[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How Long Before (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/17/2011 12:38:02 PM EDT
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the gilded NJ Teachers union decides to follow the lead from Wisconsin? This refusal to face economic reality and contribute to their own healthcare and pension seems to be a rampant problem in their profession.
Interesting that the folks inside Wisconsin's capitol building were chanting "Kill the bill". Same chant many of us voiced in DC when Nancy and her cohort were forcing Obamacare down our throats. |
| The Teachers took the Job because of great heath care. Not sure about you but $50,000 a year for a person with masters degree sounds pretty cheap to me. I would refuse to give up anything if i were them. How bout we save some money on welfare, cut the give away money in half and see if there is still any budget problem. PS they do contribute to their PENSION. The only ones that dont contribute to pensions are Judges and maybe some Political Positions. |
| 50 a year for a masters??? Where is this at. Down here they pay Kindergarten teachers 6 figures. I'm sorry, but I don't care what your level of institutional education is, you can't justify to me $100,000 for kindergarten teachers who work 180 days a year, get two 1 week vacations during that time, plus holidays off that the private sector doesn't consider holidays, plus summers off, plus accumulated unused sick time, plus their health care and pensions on top of that. |
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The Teachers took the Job because of great heath care. Not sure about you but $50,000 a year for a person with masters degree sounds pretty cheap to me. I would refuse to give up anything if i were them. How bout we save some money on welfare, cut the give away money in half and see if there is still any budget problem. PS they do contribute to their PENSION. The only ones that dont contribute to pensions are Judges and maybe some Political Positions. WHo gives a damn what degree they have? Hows that RELATE TO ANYTHING? Noone grabbed them and made them become a teacher, its their chosen profession. On top of all that, 50K a year for what basically amounts to a part time job isn't bad. And of course, theres that whole problem that their pay isn't performance based, which is a major issue. Public schools are nothing to be proud of in most states. |
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50 a year for a masters??? Where is this at. Down here they pay Kindergarten teachers 6 figures. I'm sorry, but I don't care what your level of institutional education is, you can't justify to me $100,000 for kindergarten teachers who work 180 days a year, get two 1 week vacations during that time, plus holidays off that the private sector doesn't consider holidays, plus summers off, plus accumulated unused sick time, plus their health care and pensions on top of that. Once again, the degree doesn't matter a damned bit. It really doesn't. Folks want to keep pretending they do, and the NJEA pretends their folks are a bunch of fucking heros. My easiest rebuttal: Look at statewide test data bases from all the districts, it isn't impressive. |
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No question we need changes to the pension system. Workers in the public sector need to pay their fair share like we in the public sector pay.
However why does our Governor have nothing to say about Social Welfare and Illegal Immigrants draining our tax base at an alarming rate? IMHO this is much more a concern to the taxpayers of NJ. Under the current welfare system there are very few incentives for welfare recipients to better their economic situation by themselves by learning new skills or trying to get a job. The welfare system as it is today pays people more than many entry level jobs would pay and welfare benefits are tax free. So people who are receiving thousands of dollars a month in welfare payments usually choose to continue to take welfare payments instead of working because their income is higher when they are not working. This should be no surprise to the leaders of our State government right? We as taxpayers know the real reason why they will never touch that. With an estimated 550,000 illegal immigrants, New Jersey ranks fifth among the states with the highest illegal immigrant populations, behind New York, Florida, Texas. California is the state with the highest illegal immigrant population. Those who suggest that the current influx of Mexicans is simply a repetition of other surges in our history such as from the United Kingdom, Ireland, Germany or Italy should look at the facts. Mexican entries each year are running at about half a million per year (about 220,000 legal admissions and about 380,000 illegal entrants).2 A comparison of that wave of Mexican entries to the largest historical surges from European countries shows how the present influx is unlike any before it. So called "Anchor Babies" present another incredible drain of NJ 's tax dollars. From Hospital care to schooling to SSI. When is New Jersey going to get serious about illegal immigration? ICE is useless in cities like Plainfield, Jersey City & Bound Brook. The illegals are standing on street corners laughing. People cannot pay their bills and mortgage yet we allow illegal immigrants into New Jersey to take jobs away from American's. Go after the business' and fine them $10,000 for every illegal they hire. This will put a quick end to illegal immigration in New Jersey. NJ has a lot of social and financial problems that it refuses to address. Until our elected representatives grow some balls and attack the real issues NJ will remain in the toilet. |
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No question we need changes to the pension system. Workers in the public sector need to pay their fair share like we in the public sector pay. However why does our Governor have nothing to say about Social Welfare and Illegal Immigrants draining our tax base at an alarming rate? IMHO this is much more a concern to the taxpayers of NJ. Under the current welfare system there are very few incentives for welfare recipients to better their economic situation by themselves by learning new skills or trying to get a job. The welfare system as it is today pays people more than many entry level jobs would pay and welfare benefits are tax free. So people who are receiving thousands of dollars a month in welfare payments usually choose to continue to take welfare payments instead of working because their income is higher when they are not working. This should be no surprise to the leaders of our State government right? We as taxpayers know the real reason why they will never touch that. With an estimated 550,000 illegal immigrants, New Jersey ranks fifth among the states with the highest illegal immigrant populations, behind New York, Florida, Texas. California is the state with the highest illegal immigrant population. Those who suggest that the current influx of Mexicans is simply a repetition of other surges in our history such as from the United Kingdom, Ireland, Germany or Italy should look at the facts. Mexican entries each year are running at about half a million per year (about 220,000 legal admissions and about 380,000 illegal entrants).2 A comparison of that wave of Mexican entries to the largest historical surges from European countries shows how the present influx is unlike any before it. So called "Anchor Babies" present another incredible drain of NJ 's tax dollars. From Hospital care to schooling to SSI. When is New Jersey going to get serious about illegal immigration? ICE is useless in cities like Plainfield, Jersey City & Bound Brook. The illegals are standing on street corners laughing. People cannot pay their bills and mortgage yet we allow illegal immigrants into New Jersey to take jobs away from American's. Go after the business' and fine them $10,000 for every illegal they hire. This will put a quick end to illegal immigration in New Jersey. NJ has a lot of social and financial problems that it refuses to address. Until our elected representatives grow some balls and attack the real issues NJ will remain in the toilet. Exactly, stop bashing each other (Americans) of what they've got, lets take on an issue that hurts all Americans. |
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Wow not at all what I expected from the AR15 membership. You all sound like private sector snobs who are bitter now because the economy is down and the Teacher's still have a decent job. We live in NJ who the hell can support a family, own a house and maintain a comfortable life style on even the highest over estimate of $100,000 a year. That number is what the Gov wants you to think it is but really in order to make that kind of money you would have to be a teacher for 20 years or more. Teachers have over 17 steps that means it takes over 17 years to achieve top pay.
