Posted: 6/9/2010 2:16:08 PM EDT
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/09/cumbria-shootings-police-inquiries-bird Time to grab your ankles chaps.....  |
| I can understand them looking into how he was granted a FAC. However if there is any blame to be proportioned, it should be the police force who granted it in the first place. I just cant understand why when one loon does something. The blame get forced onto other legitimate shooters. |
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Quoted: I can understand them looking into how he was granted a FAC. However if there is any blame to be proportioned, it should be the police force who granted it in the first place. I just cant understand why when one loon does something. The blame get forced onto other legitimate shooters. Because when they granted it he wasn't a loon? |
| It seems a bit strange to me. I know you cant trust what's been in the press 100%. However it does sound like he was a few beers short of a six pack for some time (telling prostitute's he was going to kill people back in 2005. Long running joke with friends that he had a list of people to off and threatening people that he would shoot them when drunk. Even though they though it was said in jest ). I know he had had a SGC for 20 years. However he only had a FAC from 2007. He wasn't a member of the NRA or a club. The fact that he had previous convictions for theft and fraud in the 90's should have rung alarm bells that he wasn't a trustworthy character...............Well you would have thought it should have? |
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Quoted: It seems a bit strange to me. I know you cant trust what's been in the press 100%. However it does sound like he was a few beers short of a six pack for some time (telling prostitute's he was going to kill people back in 2005. Long running joke with friends that he had a list of people to off and threatening people that he would shoot them when drunk. Even though they though it was said in jest ). I know he had had a SGC for 20 years. However he only had a FAC from 2007. He wasn't a member of the NRA or a club. The fact that he had previous convictions for theft and fraud in the 90's should have rung alarm bells that he wasn't a trustworthy character...............Well you would have thought it should have? I thought he inherited the guns from his dad 12 years ago? Don't know about the threats etc, first Ive heard of that. As for the convictions...Rehabilitation of offenders act etc. Loads of people have been in trouble with the law for non violent offences. It shouldn't exclude them from owning firearms. |
| He inherited the shotguns . However the chief officer at his local force was on BBC confirming that he has only held a FAC from 2007 and that the guns he inherited were from 1998 some 12 years ago when he only held a SGC. There was a full article in the mirror in regards of the threats as a long running joke and some prostitute that has come forward saying that he told her in 2005 that he hated his life and was going to go on a killing spree. I can understand were you are coming from on the Rehabilitation of offenders act. However I have herd of people being knocked back on a FAC for drink driving offences years ago. Reason being that they were deemed irresponsible or untrustworthy. This whole thing makes me feel sick to the pit of my stomach the disregard of life he had. Nothing is ever going to bring those people back and restricting firers to legitimate FAC holders wont make the world a safer place. You only need to look at the crime stats with hand guns after the 97 pistol ban. |
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I thought this thread was going to be about 50 cal  Lol . Unfortunatly the guy at Bohica arms wont ship to the UK. Already went down that route wha I looked at there .50 cal uppers. Apparantly they wont grant him an export permit on .50 You won't get any fifties out of the states these days. Its been that way for quite some time. In this case however they've actually done you a favour. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Cameron also gave the first indication of what will be involved in the official Home Office gun law review in the wake of the shootings. He expected it to include mental health issues such as '"follow-up checks" for licensed gun owners and police visits to people who kept guns and ammunition at home. But he said he recalled police evidence from when he served on the Commons home affairs select committee that there was "virtually no leakage" of legally held guns into the illegal black market. "If we are looking for what the problem is, it is clearly that in our society we have a huge number of guns that we need to get rid of. Clearly, there was an appalling problem in this case, where, as I have said, a switch flicked in someone's head. We cannot legislate against that, but let us look at every aspect and ensure that we have the robust laws that we need," he said. The government has promised to lead a national debate on the gun laws with MPs debating the issue before the end of July.  ).My guess is that in order to have any chance of being effective you'd have to interview/ review every year.. they'd never be able to manage it without at least 5x as many officers -probably more. Also, how would they meaningfully evaluate. No disrespect, but many Firearms dept. staff don't even know that much about shooting or ballistics.. to do this, you'd be asking them to become mental health specialists as well, or would there be some kind of comitee evaluation board reviewing each application/ follow-up? As for #2 - what does he mean by this? Illegally held guns is my reading, but it has been interpreted otherwise elsewhere. I do wonder though whether the review's recommendations might propose a strategy that seeks to make the process of applying/ renewing/ varying more work/ cost for the holder, just because inevitably if you set the bar higher (by making it cost more, requiring addition references, use of 'mentoring' programs etc) there will be fewer people who will bother to go through with it all and this approach won't cost public finances much more.  |
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Quoted: Word!Quoted: Quoted: I thought this thread was going to be about 50 cal Lol . Unfortunatly the guy at Bohica arms wont ship to the UK. Already went down that route wha I looked at there .50 cal uppers. Apparantly they wont grant him an export permit on .50 You won't get any fifties out of the states these days. Its been that way for quite some time. In this case however they've actually done you a favour. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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It seems a bit strange to me. I know you cant trust what's been in the press 100%. However it does sound like he was a few beers short of a six pack for some time (telling prostitute's he was going to kill people back in 2005. Long running joke with friends that he had a list of people to off and threatening people that he would shoot them when drunk. Even though they though it was said in jest ). I know he had had a SGC for 20 years. However he only had a FAC from 2007. He wasn't a member of the NRA or a club. The fact that he had previous convictions for theft and fraud in the 90's should have rung alarm bells that he wasn't a trustworthy character...............Well you would have thought it should have? I too have heard various stories third hand of alleged threats made by Bird and alleged "wierdness" exhibited by him. The area concerend has been described as close knit with everyone knowing each other very well. Bird was especially well known through his job which brought him into contact with the public. So, if these stories were true then it should have been common knowledge ? In that sort of area police officers live in the area they work ( unlike inner cities where they live outside the area ) so IF these stories were true, surely they would have been aware ? If he was not a member of a target club or NRA, surely he must have had permission to shoot on some land. In that case, was the owner of this land ( in a close knit community ) aware of the public perception of Bird ? I seriously hope that a whole community including police who lived in that community did not simply ignore a FAC /SGC holder exhibiting very worrying behaviour and not reporting it. I would imagine that its more likely to be the media over egging their stories. 
