|
Mark There is torture and there is torture, if you were in a box buried some place and I knew that your air supply was running out fast, I would torture the POS to find out where you where to save your life. The malicious torture is dirty, as I said if the ends justify the means... Tony |
Nasty, but as I wrote above, if I could get your position to save your life by stooping so low, and IMHO if he committed a crime he surrendered some of his rights by damaging your rights. Complicated mindset, probably dangerous, some shrink will read this and have alarms going off in his head for my sanity, fact is I may only know you through the web, but you have sent me something that I wanted, and offered me advice and help and you mean more to me than some POS. BTW., I'm not ghey.  Tony |
And where does that stop? Check out Tuol Sleng in Phnom Penh, Cambodia. An estimated 17,000 were imprisoned there and tortured by the Khmer Rouge to extract "cofessions". There were 12 known survivours. |
I know, and that is why I specifically stated that it was only to be condoned in a life threatening case, please read my post. Tony |
|
Sorry Tony, but in the time it took to write and reply to your original post, the discussion had moved on somewhat. I still think that people should know about Tuol Sleng though - it's a most disturbing place to visit and it was in full swing during the seventies. |
| And what if you didn't know if the guy you were torchering was the right guy or not? (which is probably the case the majority of times) hinking.gif |
|
All the what if's that come with hind sight, I'm just glad that I drive a truck and hard case pieces of metal for a living. I don't think that I could live with myself having let the wrong person die of suffocation while I was torturing the wrong person....... Reminds me a lot of the 42 day internment that has just been introduced in the UK..... Having been on a PGF tour of the Maze in the past, I can only imagine how most of us will feel when we end up in such an institute being held against our will for 42 days which can seem longer with the right methods of time room deception tricks, then there is the Psycho torture, that will leave you with scar tissue of a different kind.... Tony |
And they were only spared because they were deemed to have skills that could be useful to them. |
|
Indeed. Ironic then that one of those survivours, kept alive to paint portraits of Pol Pot, would use that skill to document the abuses that took place there http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c343/UKMuppet/Waterboard3-small.jpg |
The 42 day detention is not to allow persons to be interrogated by any torture or aggressive means. Whilst it would allow longer time for persons to be interviewed as the investigation develops, it is more to allow other enquiries to be made, often globally, data to be analysed, computer records, communications records etc, cctv records, further witnesses. We are talking serious allegations here and such investigations can be massive and take a lot of time and resources. In the meantime you don't want your suspect running around on bail, screwing things up, covering their tracks, destroying evidence, threatening witnesses, disappearing altogether or committing further acts. I don't see why there can't be periodic checks to ensure detention is still necessary, and if not they are released. The timescale is purely to do with the time required to make full enquiries. There is nothing to suggest that even if a suspect goes to the full 42 days detention, they should expect to be subject to torture during that time, or have I missed something?  |
I'm very hopeful that no-one would be tortured whilst being held for 42 days - but the whole focus of the argument is about the need for global investigation, computer analysis etc. in terrorist crimes. The police have sadi that so far no-one has been released because 28 days wasn't long enough and if it's a real threat to national security then the Civil Contingencies Bill allows very wide ranging powers to be taken by the government without consultation, including detention without trial for much longer than 42 days. The problem is that just like RIPA and the one sided extradition treaty with the US, these things are always demanded due to terrorism but they end up being used for dog fouling, rubbish bin checking and extraditing people for things that aren't even crimes in the UK. So far not one terrorist has been extradited from the UK to the US and until the US ratifies the treaty, there's no chance of getting any terrorists back to the UK. Sadly, it's a question of trust - in the same way that I don't trust Brown to spend my money more wisely than I do, I also don't trust him and his cronies to not use these powers in a political way (remember the old chap arrested by Sussex Police at the Labour Conference?) or for things that should be dealt with by normal coppers on the beat. Hang on, I think I just spotted the flaw in my argument - no actual coppers are on the beat in modern nu-labour Britain. They're all too busy with paperwork, speed camera admin, searching out "hate crimes", diversity seminars, testing tasers, "solving" crimes by issuing crime numbers by phone and handing out cautions by the bucket load... I don't think torture is good, and I'm sure it's not going to be used in a UK prison (just think of the compensation that would have to be paid!), but 42 days is just a number plucked from the air because 90 was too long last time and Brown wants to be seen to be doing something other than his usual, "hide, dither and then bottle it" strategy that has pushed his poll rating to a new low. |