Government type career most likely was taken because of security and benefits. Now that private sector is down does that mean that those government employees should be punished or retaliated against because it seems they have the better deal. |
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Wow not at all what I expected from the AR15 membership. You all sound like private sector snobs who are bitter now because the economy is down and the Teacher's still have a decent job. We live in NJ who the hell can support a family, own a house and maintain a comfortable life style on even the highest over estimate of $100,000 a year. That number is what the Gov wants you to think it is but really in order to make that kind of money you would have to be a teacher for 20 years or more. Teachers have over 17 steps that means it takes over 17 years to achieve top pay. Government type career most likely was taken because of security and benefits. Now that private sector is down does that mean that those government employees should be punished or retaliated against because it seems they have the better deal. I guess you missed the point where "private sector" employees make less money, and in turn have less money to pay taxes, which goes to public employees/funding. Without the private sector, the public sector cannot function. We all can't be public employees because we would all be serving each other, getting nothing done in the end. |
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Wow not at all what I expected from the AR15 membership. What did you expect? Where do you think the money to support and enrich the fat NJEA pension plans and healthcare benefits come from?? I can only speak for myself and let me tell you that I am all taxed out. My real estate taxes are prohibitive and I do not have a gilded pension plan. I pay out of my own pocket for my family's healthcare. An while I am on the topic of my family, I have two kids, one in his last year in HS, and the other in college. It would take too much time to make this point, instead let me say that they are both academically successful because after coming home for school, they have been "home schooled" by my wife and I. The education in the public sector leaves a lot to be desired (tenure!). You all sound like private sector snobs who are bitter now because the economy is down and the Teacher's still have a decent job. I do not begrudge what the teachers receive as salaries for their work but when they refuse to accept the economical realities of today, they show me that they believe they are part of a privileged class. As for "you all sound like private sector snobs", we are not the ones who refuse to contribute a measly percentage of our income towards benefits. I agree with you, they do have a decent job but they do not deserve obscene benefits which have been given to them by corrupt politicians in return for their political support. By the way, it has been pointed out that it is the private sector that funds the public unions. To repeat myself, the private sector is all tapped out. We live in NJ who the hell can support a family, own a house and maintain a comfortable life style on even the highest over estimate of $100,000 a year. EXACTLY! You do realize the private sector also lives in NJ. That number is what the Gov wants you to think it is but really in order to make that kind of money you would have to be a teacher for 20 years or more. Teachers have over 17 steps that means it takes over 17 years to achieve top pay. Source for this claim is .......? Government type career most likely was taken because of security and benefits. Now that private sector is down does that mean that those government employees should be punished or retaliated against because it seems they have the better deal. No, they should not be punished nor retaliated against. What is needed is a restructuring of contracts which are in line with what "the private sector" can afford and not just what the unions want. A bad economy affects everyone not just the public unions. The time has come to get real and share the pain. |
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Let me add my two cents worth, not that it matters any. Lori teaches at a charter school in Trenton and did her student teaching in Trenton too.
Lets start with her student teaching four years ago in Trenton. By November there was no paper in the rest rooms to clean yourself with. Lori bought it for both the bathroom the teachers used and students bathroom. Copy paper, did not exist after the end of September. Paper towels, once again did not exist after November. My question was and still is, where did the money go? As for the charter school now, school is six days a week, that is right, Saturday too. Tuesday and Thursday are late days, tutoring until five. School starts first week in September and goes until the last week in June. No pension or health care. Raise, none in three years but Lori did get a HUGE bonus this past Christmas, one hundred check, after tax, it was eighty five dollors. Because money was tight this past year ALL non teaching staff took a 25% pay cut. I still don't know where all these high paying teaching jobs are. Must be in all the lilly white areas cause it sure ain't where Lori is! She still ain't broke 50k a year level! The kids, that is a whole 'nother story for another time. Maxwell |
| my daughter's teacher with 7 years in makes $12k more than me with 22 years, wesame in both have bachelor degrees, only I have been hurt a few times protecting her from the scum. There are some teachers making bucks, there are many not, there are many school administrators making serious money around $150K....same in LE, we are 2nd lowest paid in NJ and christie wants to make an example of us. The politrical boss is a retrired teacher, he has gotten about 4 .gov checks a year ,making close to $200K, Stop pointing fingers at all government employees....we are not all the bad guys. The county did a contract with their bought and paid for union president...put a $12K step before max as most only last less than 5 years in the job. Now they decided to stop that step....they just said..we aren't paying you. They know no one will quit, they also brag about a $15million surplus....oh now you want to talk about the tax money that I have found flowing to their friends? Or how they get around pay to play? Look for the crooks using the system. |
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The Teachers took the Job because of great heath care. Not sure about you but $50,000 a year for a person with masters degree sounds pretty cheap to me. I would refuse to give up anything if i were them. How bout we save some money on welfare, cut the give away money in half and see if there is still any budget problem. PS they do contribute to their PENSION. The only ones that dont contribute to pensions are Judges and maybe some Political Positions. I wouldn't pay minimum wage to a person that held a Masters' in education. It's a joke degree. My friend Gary taught at Ramapo and offered comments on the ed majors that he encountered. The most splintering indictment was the 400 level class on how to arrange the bulletin board. You read that right, it was a 400 class for seniors, with prerequisites. This taught the student how to set up a bulletin board. Yep. |
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I see. So you begrudge individuals their success? These executives got there by working and wanting to be successful in their business, no one gave them their positions, it's called a free market and workforce. I may be wrong but is Horizon Blue Cross a "private sector" industry. Do you want to regulate their salaries and restrict their success?