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The only thing they can do is go back to a 3 year renewal, or do more visits (annual visits?). Possibly make club membership compulsory even for overlanders and require attendance on a minimum number of occasions, and encourage the shooting community to police itself. Even that won't stop people flipping out. I don't think there is much that can be done, but it is right and propper that procedures be reviewed to ensure that if there was a missed report, or a suspicious issue about this guy then it can be adressed if needed. Reviews of this nature however often find that everything was done corrrectly, and that the events were something beyond control.
One thing is for certain, if someone is fine one day and goes Tonto the next, who's to blame? I don't think anyone is. Don't think the fact he was a gun owner is the key issue here either, despite the meida's desperate attempts to deum up some good old fashoined irrational hysteria...... he could just as easily have gone and bought a crossbow, or just grabbed a kitchen knife and attacked people...... a big bloke with a knife is going to be a right handful and do a lot of damage in a busy high street. Still haven't heard any more about the hospital visit and friend having to disarm him......
Sad days ahead...... funerals of the victims have started. My thoughts are still with the victims, their families and their communities.. 
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Funky is quite right. Mental health monitoring is not something that can effectively be carried out by a firearms licensing authority. Also, mental deterioration can be quite rapid, and therefore missed by periodic checks.
It is also correct to say that a deranged person could use a range of everyday household items, or a vehicle as effective weapons, but the problem is that most people perceive firearms as weapons per se. This is why they question whether they should be in private hands. the only way to counter this is to raise the profile of shooting as a legitimate and acceptable sporting activity. It's very sad that it was steadily heading this way before this tragic incident. |
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Funky is quite right. Mental health monitoring is not something that can effectively be carried out by a firearms licensing authority. Also, mental deterioration can be quite rapid, and therefore missed by periodic checks. It is also correct to say that a deranged person could use a range of everyday household items, or a vehicle as effective weapons, but the problem is that most people perceive firearms as weapons per se. This is why they question whether they should be in private hands. the only way to counter this is to raise the profile of shooting as a legitimate and acceptable sporting activity. It's very sad that it was steadily heading this way before this tragic incident. I was working down in London this week and had a meeting with my team. A few of them know I shoot and my Senior Officer was asking me about it. He seemed really interested and was asking how he could get into the sport. He was quite surprised at how stringent it is, and raised the question about Bird beinga clubman or an overland type. I suppose there will always be an element of the population who become very vocal and feed the media hype, but most people recognise that what happened has nothing to us, and there is nothing we could have done to influence the outcome. One of my colleagues us from (Whitehaven) was very supportive of legit shooting activities.... and spent some time expressing his disgust at the way the media have milked this tragedy. In the last few years we have seen lots of people becoming involved in our sport..... more and more shooters are up for it. I recently intorduced a neighbour I have known for some time to rifle shooting. He and his daughter who is 14 are really keen to get involved and are starting at the mini-rifle/ .22 target type shooting with a view to getting into centrefire. It's now down to BASC and the NRA to start getting public interest up, and manage the comms issues. Thery need to build on the coming olympics, capilaise on the media's hype on guns and pro-actively manage the media's perception of our sport instead of takling a permanent defensive stance. |
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It's now down to BASC and the NRA to start getting public interest up, and manage the comms issues. Thery need to build on the coming olympics, capilaise on the media's hype on guns and pro-actively manage the media's perception of our sport instead of takling a permanent defensive stance. Well the BASC have their new Media Centre, so will be interesting to see how they do. Maintaining a dignified silence won't get us anywhere... Incidentally, I wonder how many punters from the NRA Open Days take up shooting & obtain their own FAC's ? |
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Originally Posted By steven_uk
Incidentally, I wonder how many punters from the NRA Open Days take up shooting & obtain their own FAC's ? From speaking to people in the past not many want to take up shooting - they just want to have a go. Pretty much all of them enjoy it though, and you do see the same people coming back to more than one open day. |
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Originally Posted By steven_uk
Incidentally, I wonder how many punters from the NRA Open Days take up shooting & obtain their own FAC's ? From speaking to people in the past not many want to take up shooting - they just want to have a go. Pretty much all of them enjoy it though, and you do see the same people coming back to more than one open day. I do think open days should be encouraged if only to provide people with an insight into the sport...... people taking up the hobby is all well and good, but closing the doors to people who might have an interest and want to try it is only going to add to the secrecy and msytique of shooting sports and foster an attitude that gun owners are all anti-social gits who don't trust anyone. |
