[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Canadian Service Rifle (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/18/2012 11:13:05 PM EDT
Some of our Canadian cousins 
They even have their own version of Greenie  (at approx 3.14)
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Some of our Canadian cousins
They even have their own version of Greenie (at approx 3.14)
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNlG2oLbuUUDUNNO WHAT YOU MEAN 
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Some good stuff here
http://www.dcra.ca/NSCC/NSCC%202011%20Rulebook%20201103021644.pdf |
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Nice range, probably military and looks like Connought One of the nicest ranges up there is General Vokes in Chilliwack, BC on the west coast. They have a very active service rifle group at this range. Check out the back drop. Mountain lions and black bears are some of the natural hazards encountered at the range. 
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Nice range, probably military and looks like Connought One of the nicest ranges up there is General Vokes in Chilliwack, BC on the west coast. They have a very active service rifle group at this range. Check out the back drop. Mountain lions and black bears are some of the natural hazards encountered at the range. http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc6/Jess10x/DSC00603.jpg Nice, It doesn't look very dissimilar to Ethan Allen range in Burlington, VT when we were there ETA: how come you Yanks don't do anything like this? |
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Having looked through those rules and our own I can see some workable stuff in both of them.
I don't see the Canadian shooters bleating about use of bipods and as I've said before, I can see no place for them in any SR matches, it is Service Rifle after all and not Practical Rifle. Why do we havea Practical Rifle class in Service Rifle when here is no Service Class in PracticalRifle. They really should be two different things. I see plenty of people in that video shooting off magazines with M14's and their 20rd mag, why can't the Armalon crowd here do the same and just get on with it? Why must we always revert to Practical Class for the Methuen Cup? The Canadians have a 2.5 kg min trigger weit, that's heavier than we have Scope magnification: I'm starting to become indifferent about this, although I wouldn't like to see a time when people,start using 20&25x etc. Forward grips: again as above, we've moved on and times have changed. As long as it's not used as a forward rest, it should be fine. Slings: I like the idea of the standard issue type for that type of firearm, no "TR" type slings and no slings that go over the back (unless it's an SA80 etc) There is also mention of any other shooting aid or support that may give an advantage or anything thats "not in the spirit". That would cover bipods, hand stops and dedicated shooting gloves and tacticool slings etc I also see their rapid fire sitting times are 10 secs shorter than ours. Again, I have no problem with that It's interesting that in our PR class, it's Nick who''s leading the way with an AR, no bipod but open mag scope and ball ammo, over and above everyone else with bolt guns, bipods and fancy ammo.... |
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(disclosure: I shoot service optic)
Personally I'd like the option to have a foregrip on my gun for service rifle but I like the other restrictions in Service optic. From what I can see "Practical Optic" is really the Open class, much like in PSG, and in a competition where there are strict rules on what you can and can't use it's nice to have the option to do what you like (so long as it's safe) and just shoot in a different class. I've considered moving to practical optic to get the AFG back and I've put it on my .22 to see how I get on with it again, with a view to maybe moving to practical optic next year. I think it improved my standing @100. Still won't use a bipod tho (I'm not that big a wuss even if I have a konus scope and a laser on my .22) |
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Would quick detachable Anschuts 'Target Rifle' type sling hooks be allowed, as they don't have them on proper Service Rifles?  No they wouldnt be allowed, but neither would any hook, unless it was an M16, M14 type with the original hook....and only if used on that rifle type |
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Interesting that semi-auto rifle magazine capacity is restricted to 5 rounds....  The legal limit for semi-auto long-guns in Canada is 5 rounds. However you can use 10 round handgun mags in long-guns as long as they are prescribed for handgun use. So what lots of Canadians do is buy 10 round AR mags that have stamped on them "for pistol use". Furthermore, the mags they use are only pinned, the pins being easy to move, so I am not sure how many pay real close attention to how many go into their mags. I remember being at a match up there a few years ago, shooting with police, military and civilians and I recall there were a lot of stages where larger cap mags were being used by all. |
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ETA: how come you Yanks don't do anything like this? This is probably pretty close to your service rifle although the distance is only to 100 yards. This is the NJ State Trooper - Patrol Rifle qualifier course of fire. I shot this match the other weekend. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AtSr2kaqAtDtdHc3ZTVwREFsbmkydHpaV2tpeW5BT2c&single=true&gid=5&output=html |
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I remember trying one of these several years ago, courtesy of a weapons demo, before they started showing up much on privately owned rifles.