80 % of what business?. Where? The line about the blimp is funny. Man, you sound like you want Socialism. Cuba will take you in if you like it that much. I lived there and let me tell you, it sucks when no one has anything for the sake of everyone being equal. Quoted:
We pay all those, now look into Horizon Blue Cross and their exec salaries? They have 80% of the business and have a Blimp, how much does that cost? And why? |
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I love how some people call it nazi socialism when Obama tries to "redistribute" your wealth that you've "earned" yet when a public sector employee refuses to give up what he has earned (through whatever avenue of earning it took), you call it greed. In a free country you are given the right to decide what you do for income and if you choose to work in a field that is contracted, your contract should be honored. No one forced anyone to take any job, but no one forced anyone to sign the contracts that these employees have either. A contract is a legally binding agreement and to refuse someone the right to negotiate their own salary is no different than taking your hard earned wealth and giving it to someone who has none and earned none. If a city or state can't afford the contracts, then lay people off or make cuts elsewhere, its a big shit pie and we're all gonna take a bight eventually. However, it's not the resolvability of the work force to "give back" what they have contractually earned. I'm so sick and tired of this bullshit redbrick of state employees this and state employees that. Your upper level government is draining the state dry, NOT THE LOW LEVEL SERVICE PROVIDERS AND MUNICIPAL EMPLOYEES! For the last 60 years teachers, cops, firemen and public works employees have been negotiating contracts and I'd bet dollars to donuts that not 10% of the sheep bitching about it now, ever involved themselves in the negotiations or showed up to a counsel meeting to interject their opinion. But now, because the media and government brain washes you into thinking that you should have an opinion.... well, you have an opinion. This whole public employee scape goat campaign has been so sucessful that even the people that are usually smart enough to see through it have been propagandized and actually believe the bullshit.
Sit and spin people, sit and spin, just like your government leaders do. Just keep twisting the facts and believing everything your told so that it fits what you want to hear. Don't bother to investigate into the truth in order to make an educated decision as to what the real problems are, it's much easier to believe what your told and paint your picture to fit your taste. Meanwhile, your political power brokers, state administrators and state level government officials keep getting fat on your dime while you bitch about the people that are on your side. |
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There are so many ridiculous accusations on here that I can even respond properly. Basically the truth is teachers pay into the pension system just like most other public employees. It is common that an education contract have over 15 steps to top salary; each step is a year. The problem everyone has with tenure is crazy, Board of Education is a political position, if teachers (or any other public employee) had no protection every election would change the work force.
So many posts on here are very misinformed. Besides lets just be simple if a certain benefit was given as a part of a legal contract to an employee(s) why wouldn't that employee fight to keep what is rightfully theirs. |
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So many posts on here are very misinformed. Besides lets just be simple if a certain benefit was given as a part of a legal contract to an employee(s) why wouldn't that employee fight to keep what is rightfully theirs. Because the tap has run dry. There is no more money to leech from the taxpayers who pay for those workers. If, in order to cover the cost of these contractual obligations, taxes are raised to the point people can't afford to pay them and end up either foreclosed upon, or under a sheriff's sale for nonpayment of taxes, how will they get that pay?? Wouldn't it be better to take the cut(s) than to be put on the unemployment line?? |
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And here is the Heart of it JOHNQ. Public sector jobs are not supposed to fluctuate like that, there are no bonuses here just one CONTRACT (Legal, negotiated and BINDING) after another. When it all turns around I am sure the public employee won't get some mid-contract raise will they !!??
