her brother and his family. She has a handgun that was legally purchased in Colorado and she wants to bring to NJ. She has not established a legal NJ address as of yet. How does she legally transport her handgun into NJ and legally store it here in NJ. Her brother does not have a FID either. My thought was: 1. Get a club membership in PA and have the gun held there temporarily. 2. Get a NJ Drivers License with the brother's address. 3. Go to local PD to start Firearms ID process (and get pistol purchase permit?) 4. Get digital fingerprints 5. Wait for FID & PPP to arrive 6. Complete PPP forms and send to NJSP? Advice and suggestions are appreciated. Its truly F#@%ed up that the process is this complex. |
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She's going to live with her brother - that's her residence. Transport the firearm unloaded, in a locked case, and/or locked in the trunk. Lock any ammunition in a separate container. The locked part is for FOPA compliance during the trip. Make sure there are no magazines over 15 round capacity.
Once in NJ, she is to go DIRECTLY to her brother's house, unpack the gun, and store it there. There is no need to register the firearm with the police, nor is there a need to obtain a FID card (it is recommended, however - has nothing to do with the possession of the handgun, but will be needed to purchase ammo for it). 2C:39-6e is the exemption that makes the above legal. 2C:39-6g talks about the transportation requirements. 18USC§926A is federal law that talks about interstate transportation (FOPA). An alternative is that she can ship the firearm to herself, in care of her brother's address. See ATF FAQ, question #9: ATF FAQ. That avoids all the transportation problems. Her brother is not to open the package - only she is to do that. UPS has been more receptive in the past than FedEx with shipping a firearm to yourself. She can NOT use the USPS for this - it has to be a common carrier. |
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I forgot to add. She wants to be able to go the range in NJ and use this handgun. Are the same normal rules for transport sufficient, locked and separate? By law, unloaded, in a case or locked in the trunk. Recommended, locked in a case, locked in trunk, ammo locked in another case. No loaded magazines. All shooting paraphernalia out of plain sight. 2C:39-6f(3)(b) and 2C:39-6g are the relevant statutes here. Drive directly from home to the range, and directly from the range to home. No stopping along the way. Plan your trip... fill up the tank/empty your tank beforehand. |
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I forgot to add. She wants to be able to go the range in NJ and use this handgun. Are the same normal rules for transport sufficient, locked and separate? By law, unloaded, in a case or locked in the trunk. Recommended, locked in a case, locked in trunk, ammo locked in another case. No loaded magazines. All shooting paraphernalia out of plain sight. 2C:39-6f(3)(b) and 2C:39-6g are the relevant statutes here. Drive directly from home to the range, and directly from the range to home. No stopping along the way. Plan your trip... fill up the tank/empty your tank beforehand. Great points Tom: There are no mitigating circumstances.... NO stopping for gas, personal relief (bathroom, food, drink, etc.), "I forgots", picking up others for attending should be in a straight / shortest distance line, to and from. Right Comrades??? |
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I agree with most everything above (not that anyone here should trust the opinion of someone who drives around for 3 months with HP ammo floating around the floor of his truck cab.). But, after the Aikens case, I am just very reserved about telling anyone from out of state that it is OK to travel in NJ with a pistol. I have just lost all faith in NJ prosecutors. I really recommend Tom488’s approach of just shipping the damn thing.
I would add some caution about the FOPA (18USC§926A). The FOPA does not give you immunity to arrest for violating State and local laws. The FOPA simply offers an affirmative defense that protects you from prosecution. Prosecuted or not, you may still get to spend a day in jail while they dig into your life to verify that you are entitled to safe passage (the FOPA is non-applicable to certain “Prohibited Persons”). Hope it’s not the weekend. Am I the only person who finds the choice of words “safe passage” in the title of the applicable section of the FOPA curious? Is there an implication there that the other states feel a need for the Federal Government to protect their citizens from NJ and NY? 
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Here is the guidance that the State Police provides.
http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/about/fire_trans.html It is encouraging to see reasonable procedures for investigation. Nonethless, Aitkens show us what happens if you sidestep from this process. Transporting a Firearm Into/Through the State of New Jersey
For firearms transported into the State of New Jersey:
All firearms transported through the State of New Jersey: The following guidelines are provided in order to assist law enforcement officers in applying New Jersey's firearms laws to persons who are transporting firearms through the State of New Jersey.