|
42 days sucks! Frankly 28 days sucks! There are plenty of ways to ensure someone doesn't scarper without this bullshit. Charge him with a lesser offence and remand him /her in custody pending trial etc,etc. If you don't have enough evidence to go to the courts and at least ask for an extension after 28 days then either there aren't enough people on the case or you're completely incompetent. 42 days is more than enough time to completely %@ck up someones life, and perhaps that's the point! What happens when you get it wrong and arrest Mr family man ( it happens all too often especially when it's a "terror "thing with all the political pressure to get "a result") . By the end of that they will probably have lost their job, therefore their house, put their marriage at risk and risk having their kids taken into care. This country is headed in a very dangerous direction. |
|
|
Exactly. Our civil liberties, hard won over centuries, are being pissed away by knee jerk legislation drafted in panic over recent events. We've already established that freedom is worth the deaths of a few good people because we've often fought wars to obtain them in the first place. These Draconian measures weren't considered necessary in the 1980's when a lot more people were being blown up..... We're already seeing CCTV and other anti terror laws being abused by Local Councils for God's sake, or is dog fouling, school catchment area investigation and rubbish recycling a terrorist threat? rant over... for now  |
Nothing wrong with a righteous rant, and your concerns are not groundless. However, the reality is still that home grown & international terror threats are very complex to investigate. Things were far simpler in the 80's, for the terrorist and the investigator, but you still haven't chosen............. You can be afforded some protection by an imperfect system that will inevitably sometimes get it wrong.. or You can be afforded far less protection by a system hopelessly inadequate to deal with the threat.. That's as good as it will ever get............choose. You are of course free to come up with an effective alternative yourself. If you can it would make a lot of people very happy   |
I have chosen, I just don't agree with your description of the choices. Yes there will be times when you get it wrong but it shouldn't take 42 days to find out! And why should the state have pretty much automatic access to every detail of your life? In my view the law , as it stood (pre 9/11 never mind 7/11)was pretty much all that was needed, with a few exceptions like allowing phone tap evidence and other survellance tweaks. Banging someone up for 42 days won't stop terrorism, in fact it's just another injustice for the recruiters to point out to aid their argument. If it gets to the stage where you arrest someone then either they have already done the deed or you should have a pretty good idea they're about to, and who has been helping them, (or you just got very lucky!) I also don't believe the threat is as great as the powers that be make out. It's an overused ploy to keep the masses scared enough to sign away their rights without so much as a whimper, and unfortunately it appears to be working. So far we've lost the right to silence when arrested, it now implies guilt! We've lost the right to trial by jury for minor offences ( and fraud and terrorist charges too it seems!) We're increasingly losing freedom of speech with accusations of racism, sexism, or some other form of bigotry levelled at anyone who puts up an argument against the powers that be, or some self appointed twat with their own adgenda to force on us. We've more or less allowed them to introduce internment now as well. How long before the burden of proof lies with the defence rather than the prosecution? Paranoid? Maybe but I'm not walking into this with my eyes shut. |
Here here, well said that man. The only thing that I have a problem with has been marked above, from my (working class back ground) experience the defence always has to prove innocence as the CPS won't drag an innocent to court, we re in the UK not some banana republic country. Someone is selling the party line, and the customers are seeing the reality and don't want or like what they are being served, the result is an oppressed people who will probably sober up when they have their money and property taken from them as the state needs it for some greater good. Nobody likes to be a victim, it is a horrible situation to be in, I'd much rather be a victim once or twice in my life than on a daily basis, which is what we have become. They are supposed to represent protect and help me, really. Give me a dictatorship any day of the week, because I at least know what they are up to. Tony |
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.