And the decision of taking the cut or being on the unemployment line is a decision that each Union faces every day in this state. That decision is really none of "John Q Publics concern." (unless its your contract that is trying to be violated) Many have made cuts and concessions but that never hits the paper, only the Union that says no to devastating offers are put out for the public to criticize. |
| There you go again Resteva....being an ass. Understand that the plan is to blame the .gov employee that actually does the job and not the manager that is a political appointee. The levels of government managers are in place, the rank and file are being laid off. Services are cut, favorites laugh. Go ask some Drs in private practice about how BCBS are? And they are not a private corporation, in NJ they are a not for profit organization. |
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And here is the Heart of it JOHNQ. Public sector jobs are not supposed to fluctuate like that, there are no bonuses here just one CONTRACT (Legal, negotiated and BINDING) after another. When it all turns around I am sure the public employee won't get some mid-contract raise will they !!?? And the decision of taking the cut or being on the unemployment line is a decision that each Union faces every day in this state. That decision is really none of "John Q Publics concern." (unless its your contract that is trying to be violated) Many have made cuts and concessions but that never hits the paper, only the Union that says no to devastating offers are put out for the public to criticize. DEAD ON! There are hundreds of public sector unions that have made tons of concessions since the economic recession and the problem is that the politicians keep coming back to the same well. You have to draw the line somewhere and when the state level government is still getting rich, living in mansions, buying vacation properties in the Hamptons and appointing their idiot friends and families to unheard and unseen positions, why should the lower level employees be the one's to be continually fed the shit sandwich? The media and political spin doctors have so many people convinced of flat out false information that its just impossible to correct the opinions with truth. Public employees on every level that I have contact with, contribute large amounts to their pensions. The problem on the pension side is that the State has not held up its end of the obligation for over a decade. They make it sound like the pension has been killing the state for years, but the truth is they haven't put a dime into the state pensions and the employees have since the beginning. The state added insult to injury by taking out a "loan" from the pension system of preposterous numbers and then never put back a dime of it. You want the taxes to stop increasing and the states budget to be balanced? Start at the top and eliminate the no show, political appointments. Get rid of the political power brokers that continue to play monopoly with your tax money and then merge the administrative positions to eliminate the redundancy. That's how you make progress. Taking 10% of $50k is not going to do didly shit! However, that fat ass in Trenton will convince you that the public employees on the lower levels of service are 100% to blame without ever providing one fact to prove it. |
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I'm not saying the public sector servants need to give up part of their salary.
There is too many chiefs. I'm all for it. Eliminate the overpaid administrators/etc. While your at it, pay yourself more money and cut my taxes. Im sure with the surplus of educated unemployed persons, they would be willing to settle for a happy mediun by taking the jobs of those currently in "power" at a reduced cost to the taxpayers. |
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Private sector, tax paying home owner here.
The priority in NJ (and Federally) should be to eliminate the welfare and socialized health care programs. These account for the largest chunk of misused tax payer money, and would provide the biggest savings. That being said, the NJ public education system is a failed experiment and its cost is not insignificant enough to ignore. In no way is public education worth the amount of money spent on it, in no way do unions help educate children, and in no way is the funding of the public education system sustainable. New Jersey taxpayers have every right to be infuriated at the mess the education system has become here. In order to break the cartel, every single superintendent and incompetent teacher should be fired on the spot, tenure should be eliminated, merit based pay should be instantiated, and private school vouchers should handed out. This will help to ensure competence in our teachers, accountability from our schools, and create a much needed check for the unbalanced power of the NJ public education system. I don't care if corrupt unions made deals with corrupt politicians and bet the farm that the money wouldn't run out. It has run out, the tax payers want heads to roll, and I can't blame them for looking at the corrupt NJ education system. The inmates have been running the asylum for too long, and I hold no sympathy for teachers who have blindly bargained themselves out of a career.  Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Wow not at all what I expected from the AR15 membership. You all sound like private sector snobs who are bitter now because the economy is down and the Teacher's still have a decent job. We live in NJ who the hell can support a family, own a house and maintain a comfortable life style on even the highest over estimate of $100,000 a year. That number is what the Gov wants you to think it is but really in order to make that kind of money you would have to be a teacher for 20 years or more. Teachers have over 17 steps that means it takes over 17 years to achieve top pay. Government type career most likely was taken because of security and benefits. Now that private sector is down does that mean that those government employees should be punished or retaliated against because it seems they have the better deal. so who in those 17 pay levels do you support firing in order to bring fiscal responsibility back to the NJ education system? those half way or higher up the pay scale that are miserable,shitty, good for nothing teachers, or those fresh out of college, trying hard, on the bottom end of the scale? in the private sector the answer is obvious.. but in the public sector....... also, here is a paraphrased exert from a typical government/union negotiation. NJ .gov - "hey NJEA, will you start contributing more to healthcare like every private citizen?" NJEA - "FUCK YOU CHRIS CHRISTIE, CHOKE ON A FAT SANDWICH AND DIE WHILE BEING RAPED BY DOGS" thats why unions in the public sector dont work. you can not negotiate with a government that has no fucking money at all. because anything you "get", you are stealing from the NJ taxpayer and tomorrows NJ taxpayer. |
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Sorry if I hit a nerve, but I stand by what I wrote.