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Here is the guidance that the State Police provides. http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/about/fire_trans.html It is encouraging to see reasonable procedures for investigation. Nonethless, Aitkens show us what happens if you sidestep from this process. Transporting a Firearm Into/Through the State of New Jersey
For firearms transported into the State of New Jersey:
All firearms transported through the State of New Jersey: The following guidelines are provided in order to assist law enforcement officers in applying New Jersey's firearms laws to persons who are transporting firearms through the State of New Jersey.
The more corrupt the state, the more numerous its laws |
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I agree with most everything above (not that anyone here should trust the opinion of someone who drives around for 3 months with HP ammo floating around the floor of his truck cab.). But, after the Aikens case, I am just very reserved about telling anyone from out of state that it is OK to travel in NJ with a pistol. I have just lost all faith in NJ prosecutors. I really recommend Tom488’s approach of just shipping the damn thing. I would add some caution about the FOPA (18USC§926A). The FOPA does not give you immunity to arrest for violating State and local laws. The FOPA simply offers an affirmative defense that protects you from prosecution. Prosecuted or not, you may still get to spend a day in jail while they dig into your life to verify that you are entitled to safe passage (the FOPA is non-applicable to certain “Prohibited Persons”). Hope it’s not the weekend. Am I the only person who finds the choice of words “safe passage” in the title of the applicable section of the FOPA curious? Is there an implication there that the other states feel a need for the Federal Government to protect their citizens from NJ and NY? Good point - there is no doubt if stopped by the minimally "informed" LEO about legal possession - there will always be RISK with this, that you would have to handle is court with a high "feed" lawyer. |
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I forgot to add. She wants to be able to go the range in NJ and use this handgun. Are the same normal rules for transport sufficient, locked and separate? By law, unloaded, in a case or locked in the trunk. Recommended, locked in a case, locked in trunk, ammo locked in another case. No loaded magazines. All shooting paraphernalia out of plain sight. 2C:39-6f(3)(b) and 2C:39-6g are the relevant statutes here. where is "no loaded magazines" stipulated in the relevant statutes? ar-jedi |
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I forgot to add. She wants to be able to go the range in NJ and use this handgun. Are the same normal rules for transport sufficient, locked and separate? By law, unloaded, in a case or locked in the trunk. Recommended, locked in a case, locked in trunk, ammo locked in another case. No loaded magazines. All shooting paraphernalia out of plain sight. 2C:39-6f(3)(b) and 2C:39-6g are the relevant statutes here. where is "no loaded magazines" stipulated in the relevant statutes? ar-jedi I wish someone from LE would confirm or deny the sin of loaded mags. It is certainly not in the black letters of the law. Is this from court precedence or NJAG guidelines or something else? Or, is it just a myth? Knowledgeable LE only, please |
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NJ LEO's... please your expertise requested.
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I forgot to add. She wants to be able to go the range in NJ and use this handgun. Are the same normal rules for transport sufficient, locked and separate? By law, unloaded, in a case or locked in the trunk. Recommended, locked in a case, locked in trunk, ammo locked in another case. No loaded magazines. All shooting paraphernalia out of plain sight. 2C:39-6f(3)(b) and 2C:39-6g are the relevant statutes here. where is "no loaded magazines" stipulated in the relevant statutes? ar-jedi I wish someone from LE would confirm or deny the sin of loaded mags. It is certainly not in the black letters of the law. Is this from court precedence or NJAG guidelines or something else? Or, is it just a myth? Knowledgeable LE only, please |
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where is "no loaded magazines" stipulated in the relevant statutes? It isn't. It was included in a list of recommendations that go above what is required by statute. No, it's no where in the statutes. However, I've heard the same recommendation from two different NJ firearms attorneys that it COULD be interpreted that magazine=part of firearm, therefore loaded magazine=loaded firearm=PMITAP |
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where is "no loaded magazines" stipulated in the relevant statutes? It isn't. It was included in a list of recommendations that go above what is required by statute. No, it's no where in the statutes. However, I've heard the same recommendation from two different NJ firearms attorneys that it COULD be interpreted that magazine=part of firearm, therefore loaded magazine=loaded firearm=PMITAP Thanks, Tom. Follows the golden rule for guns in NJ => Fail safe. |