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I remember trying one of these several years ago, courtesy of a weapons demo, before they started showing up much on privately owned rifles. Well they are the new issue vertical foregrips, Good for standing, but not so good as a bipod
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Well they are the new issue vertical foregrips, Good for standing, but not so good as a bipod It does shoot two small sticks out the bottom which seemed to work as a functional bipod on the A2. 
it's far to wobbly to be used as an efficient bipod, Also you can't adjust it to level the gun. It's better off leaving the legs in and using it as a forward monopod |
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it's far to wobbly to be used as an efficient bipod, Also you can't adjust it to level the gun. It's better off leaving the legs in and using it as a forward monopod Oh I use an AI and Harris - sure these aren't as good as a traditional bipod like that, but they worked for me. It's always been a limiting factor on many of these integral designs, like on the Steyr Scout, and probably the FAMAS, etc. They started turning up on AR-15s at my club a while after I originally saw one. In fact there might have been someone using one this Sunday with their AR at Bisley. Not ideal, but people seemed to manage. Mind you... that wasn't quite my intended point - whether or not they worked. No, since we were talking about "issued equipment", I wondered where these would stand?
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Quoted: I've considered moving to practical optic to get the AFG back and I've put it on my .22 to see how I get on with it again, with a view to maybe moving to practical optic next year. I think it improved my standing @100. Still won't use a bipod tho (I'm not that big a wuss even if I have a konus scope and a laser on my .22) Do you also use a sling? |
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it's far to wobbly to be used as an efficient bipod, Also you can't adjust it to level the gun. It's better off leaving the legs in and using it as a forward monopod Oh I use an AI and Harris - sure these aren't as good as a traditional bipod like that, but they worked for me. It's always been a limiting factor on many of these integral designs, like on the Steyr Scout, and probably the FAMAS, etc. They started turning up on AR-15s at my club a while after I originally saw one. In fact there might have been someone using one this Sunday with their AR at Bisley. Not ideal, but people seemed to manage. Mind you... that wasn't quite my intended point - whether or not they worked. No, since we were talking about "issued equipment", I wondered where these would stand?
Csr rules say no foregrips, vertical or angled, Been bought up many times before, I'd be up for using them too, helps my standing no end
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I can state with 100% certainty that those matches are held at Connaught Ranges and Primary Training Center (CRPTC) just west of Ottawa Ontario.
Your "Greenie" is our "HUNGRY" (Barney,) an avid M-14 guy, most likely the most knowledgeable M-14 shooter in Canada. He travels across our fair nation and runs clinics on both M-14 maintenance, but also shooting. The other gentleman interviewed is Tim. Between the two of them, they have kept Service rifle shooting running in Ontario. I have been to matches at CRPTC a number of times, including both the civilian national matches run by our own Dominion of Canada Rifle Association, and the Canadian Forces Small Arms Competition. I'll take a sec to toot my horn a bit, but was the runner up for the Queen's in 07, and have been top 50/top 10 several times. I've been on the Canadian Forces Combat Shooting Team to Bisley several times (5) and have a few gongs on the shelf from those experiences. That said, having been to the UK, I have a passing familiarity with your (somewhat restrictive ) firearms laws, and a high familiarity with Canadian firearms laws.