From having read many of your previous posts it is clear to me you resent those individuals who are above your pay scale. By the way, you have every right to feel that way. Quoted:
There you go again Resteva....being an ass. Understand that the plan is to blame the .gov employee that actually does the job and not the manager that is a political appointee. The levels of government managers are in place, the rank and file are being laid off. Services are cut, favorites laugh. Go ask some Drs in private practice about how BCBS are? And they are not a private corporation, in NJ they are a not for profit organization. |
| nothing to do about payscale....I don't like kiss asses...Had a friend that worked for the red cross, her bosses were the biggest laziest ass kissers. When they came out for an emergency it was a joke..now the Salvation Army...they are awesome. If I had stayed in NNJ I would be making 2X what I make now...down here, where I grew up...it is all whose ass you kiss...I don;t I do my job. When I am off duty, I still do it...the asskissers don;t do it on duty let alone off |
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NJ .gov - "hey NJEA, will you start contributing more to healthcare like every private citizen?" NJEA - "FUCK YOU CHRIS CHRISTIE, CHOKE ON A FAT SANDWICH AND DIE WHILE BEING RAPED BY DOGS" thats why unions in the public sector dont work. you can not negotiate with a government that has no fucking money at all. because anything you "get", you are stealing from the NJ taxpayer and tomorrows NJ taxpayer. No see, that's what Christie and his spin doctors want you to believe AND YOU'VE CLEARLY BOUGHT IT HOOK, LINE AND SINKER! The truth is that most of the public sector unions have already given concessions "to the cause" including, but not limited to; forgoing contractual raises, paying for contractually compensated benefits, paying more for benefits than the current contract stipulates, forgoing overtime payment, reducing sick time sell backs, reducing personal and vacation time compensation, etc... The problem is that the people that don't care to do their homework and actually look into the truth, don't ever hear about that as their being spoon fed bullshit by their great white hope, King Christie. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know the exact details of what teacher's unions have conceded, but I do know what Police and Fire Unions have given back and I can tell you that no matter what we give, its never enough and the negotiations are NEVER done in good faith on the side of the state. They're never publicized or made public either. The politicians make promise after promise and never keep a single one then just keep coming back, keep making threats and keep dishing the blame for all the state's troubles on our backs with nothing but false information. Then right after we give them what they want, they turn around and dump millions into some backdoor low priority project that you never hear about, or they come back and threaten to lay off again just to try to get more... Eventually you have to stand your ground and call their card. The public school system is without question broken and is clearly the number one cause of increasing taxes and state financial problems, however the true facts will prove that not even the highest paid classroom teachers are the real cause. The cause is the widespread redundancy of administration and multiple appointed school officials that not only suck the system dry with inflated salaries and multiple pensions, but dump millions of dollars of appropriated funding into programs and pet projects that have been proven failures. The real problems are the misappropriated and pilfered funds that have been robbed from the state pension systems by greedy government officials and then never returned by the state. The decades that have gone by in which the municipal governments and state government has been given a "free pass" on making legally bound contributions to those pension systems which are now drastically underfunded and on the verge of complete collapse. They don't tell you about all that because that would be the truth and would distract you from what they want you to believe which is that the cops, fireman and teachers of NJ have sunk the budget. How can public employees be expected to continue to "give back" contractually binding compensation when the state won't even guarantee their own money? Police and Fire personnel pay 8.5% of their salary every year into their pension system without option. That contribution alone has been the only contribution that has been made to our pension system for over 10 years and even at that, even with the state failing to keep their end of the bargain, it still would have been solvent had the state government not "borrowed" billions from it and then never paid it back. Federal courts have demanded that the state make its payments, but King Christie continues to refuse. He just paints us the problem and sits back and laughs while his puppets praise him. No one wants to do the work or investigate the truth, that's the fuckin problem here. Everyone simply takes what their given by the government sponsored media and then runs off making their opinion based on false and / or flawed logic. If your going to have a dam opinion and then past it all over the internet, at least base your opinion on truth rather than resembling the kool-aid drinking subject that the king wants you to be. It's really amazing that a group of people that have such a self inflated, strong affinity for refuting big government would gulp down the bullshit by the shovel full so readily and so willingly. I guess it just goes to show just how weak and lazy this states population has become. |
| In my town a year ago they laid off officers to secure consessions, 6 months ago they knew they would have to lay off more, they kept quiet, they just laid of 13 more, now the department is down 1/3 in manpower. They ar going to online policing, a big difference from community policing. The Deputy Mayor did recuse himself, he had recently been arrested for DUI by this department. He is not the only Republican to be arrested by this department. |
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There are so many ridiculous accusations on here that I can even respond properly. Basically the truth is teachers pay into the pension system just like most other public employees. It is common that an education contract have over 15 steps to top salary; each step is a year. The problem everyone has with tenure is crazy, Board of Education is a political position, if teachers (or any other public employee) had no protection every election would change the work force. So many posts on here are very misinformed. Besides lets just be simple if a certain benefit was given as a part of a legal contract to an employee(s) why wouldn't that employee fight to keep what is rightfully theirs. Ok Troll,how much do you pay for your "Cadillac Health Plan" ?????? |
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Police layoffs are happening all around the state bro. It's mostly kept quiet, the only layoffs that got real attention was the Camden City layoffs and that got national attention (not that it made a difference). Shit, even Conan made a joke about the Camden layoffs on the day it was official. In some cases, there really isn't any other option. You can't pay people if there's no money in to back the check, sometimes its just that simple. Believe it or not, there really are some local politicians that are inherently honest and truly have the best interest of the municipality at heart. Unfortunately in this economy and with the completely irresponsible spending of the state, these municipalities that would otherwise be completely self sufficient and have no trouble affording the services they provide, are forced to cut services to keep up with the funneling of their taxes into shit holes like Camden. Meanwhile Camden gets a shit ton of services that they can't afford, collect 10% of their resident's taxes and then beg borrow and steal for more. The city asked for a $500 per year tax increase to save 30 to 40 Law Enforcement and Fire personnel and the same residents that cried and bitched about losing them nearly burnt city hall down in protest of the tax raise. So who's to blame there? Those assholes have been getting basically free police, fire and ambulance services for 10 years (the last time taxes were increased AT ALL in Camden) and now that its time to buck up, they want no parts of it.