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It isn't. It was included in a list of recommendations that go above what is required by statute. do you have a link to this list? who authored the list? what does "go above what is required by statute" mean? does that mean the "list of recommendations" extends and/or amplifies the stipulations of the relevant statute(s), and is legally binding? Quoted:
No, it's no where in the statutes. However, I've heard the same recommendation from two different NJ firearms attorneys that it COULD be interpreted that magazine=part of firearm, therefore loaded magazine=loaded firearm=PMITAP a loaded NJ-compliant magazine is not a regulated item, as a firearm is. possession of a loaded NJ-compliant magazine is lawful. a loaded NJ-compliant magazine is an assembly of two unregulated items: a NJ-compliant magazine, and cartridges. in any case, a loaded magazine is not a firearm, as a firearm is defined by the law... here is one definition of a firearm: (link) A firearm is a weapon that launches one, or many, projectile(s) at high velocity through confined burning of a propellant. This subsonic burning process is technically known as deflagration, as opposed to supersonic combustion known as a detonation. In older firearms, the propellant was typically black powder or cordite, but modern firearms use smokeless powder or other propellants. Most modern firearms (with the notable exception of smoothbore firearms) have rifled barrels to impart spin to the projectile for improved flight stability. here is the NJ Legislature's definition of a firearm: (link) "Firearm or firearms" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm, which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person. so: does a lawful magazine, by itself, fulfill the definition of a firearm, either in general or in NJ's interpretation? does a lawful magazine, loaded with cartridges, fulfill the definition of a firearm, either in general or in NJ's interpretation? ar-jedi |
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Ummm... I think I did, in one of the above posts... where I said, by law, you only need secure your unloaded firearm in a case. I went on to recommend that said case be locked, and/or locked in the trunk (if possible), with ammunition locked in another case, magazines unloaded, and nothing shooting-related out in plain sight. None of that is required by law, but all of it goes to making sure an inadvertent traffic stop doesn't end up in an arrest by a LEO unfamiliar with the intracacies of NJ's laws.
do you have a link to this list? who authored the list? what does "go above what is required by statute" mean?
I suppose that depends on what your definition of "is", is... 
a loaded NJ-compliant magazine is not a regulated item, as a firearm is. possession of a loaded NJ-compliant magazine is lawful. a loaded NJ-compliant magazine is an assembly of two unregulated items: a NJ-compliant magazine, and cartridges. in any case, a loaded magazine is not a firearm, as a firearm is defined by the law... Feel free to call the Law Offices of Evan Nappen, and debate the above with him. The issue is, the definition of a loaded firearm is NOT defined anywhere. In PA, it's clearly defined: a loaded firearm is a firearm with a round in the chamber, or rounds in the fixed magazine. In the case of a detachable magazine, the firearm is considered loaded if the firearm and magazine are stored in the same compartment. In Ohio, a firearm in a vehicle is considered loaded if the firearm and loaded magazine are contained in the same vehicle. In NJ, there's no definition - meaning everyone is free to interpret the laws as they see fit. And, since the only interpretation that matters to you, as Joe Citizen, is that of the arresting officer, and his local prosecutor. SO.... in order to avoid the VERY REAL possibility of a LEO and prosecutor reaching the conclusion that, "magazine = part of the firearm, loaded magazine = loaded firearm", the RECOMMENDATION is to avoid transporting loaded magazines. Everyone is free to decide for themselves if the 5 minutes saved by loading magazines at home is worth the risk of a legal shitstorm. |
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There is a big difference between the black letters of the law and the practice of law. Tom488 is simply saying that there are ambiguities and uncertainties in reasonable interpretation of the terms “loaded” and “unloaded.” While I personally disagree with the interpretations he is citing (and I suspect he does as well), I can see where they are reasonable and could potentially hold up to a challenge. There is indeed a risk.
Whether we like it or not, it is the way our system of justice works. Knowing that is why I asked the question the way I asked it. Quoted:
[snip] ... It is certainly not in the black letters of the law. Is this from court precedence or NJAG guidelines or something else? Or, is it just a myth? Knowledgeable LE only, please Old age has taught me: sometimes you just have to accept that, one way or another, you ARE going to *please* the man. It is always better to suckerdown willingly than it is to get raped up the south pole. 