So, firstoff, legality of bringing your firearms across the pond. I suspect that there would not be a significant issue with this, but they, as variants of the AR-15 (even though they're just straight-pull bolt guns) would still be classified as Restricted firearms. I know hunters and target shooters bring their bolt-guns in all the time, but I'm NOT sure how to bring a restricted firearm into the country. I would suggest getting ahold of the NRA HQ at Bisley, and chat with them about what the process is for getting their TR rifles into Canada, and take that as a starting point before contacting anyone in Canada to figure out what the process would be for a Restricted firearm. Second. Magazines. Magazines are another ball of wax. Magazines specifically designed for a manually repeating firearm have no limit, however, your manual repeating firearm is an AR-15 variant, and I suspect that your magazines are actually just plain-jane AR-15 magazines. So. If that is the case, and the magazine is one that was designed for use in a center-fire semi-automatic rifle, despite it being used in your manually repeating rifle, it will still be limited to a 5 round capacity. Posession of a magazine designed to be used in a center-fire semi-auto rifle that holds more than 5 rounds is equivelant under Canadian law to posession of a prohibited weapon (yes, the magazine is deemed to be a weapon) and could lead to up to 10 years in prison. I can go into more detail, and there is a way to get a legal 10 round AR-15 magazine in Canada (I have several of them) but importing your 30 round mags will get you in bad-ju-ju with the customs people. So, suppose there are major hurdles in bringing your guns over, and you have to source 5 round mags when you get here (or pin yours before you come over...pop rivets are the usual solution here.) What can you do instead? Well, chances are, if you go to one of those matches, you'll be surrounded by folks who own AR's...most of them will own at least one, many will own 2, some will own more than 2. Knowing a bunch of those people in the video, almost any of those guys who has a spare rifle would be more than happy to lend you the rifle to shoot the match, so long as you paid him back for the ammo (and maybe cleaned it afterwards too!) If you're genuinely interested in visiting one of those matches, the easiest solution might be to get ahold of the match directors (Barney/Tim) and see if you can borrow a rifle when you get here, and get a quick walk-back zero to get it sighted to you. If you showed up here, I'd have a rifle, mags, and whatever else you'd need to shoot with if you wanted to shoot a match here. I arranged exactly this about 5 years ago when a team of sailors from the USS Wasp came ashore in Halifax, and we brought them out to a Service Rifle match...borrowed guns, and off they went. BBQ afterwards and everything. http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/econolodge/IMG_44.JPG http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/econolodge/IMG_448.JPG http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/coffee/pics/bedford.jpg If you're seriously interested, drop me an e-mail at [email protected] and I'll work with you to make it happen. Of interest, I'm possibly headed to the UK again this summer, Bisley is good fun! NS |
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I can state with 100% certainty that those matches are held at Connaught Ranges and Primary Training Center (CRPTC) just west of Ottawa Ontario. Your "Greenie" is our "HUNGRY" (Barney,) an avid M-14 guy, most likely the most knowledgeable M-14 shooter in Canada. He travels across our fair nation and runs clinics on both M-14 maintenance, but also shooting. The other gentleman interviewed is Tim. Between the two of them, they have kept Service rifle shooting running in Ontario. I have been to matches at CRPTC a number of times, including both the civilian national matches run by our own Dominion of Canada Rifle Association, and the Canadian Forces Small Arms Competition. I'll take a sec to toot my horn a bit, but was the runner up for the Queen's in 07, and have been top 50/top 10 several times. I've been on the Canadian Forces Combat Shooting Team to Bisley several times (5) and have a few gongs on the shelf from those experiences. That said, having been to the UK, I have a passing familiarity with your (somewhat restrictive ) firearms laws, and a high familiarity with Canadian firearms laws.