While on the topic, Camden got $115 million in 2010 from the state. They were scheduled to get $122 million, but the state punished them and withheld $7 million of it because they were spending it irresponsibly.... Yeah, $7 million out of $122, that was the punishment.... That $115 mil WAS NOT enough to pay the bills??? What the hell did it pay for, were did it all go you ask? I can guarantee you it didn't pay to pave an F'n road because you'll need a new kidney if you drive through the city more than once. The schools in Camden have about a 30% graduation rate and the kids that are even remotely capable of learning anything, are shipped off to Pennsauken, Cherry Hill and Gloucester City to pollute their schools.... So where did all the money go? Same questions go for cities like Newark, Trenton, Jersey City, and all the other toilets in this state that the governor's office continues to flush money into as they rip it away from the towns that actually collect better than 90% of their tax base. Now that Camden laid off half of its PD, I bet they still get over $120 Million next year from the state. So is it really the right thing to do, laying off the service providers of the towns, boroughs, city's and villages that actually pay their taxes and enjoy their safety and security? NO, cut the state aid to the toilets that are pissing it away and redistribute it back to the towns that pay for it. DONE, PROBLEMS SOLVED! Can Camden get any worse? They reap what they sow there and if it does get worse, its their own fault and their own responsibility to correct. |
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There are so many ridiculous accusations on here that I can even respond properly. Basically the truth is teachers pay into the pension system just like most other public employees. It is common that an education contract have over 15 steps to top salary; each step is a year. The problem everyone has with tenure is crazy, Board of Education is a political position, if teachers (or any other public employee) had no protection every election would change the work force. So many posts on here are very misinformed. Besides lets just be simple if a certain benefit was given as a part of a legal contract to an employee(s) why wouldn't that employee fight to keep what is rightfully theirs. Ok Troll,how much do you pay for your "Cadillac Health Plan" ?????? Every single state employee pays AT LEAST 1.5% of their salary toward their "Cadillac Health Plan," whatever that means. EVERY SINGLE ONE! It's state law, stop commenting if you don't know what the hell your talking about. No one gets free health care anymore, NO ONE. While that percentage may or may not be as much as you pay in whatever job you have, it is payment and that = not "free" (even though it was never free). I'm not speaking for teachers, but for Police Officers and fireman, salary minus 1.5% for benefits and other deductions for pensions puts the overall average compensation package right on par with the private sector compensation for similar positions IN SOUTH JERSEY. As I stated before, the North is a totally different ball game. |
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NJ .gov - "hey NJEA, will you start contributing more to healthcare like every private citizen?" NJEA - "FUCK YOU CHRIS CHRISTIE, CHOKE ON A FAT SANDWICH AND DIE WHILE BEING RAPED BY DOGS" thats why unions in the public sector dont work. you can not negotiate with a government that has no fucking money at all. because anything you "get", you are stealing from the NJ taxpayer and tomorrows NJ taxpayer. No see, that's what Christie and his spin doctors want you to believe AND YOU'VE CLEARLY BOUGHT IT HOOK, LINE AND SINKER! The truth is that most of the public sector unions have already given concessions "to the cause" including, but not limited to; forgoing contractual raises, paying for contractually compensated benefits, paying more for benefits than the current contract stipulates, forgoing overtime payment, reducing sick time sell backs, reducing personal and vacation time compensation, etc... The problem is that the people that don't care to do their homework and actually look into the truth, don't ever hear about that as their being spoon fed bullshit by their great white hope, King Christie. <<snip>> No one wants to do the work or investigate the truth, that's the fuckin problem here. Everyone simply takes what their given by the government sponsored media and then runs off making their opinion based on false and / or flawed logic. If your going to have a dam opinion and then past it all over the internet, at least base your opinion on truth rather than resembling the kool-aid drinking subject that the king wants you to be. It's really amazing that a group of people that have such a self inflated, strong affinity for refuting big government would gulp down the bullshit by the shovel full so readily and so willingly. I guess it just goes to show just how weak and lazy this states population has become. you ducked the question my rank and file friend. how can a public sector union reasonably negotiate with a state that is constitutionally required to balance its budget? I suppose in exchange for your yearly contracted raises, which the private sector has not been assured in years, you want the .gov to shut down NJ transit, or some other critical budget line item that keeps tax dollars flowing into this state. Quoted:
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There are so many ridiculous accusations on here that I can even respond properly. Basically the truth is teachers pay into the pension system just like most other public employees. It is common that an education contract have over 15 steps to top salary; each step is a year. The problem everyone has with tenure is crazy, Board of Education is a political position, if teachers (or any other public employee) had no protection every election would change the work force. So many posts on here are very misinformed. Besides lets just be simple if a certain benefit was given as a part of a legal contract to an employee(s) why wouldn't that employee fight to keep what is rightfully theirs. Ok Troll,how much do you pay for your "Cadillac Health Plan" ?????? Every single state employee pays AT LEAST 1.5% of their salary toward their "Cadillac Health Plan," whatever that means. EVERY SINGLE ONE! It's state law, stop commenting if you don't know what the hell your talking about. No one gets free health care anymore, NO ONE. While that percentage may or may not be as much as you pay in whatever job you have, it is payment and that = not "free" (even though it was never free). I'm not speaking for teachers, but for Police Officers and fireman, salary minus 1.5% for benefits and other deductions for pensions puts the overall average compensation package right on par with the private sector compensation for similar positions IN SOUTH JERSEY. As I stated before, the North is a totally different ball game. I didn't know we had private firefighters on the east cost. I assumed that practice fell out of use around the end of the tamminy hall days in NYC. your saying 750 dollars a year, out of say, 50,000, is enough for you to pay into comprehensive medical, dental, vision, and every kind of elective surgery procedure coverage available? your really claiming that folks in south jersey in the private sector law enforcement and firefighter communities contribute no more then that for lesser or equal coverage plans? i know your cadillac healthcare most likely covers marijuana, but you need to lay off that shit and loosen the tinfoil hat stamped with whatever local union number you are a blind member of. 800 million was ripped out of an untouchable section of the budget last year, and the state is still in the fucking hole. tell the collective where they can permanently shave off the billions required to satisfy the unions, and people will listen.. But stop harping on all those "kickbacks" to admin officials and what not, because all of those kickbacks ever made to every politician in this state doesn't come close to satisfying the tab that the unions hold over the taxpayer. |
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I didn't duck any questions at all. Administrators have been negotiating with employees for centuries, this isn't new... What are you, kidding me? This is like arguing with a severe head trauma patient. What does NJ Transit have to do with this? NJ Transit creates its own revenue and doesn't have anything to do with the keeping tax dollars flowing "into the state." Your defeated and simply grasping at straws now because you clearly have zero fact to add to this discussion.