I would rather fail safe. I will transport my mags unloaded. |
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In NJ, there's no definition. ok, we are on the same page now. there is no NJ statute stipulating that the transport of NJ-compliant loaded magazines is unlawful. ergo, there is no NJ statute by which you can be arrested and charged for possession of loaded magazines. to sum up: in NJ, it is lawful to transport loaded magazines in one locked container, with a separate second locked container holding unloaded firearms. ar-jedi |
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there is no NJ statute stipulating that the transport of NJ-compliant loaded magazines is unlawful. ergo, there is no NJ statute by which you can be arrested and charged for possession of loaded magazines. to sum up: in NJ, it is lawful to transport loaded magazines in one locked container, with a separate second locked container holding unloaded firearms. Correct... there is no charge for unlawful possession of a loaded magazine. However, there is a charge for unlawful possession of a firearm... which is exempt if you're in compliance with 2C:39-6e or 2C:39-6f, AND 2C:39-6g - which stipulates that the firearm must be unloaded. Tell me... what's the definition of a loaded firearm in NJ? |
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Correct... there is no charge for unlawful possession of a loaded magazine. However, there is a charge for unlawful possession of a firearm... which is exempt if you're in compliance with 2C:39-6e or 2C:39-6f, AND 2C:39-6g - which stipulates that the firearm must be unloaded. you are in a cul-de-sac here. a magazine is not a firearm –– it is not a regulated item. adding another unregulated item (a cartridge) to the (already known to be unregulated) magazine does not make the assembly a regulated firearm. now then, regarding your question, Quoted:
Tell me... what's the definition of a loaded firearm in NJ? "loaded" and "unloaded" are adjectives that modify the word "firearm". to establish the definition of "loaded firearm", first we have to have a firearm. but we have already previously established a magazine is not a firearm, neither under a "general" definition nor under the specific definition in the NJ statute. ergo, it doesn't matter whether the magazine is assembled with cartridges or not, as it is not a firearm –– and is therefore unregulated and lawful. there is no NJ statute which prohibits conveyance of ammunition in magazines. period. ar-jedi |
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I'm not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse, or are just misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about the isolated act of transporting a loaded magazine... I'm talking about possessing both a firearm, AND a magazine for said firearm, said magazine being loaded with ammunition.
Now... if you want to continue to play word games, that's fine. I'm telling you that it is the opinion of someone much more versed in NJ firearms law than you, I, and the rest of the members here put together... that the above combination - a firearm possessed in conjunction with a loaded magazine - CAN POSSIBLY be construed as a loaded firearm. As I've pointed out before.... in other states, Ohio specifically, it's right in their law that a firearm and a loaded magazine contained within the same vehicle constitutes a loaded firearm. NJ has no clear definition of what constitutes a loaded firearm... THEREFORE, to remove any ambiguity, and hence remove the possibility of arrest, THE RECOMMENDATION IS TO NOT TRANSPORT LOADED MAGAZINES ALONG WITH FIREARMS IN THE SAME VEHICLE. End of discussion. You obviously are free to do whatever you want. I sincerely hope you never run into a problem. As for myself, along with many others, we'll choose to transport our magazines unloaded, and simply load up at the range. |
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Correct... there is no charge for unlawful possession of a loaded magazine. However, there is a charge for unlawful possession of a firearm... which is exempt if you're in compliance with 2C:39-6e or 2C:39-6f, AND 2C:39-6g - which stipulates that the firearm must be unloaded. you are in a cul-de-sac here. a magazine is not a firearm –– it is not a regulated item. adding another unregulated item (a cartridge) to the (already known to be unregulated) magazine does not make the assembly a regulated firearm. now then, regarding your question, Quoted:
Tell me... what's the definition of a loaded firearm in NJ? "loaded" and "unloaded" are adjectives that modify the word "firearm". to establish the definition of "loaded firearm", first we have to have a firearm. but we have already previously established a magazine is not a firearm, neither under a "general" definition nor under the specific definition in the NJ statute. ergo, it doesn't matter whether the magazine is assembled with cartridges or not, as it is not a firearm –– and is therefore unregulated and lawful. there is no NJ statute which prohibits conveyance of ammunition in magazines. period. ar-jedi ar-jedi this is a fine example of blackboard definition and logic. Our problem is, this is NJ, more controlled by politics, agenda and whim of a said LEO. No bashing here, I am former Peace Officer. I believe the LEO community here are suggesting, better to error on caution's side - or suffer possible consequences of being judged by "peers" that have *no* concept of the 2nd or anything related to it. |
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But, after the Aikens case, I am just very reserved about telling anyone from out of state that it is OK to travel in NJ with a pistol. I have just lost all faith in NJ prosecutors. Dontalo, This was my perspective as well. Hell, its to the point I'm paranoid about going to the range. Thanks for the link to the NJSP guidance. This is what I was looking for. |