So, firstoff, legality of bringing your firearms across the pond. I suspect that there would not be a significant issue with this, but they, as variants of the AR-15 (even though they're just straight-pull bolt guns) would still be classified as Restricted firearms. I know hunters and target shooters bring their bolt-guns in all the time, but I'm NOT sure how to bring a restricted firearm into the country. I would suggest getting ahold of the NRA HQ at Bisley, and chat with them about what the process is for getting their TR rifles into Canada, and take that as a starting point before contacting anyone in Canada to figure out what the process would be for a Restricted firearm. Second. Magazines. Magazines are another ball of wax. Magazines specifically designed for a manually repeating firearm have no limit, however, your manual repeating firearm is an AR-15 variant, and I suspect that your magazines are actually just plain-jane AR-15 magazines. So. If that is the case, and the magazine is one that was designed for use in a center-fire semi-automatic rifle, despite it being used in your manually repeating rifle, it will still be limited to a 5 round capacity. Posession of a magazine designed to be used in a center-fire semi-auto rifle that holds more than 5 rounds is equivelant under Canadian law to posession of a prohibited weapon (yes, the magazine is deemed to be a weapon) and could lead to up to 10 years in prison. I can go into more detail, and there is a way to get a legal 10 round AR-15 magazine in Canada (I have several of them) but importing your 30 round mags will get you in bad-ju-ju with the customs people. So, suppose there are major hurdles in bringing your guns over, and you have to source 5 round mags when you get here (or pin yours before you come over...pop rivets are the usual solution here.) What can you do instead? Well, chances are, if you go to one of those matches, you'll be surrounded by folks who own AR's...most of them will own at least one, many will own 2, some will own more than 2. Knowing a bunch of those people in the video, almost any of those guys who has a spare rifle would be more than happy to lend you the rifle to shoot the match, so long as you paid him back for the ammo (and maybe cleaned it afterwards too!) If you're genuinely interested in visiting one of those matches, the easiest solution might be to get ahold of the match directors (Barney/Tim) and see if you can borrow a rifle when you get here, and get a quick walk-back zero to get it sighted to you. If you showed up here, I'd have a rifle, mags, and whatever else you'd need to shoot with if you wanted to shoot a match here. I arranged exactly this about 5 years ago when a team of sailors from the USS Wasp came ashore in Halifax, and we brought them out to a Service Rifle match...borrowed guns, and off they went. BBQ afterwards and everything. http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/econolodge/IMG_44.JPG http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/econolodge/IMG_448.JPG http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/coffee/pics/bedford.jpg If you're seriously interested, drop me an e-mail at [email protected] and I'll work with you to make it happen. Of interest, I'm possibly headed to the UK again this summer, Bisley is good fun! NS Hey fella, Thanks for getting in touch 
Obviously Striker George has passed my questions on to you, so thanks for that. What you do is exactly what we do over here and that's good to see as there really don't seem to be that many of us in the big wide world that do this kind of shooting. As I said, I would be interested in making it happen and I have spoken to several here who would like to get in on it as well. Obviously some of us would prefer to bring our own guns over, but if that were to be too restrictive then your offer of loan guns would be greatly appreciated. Likewise, if any of you fancy a trip over here I'm sure we can accommodate you. Our Imperial Civilian SR championship is held at Bisley, this year from 27 June to 1 July. If you're already coming over, or fancy coming over earlier to take part then drop me a line. Or if you are over this year anyhow, then why not get in contact and say hi. I'll look into the possibilities and maybe try and speak to your authorities about classification of our rifles |
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Bradders..NavyShooter was the first person I thought of that could answer your questions and that knows how to use a computer! Thanks to NS for posting. when I shot service rifle a few years ago I shot with NS...he's a great guy and just the person to help you folks out. |
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Bradders..NavyShooter was the first person I thought of that could answer your questions and that knows how to use a computer!
Thanks to NS for posting. when I shot service rifle a few years ago I shot with NS...he's a great guy and just the person to help you folks out.
Thanks for putting us in touch, I've now made contact with your man Brad (good bloody name there  ) and will hopefully plan something.
Rest assured that if and when we do come over, there will be absolutely no BBSers in our party. We wouldn't want to pollute your beautiful country
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ETA: how come you Yanks don't do anything like this? This is probably pretty close to your service rifle although the distance is only to 100 yards. This is the NJ State Trooper - Patrol Rifle qualifier course of fire. I shot this match the other weekend. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AtSr2kaqAtDtdHc3ZTVwREFsbmkydHpaV2tpeW5BT2c&single=true&gid=5&output=html We have shot an international/postal comp against the Yanks with 2 CoFs covering our SR and their SR, shot on the same weekend a few years ago. Our leg shot at Bisley, the US leg at Rio Salado. They cheated and we came second by a few points
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ETA: how come you Yanks don't do anything like this? This is probably pretty close to your service rifle although the distance is only to 100 yards. This is the NJ State Trooper - Patrol Rifle qualifier course of fire. I shot this match the other weekend. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AtSr2kaqAtDtdHc3ZTVwREFsbmkydHpaV2tpeW5BT2c&single=true&gid=5&output=html We have shot an international/postal comp against the Yanks with 2 CoFs covering our SR and their SR, shot on the same weekend a few years ago. Our leg shot at Bisley, the US leg at Rio Salado. They cheated and we came second by a few points Maybe so, but I have the trophy. There again, we beat the Appleseeders in AZ last year in the machinegun match and they stole our trophy and are showing it off on Facebook 
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ETA: how come you Yanks don't do anything like this? This is probably pretty close to your service rifle although the distance is only to 100 yards. This is the NJ State Trooper - Patrol Rifle qualifier course of fire. I shot this match the other weekend. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AtSr2kaqAtDtdHc3ZTVwREFsbmkydHpaV2tpeW5BT2c&single=true&gid=5&output=html We have shot an international/postal comp against the Yanks with 2 CoFs covering our SR and their SR, shot on the same weekend a few years ago. Our leg shot at Bisley, the US leg at Rio Salado. They cheated and we came second by a few points Maybe so, but I have the trophy. There again, we beat the Appleseeders in AZ last year in the machinegun match and they stole our trophy and are showing it off on Facebook Bastards. I max-ed that stage. but my loader nearly broke his leg on the run.