I can appreciate someone that has a differing opinion based on fact, but someone that simply forms their opinion based on hearsay, nonsense and propaganda is nothing but a lazy zero. At least do some homework if your going to try to debate someone like me, who has done the home work and knows the facts. And yes, there are ABSOLUTELY private sector fireman on the East coast. Just because your sand buried head doesn't see them, doesn't mean they don't exist. Have you ever been to an oil or fuel refinery, Nuke plant or how about a timber plant? Don't try to make yourself sound smart with stupid smart ass comments, it only makes you sound even more moronic than you already have proven yourself. Your logic is flawed because your numbers are arbitrary. None of the numbers in terms of salary, that you applied to this thread are realistic or relative. You no nothing about the factual numbers that we're talking about here and you are now just simply throwing in anything that you think sounds like it might make your point or that you think you can convince people sounds legit. None of it is, and you have not provided anything to this debate that has any fact in it what-so-ever. "elective surgery, comprehensive medical, vision and dental" you don't have one singe fact about municipal Police and Fire health care, you simply rambled off a bunch of bullshit that has no truth to it. You've been told that we get some secret super health care plan for free, so you believe it rather than checking into it. Yes, I get pretty descent health care and I get it at a very fair cost to me, but I also have job that demands quite a bit more physical and psychological exertion than your average career. (I already know the comment here, "you picked the job, quit if you don't like it" Typical angry little cry baby response from those that wish they had made better choices in life)... With that, health care is a 100% negotiated compensatory item in a contract JUST LIKE SALARY. Some towns require quite a bit more payment into health care than others, some require the state mandatory 1.5%. It's up to the specific town to determine what is economically feasible based on the rest of the contract and the discounts received on health care from multiple employee enrollment and coverage limits. A municipal Police Officers health care in the town next yours, costs you NOTHING! That's why your argument is completely WORTHLESS! You just don't get it. You are under some insane presumption that "The State", as if it's paying all the salaries out of its own budgets, is sinking because of municipal spending. BULLSHIT! If you knew anything about municipal budgeting, tax revenue and county and state entitlements, you wouldn't be having this debate in the manor that you are and I'm not going to do all the work for you. You can go do the work and find the truth for yourself. However what I will tell you is that many (and I mean a very large majority) of the municipalities in this state could be completely self sufficient without any state aid, if the state didn't require more than 1/2 of their tax base to redistribute into other non collecting cities. But once again, you know nothing but what your told because your too lazy, too stupid or both to go and do your own homework and figure out the truth. You just believe what your told. If you read my post and COMPREHENDED it, you would have understood that I was tallying health care and salary as one and as COMPENSATION for a specific duty. In South Jersey, the median salary of a topped out Patrol level Police Officer is about $65,000, subtract 8.5% for pension contribution and 1.5% for health care and the total compensation is about the same as what a private sector, armed security officer with similar duties is compensated in total minus his contribution to S.S. and health care. The average median salary of a private sector security officer with similar duties as a Police Officer is in the $75-80,000 range and is considered an entry level administrative position or "supervisory" position. Now, you do the math genius, that or you can simply continue to drink the Kool-Aid and just believe what your told like the good little sheep you have proven to be. Either way, I suggest you just stop posting until you know what the hell your talking about. |
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I didn't duck any questions at all. Administrators have been negotiating with employees for centuries, this isn't new... What are you, kidding me? This is like arguing with a severe head trauma patient. What does NJ Transit have to do with this? NJ Transit creates its own revenue and doesn't have anything to do with the keeping tax dollars flowing "into the state." Your defeated and simply grasping at straws now because you clearly have zero fact to add to this discussion. I can appreciate someone that has a differing opinion based on fact, but someone that simply forms their opinion based on hearsay, nonsense and propaganda is nothing but a lazy zero. At least do some homework if your going to try to debate someone like me, who has done the home work and knows the facts. And yes, there are ABSOLUTELY private sector fireman on the East coast. Just because your sand buried head doesn't see them, doesn't mean they don't exist. Have you ever been to an oil or fuel refinery, Nuke plant or how about a timber plant? Don't try to make yourself sound smart with stupid smart ass comments, it only makes you sound even more moronic than you already have proven yourself. Your logic is flawed because your numbers are arbitrary. None of the numbers in terms of salary, that you applied to this thread are realistic or relative. You no nothing about the factual numbers that we're talking about here and you are now just simply throwing in anything that you think sounds like it might make your point or that you think you can convince people sounds legit. None of it is, and you have not provided anything to this debate that has any fact in it what-so-ever. "elective surgery, comprehensive medical, vision and dental" you don't have one singe fact about municipal Police and Fire health care, you simply rambled off a bunch of bullshit that has no truth to it. You've been told that we get some secret super health care plan for free, so you believe it rather than checking into it. Yes, I get pretty descent health care and I get it at a very fair cost to me, but I also have job that demands quite a bit more physical and psychological exertion than your average career. (I already know the comment here, "you picked the job, quit if you don't like it" Typical angry little cry baby response from those that wish they had made better choices in life)... With that, health care is a 100% negotiated compensatory item in a contract JUST LIKE SALARY. Some towns require quite a bit more payment into health care than others, some require the state mandatory 1.5%. It's up to the specific town to determine what is economically feasible based on the rest of the contract and the discounts received on health care from multiple employee enrollment and coverage limits. A municipal Police Officers health care in the town next yours, costs you NOTHING! That's why your argument is completely WORTHLESS! You just don't get it. You are under some insane presumption that "The State", as if it's paying all the salaries out of its own budgets, is sinking because of municipal spending. BULLSHIT! If you knew anything about municipal budgeting, tax revenue and county and state entitlements, you wouldn't be having this debate in the manor that you are and I'm not going to do all the work for you. You can go do the work and find the truth for yourself. However what I will tell you is that many (and I mean a very large majority) of the municipalities in this state could be completely self sufficient without any state aid, if the state didn't require more than 1/2 of their tax base to redistribute into other non collecting cities. But once again, you know nothing but what your told because your too lazy, too stupid or both to go and do your own homework and figure out the truth. You just believe what your told. If you read my post and COMPREHENDED it, you would have understood that I was tallying health care and salary as one and as COMPENSATION for a specific duty. In South Jersey, the median salary of a topped out Patrol level Police Officer is about $65,000, subtract 8.5% for pension contribution and 1.5% for health care and the total compensation is about the same as what a private sector, armed security officer with similar duties is compensated in total minus his contribution to S.S. and health care. The average median salary of a private sector security officer with similar duties as a Police Officer is in the $75-80,000 range and is considered an entry level administrative position or "supervisory" position. Now, you do the math genius, that or you can simply continue to drink the Kool-Aid and just believe what your told like the good little sheep you have proven to be. Either way, I suggest you just stop posting until you know what the hell your talking about. 
I understand and comprehend your posts perfectly. You think a municipal police officer deserves to take home a larger chunk of his gross pay then a nuclear security officer. Why? And while I have your attention, maybe you can answer my original question instead of throwing around more personal attacks in a non-GD forum. What would you cut in State and Municipal budgets to pay for unfunded liabilities owed the Unions? |
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Once again, you are not reading. Either that or you have no ability to open your mind and eyes to anything other than your own flawed logic. Never once did I say I or any municipal officer "deserves more" than anyone else. That's not the point here and my opinion there is way to biased to be dualy legitament. I'm big enough to admit when my opinion is bias or faceless, aside from the fact that there is NO subjective way to determain deservance. All I said was the pay and compensation is very similar from private to public sectors which was in direct response to your claim that the public sector is so grossly over compensated vs the private sector. Now, you once again change the subject because your ego won't allow you to admit that you were wrong, jumped to conclusions with no real factual information and based your entire argument on bullshit that you were told by poor sources. You go ahead and try to twist it up one more time by miss quoting me because your realizing that this entire opinion of yours, is based on lies. To add insult to injury, you then insinuate that I have violated some AR15.com rule so that you can create your own escape as your ship sinks.
Once again, if you would read and comprehend, you would have already understood how I pose the majority of the budget be balanced. I'm not going to keep repeating myself just because your too lazy to read or too stubborn to understand. There is no need to "cut" essential programs and line items. Simply reducing the redistribution of taxes would filter millions back to the towns that actually pay for it. However, since you clearly have no understanding of how state and municipal government functions, and you just want shit cut, I guess in your little lonely world, taking jobs away and creating more poverty is a great way to fix the state of New Jersey..... Brutal dude, really, utterly brutal how sadly misinformed and missunderattod you really are |
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Oh and I didn't forget about your utter lack of understanding of what a state employee union is, here's another little piece of fact for you in case you have a little more room in that giant brain of yours.
There are over 500 municipalities in this state, mostly all having their own services and divisions of service. For the most part, they all have their own school systems, police departments, fire departments, public works departments, etc.... This isn't L.A. or Dallas, the average size for a PD in this state is probably around 30 officers with the low being 5-7 and the high being a couple hundred (not including county or state agencies). Police Unions have almost zero negotiating power when it comes to contract issues. It's illegal to strike or interfere with the function of government, so their only recourse when they feel an injustice has been done is to take advantage of their constitutional right to assemble and protest. The only state employee union that has any negotiating power is the teachers union and as I stated before, I don't know enough about the topic to debate it because I don't have any dealings with teachers unions. I actually agree that teachers are over compensated for the poor results they achieve, but as I stated, my opinion is not fact-full at this point. Other than that, Police unions for the most part, have no power of contract negotiations. In the 3 different Police Departments that I have worked for and hundreds that I have had direct contact with, the negotiations are done face to face between the elected official in charge of the PD and two or three members of the department. There is no secret room with big battle boards and back deal games being played. The primary function of a Police and Fire Union is to protect the legal rights of its members. They do that by providing assistance and lawyers when a member is mistreated, discriminated against or unjustly punished. You have this mythical idea of what a union is now a days and as much as I wish you were right, because if the unions were as strong and corrupt as you say, my future would be much more secure, your dead wrong. Quite the contrary actually, that's why we have something in this state called "binding arbitration." When there is no agreement between sides, the contract is taking to a state sponsored arbitrator who rules on the entire negotiated settlement. If the two parties can't come to an agreement, the arbitrator awards the agreement and his decision is legally binding. The arbitrator makes his decision based on factual economic studies and that decisions is what the contract becomes. There is no conspiracy between unions and passed governments and King Christie has not taken the people's side to correct this travesty of injustice. It's simple, Christie can't achieve his agenda when there are people trying to protect his targets. A union is nothing but a collection of the work force, an excercise in American freedom. You do realize that the American Constitution is much larger than just the 2nd Amendment right? Or is that the only freedom you care about because that's the only one that suits your agenda?? Since the unions are large and choose to excessive their right to assemble, they are a thorn in his side and therefor he has convince you and the majority of this state that they along with the state employees are the reason our state is fucked. No little smilies, no funny pictures to distract you, no internet speak... Just simple, hard facts. |