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We need to make contact with these people and organise a trip to Canuckaville Wise idea! I count a few Canuks among my kin. The Canadian gun owners recently won a battle to have the government's idiotic "long gun registry" scrapped as it had NO deterrant effect on crime. On you trip, you might ask them to visit a handgun range as handguns are still lawful to own in Canada. The Canadians also have access to imported semi auto rifles that we can't get here in the USA; they have Israeli Tavors, Chinese-made semi-autos & ammo (a no-go here), etc. You might consider visiting during the summer though (brrrrrrr). Good folks the Canadians! |
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Having looked through those rules and our own I can see some workable stuff in both of them. The Canadians have a 2.5 kg min trigger weit, that's heavier than we have If trigger parts are an issue & you can't source them in the UK, I don't think it would be difficult to obtain those in Canada. I'll have to ask my cousin (who recently took advantage of dual citizenship & moved to Florida) about it, but I don't think you need to show an FAC to buy small parts in Canada. The Canadians are not tolerant of magazines over 5/10 roundss or silencers though. Leave those on the island. |
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Having looked through those rules and our own I can see some workable stuff in both of them. The Canadians have a 2.5 kg min trigger weit, that's heavier than we have If trigger parts are an issue & you can't source them in the UK, I don't think it would be difficult to obtain those in Canada. I'll have to ask my cousin (who recently took advantage of dual citizenship & moved to Florida) about it, but I don't think you need to show an FAC to buy small parts in Canada. The Canadians are not tolerant of magazines over 5/10 roundss or silencers though. Leave those on the island. You don`t need to show a license to buy any parts, including things like barrels, in Canada. However, shipping parts out of Canada that have come via the US is a big NO NO, and your cousin would be advised not to do that unless he wants to see the wrong side of the ATF. Quoted:.
You might consider visiting during the summer though (brrrrrrr). There`s an old Canadian joke, how do you tell an American in Canada during the summer? The answer: They`re the ones driving around with ski racks on their cars. While not Florida, parts of Canada get very hot in the summer. If you head out to the Okanagan in British Columbia it`s semi-desert and will often hit temperatures of 90+. From a climate perspective I would guess that in most parts the Canadian summers are much nicer than the ones they have in Britain. If you look at a map, the southern tip of Britain is on the same latitude as the most northern regions of Newfoundland and Labrador. Most of south eastern Canada runs along 44th parallel, cities like Toronto are on the same latitude as Nice in southern France. |
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I'll have to ask, but I think my cousin simply sold everything in Canada (including their house) while still living there & has since re-purchased copies of the guns he wanted after living in Florida for 6 months or something, as he is a dual citizen.
He did tell me about some sort of crazy restrictions on the Brit FAL he owned in Canada (nearly impossible to take it out shooting without permission). It also sounded like the semi-auto FAL configurations in Canada (while OK in Canada) might have been viewed a former/current MG in the U.S., where one must start with a new dedicated semi auto receiver - no exceptions. I don't think he bothered buying another FAL after living in the U.S., as the ranges are not that big where he is now. He did buy a Glock though & he was much happier with the U.S. buying experience vs the hoops he had to jump through up north. Odd about the import restrictions you mention though: I bought a parts kit (sans frame and barrel) for a Canadian-made clone of the Sig 226 in the 1990s. Still have to find a frame here in the U.S for it. I recall the parts being shipped directly from there. Is ITAR now prohibiting that? |
